Steep turns

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Bede
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Bede »

Conflicting Traffic wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:35 pm I would definitely assert that looking into a turn is part of a proper lookout. And I would hope that that's not controversial. However, it's very difficult to assess the quality of a candidate's lookout from the right seat: judging head movement is difficult, and judging eye movement is near impossible.
I've always told my students to verbalize when they're looking out during a flight test. Talk so much the PE gets sick of you.
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Re: Steep turns

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digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:31 am

That is a very good point. But that begs the question: why are we teaching steep turns? You are training it almost exclusively to pass the flight test. I've never encountered a situation in which a steep turn has been required, let alone a 180 or 360 degree one. I can't even imagine when that would be necessary, especially VFR.

If there are instructors who have this attitude towards this exercise, it explains a lot why current crops of pilots suck at it. For my work I need pilots who can do steep turns when I need them to. Occasionally they may have to do a greater than 270 degree turn. So many guys can't even do this +/-1000'.

As a private flyer, I regularly do steep turns. TBH, I don't even think of them as that, they're just turns. While have seen a lot of weird "Mountain turns" people have come up with, if you can do a 45 or a 60 degree banked coordinated turn, that's all you really need.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

Squaretail wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:01 am As a private flyer, I regularly do steep turns. TBH, I don't even think of them as that, they're just turns.
+1
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Re: Steep turns

Post by CpnCrunch »

photofly wrote: Other than in a climb, more or less every turn requiring any significant change in heading I will do at 45° bank.
With passengers?
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

Depends on the passenger; but you would be right to identify the presence of a passenger or passengers and their comfort as a constraint to manoeuvring freely. I did think of that, but didn’t write it in.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:31 am
Conflicting Traffic wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:35 pm But the problem(s) we have in assessing a proper lookout are peculiar to the flight test. On a training flight, when you're in an instructing role, it's much easier to address the lookout by asking questions, providing verbal prompting, varying exercises to vary the lookout, etc. The fact that we have difficulty testing the lookout does not mean that we should compromise on teaching it.
That is a very good point. But that begs the question: why are we teaching steep turns? You are training it almost exclusively to pass the flight test. I've never encountered a situation in which a steep turn has been required, let alone a 180 or 360 degree one. I can't even imagine when that would be necessary, especially VFR.
It's true (at least in my observation) that aviation has a deeply ingrained culture of "teaching to the test". Although, personally, I view this as dysfunctional/pathological and something to be actively avoided (except maybe during the actual exam-prep phase of training). I suspect (but can't prove) that the teach-to-the-test behaviour stems from the high instructor turnover and corresponding lack of professional educators in aviation.

Why are we teaching steep turns? To develop aircraft handling skills, coordination of the controls, and airmanship -- all of which come into play during steep turns in ways that are distinct from the other basic maneuvers.

To contradict the teach-to-the-test a little more, the FIG stipulates that steep turn instruction include a demonstration of "attitude and speed control during steep power-off descending turns - use of flaps", none of which is present on the flight test (at least not explicitly, it could be useful during a forced approach). Prior to this, in Advice to Instructors, the FIG includes the statement, "Some steep descending turns should be practised at low altitudes where they are likely to be used in a real emergency" -- which is also usually not the practice on the flight test.

As far as the practical usefulness of the steep turn, aside from the commentary others have provided, I've used steep turns on multiple occasions for collision avoidance. In fairness, they probably weren't absolutely necessary either time, but I like to have lots of margin when it comes to midair collisions. I also had a student many years ago who did a collision avoidance turn in the circuit on a solo flight and managed to turn it into a spiral dive. He recovered and all was well, but it was a great learning experience for me as a junior instructor (steep turns are important -- long before the flight test, and long after).
digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:31 am Some other points to consider:
1) how many seconds are there between a lookout in a spin exercise, and the moment that you are able to control the airplane again when you see an airplane? 10? 20 seconds? And we find that acceptable. Yet spotting potential traffic 10 seconds later in a steep turn, would be unacceptable?
Fair point, but allow me to offer a counter. Some years ago, I entered a spin with a student after a properly done HASEL check and after the very delay your talking about -- only to discover once in the spin that there was an aircraft directly in front of (i.e. - below) us. We got lucky -- it was a float plane down low and we had lots of vertical separation. But it was a wake-up call RE the quality of the lookout and the duration of the delay between the lookout and the maneuver. This experience is one of the reasons that I'm in favour of using wingovers for clearing turns, they're more effective than gentle/medium level turns -- especially for clearing above and below.
digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:31 am 2) how many degrees of vision do you gain by turning your head into the turn in a typical trainer (c172)? The wing is fairly low. Perhaps 10 or 20 degrees? Once established in the turn, you would see that traffic 5 seconds later anyway.
Also a fair point. My perspective is coloured at least partly by the fact that about a third of my instructing experience is under a bubble canopy. This issue is also one of the reasons that I view Cessnas as very poor trainers -- but that's a topic for another day.
digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:31 am 3) how many students, focusing on flying a steep turn accurately, would even recognize an airplane, if they look to the side? It's probably the exercise that has the most tunnel vision inducing effect.
How many students would recognize the difference between slow flight and a stall? None if we don't teach them.

How many students would recognize the beginnings of a porpoise on landing? None if we don't teach them.

... etc.

Helping student learn how to conduct and effective lookout while maneuvering is part of our job as flight instructors.
digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:31 am The reason I'm a bit surprised by this requirement, is that in 8 flight tests where I've had to demonstrate, and multiple more training events, nobody has ever told me, judged me or even given a remark that you can't just look at the nose for the exercise, and that looking into the turn during the steep turn exercise was so important. Perhaps I'm just a natural, or perhaps I shouldn't be flying (a sentiment with which some avcanada posters would agree I'm sure :wink: ), or perhaps it's not really judged *that* way. The general consensus seemed to be that the steep turn is basically one big lookout exercise, you're scanning the whole horizon...
I suspect that this goes back to the difficulty in assessing someone else's lookout when sitting in the right seat. As noted previously, I'm confident that I've awarded unfairly high assessments because of this. I'm also confident that I'm not the only one.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

Bede wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:42 am I've always told my students to verbalize when they're looking out during a flight test. Talk so much the PE gets sick of you.
This is excellent advice, and not just for the flight test.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by digits_ »

Conflicting Traffic wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:14 pm
To contradict the teach-to-the-test a little more, the FIG stipulates that steep turn instruction include a demonstration of "attitude and speed control during steep power-off descending turns - use of flaps", none of which is present on the flight test (at least not explicitly, it could be useful during a forced approach). Prior to this, in Advice to Instructors, the FIG includes the statement, "Some steep descending turns should be practised at low altitudes where they are likely to be used in a real emergency" -- which is also usually not the practice on the flight test.

As far as the practical usefulness of the steep turn, aside from the commentary others have provided, I've used steep turns on multiple occasions for collision avoidance. In fairness, they probably weren't absolutely necessary either time, but I like to have lots of margin when it comes to midair collisions. I also had a student many years ago who did a collision avoidance turn in the circuit on a solo flight and managed to turn it into a spiral dive. He recovered and all was well, but it was a great learning experience for me as a junior instructor (steep turns are important -- long before the flight test, and long after).
Those are great examples of real life situations, but in none of those cases it's required to keep your altitude, or to turn at exactly 45 degrees. The situations you describe can be done without ever looking inside. In those cases you do look outside and to the side, to find your landing spot or to avoid that traffic, but at no point is there any desire to maintain a certain altitude or bank angle. Even the precise airspeed is -up to a point- irrelevant.

That is completely opposite to the flight test exercise, in which precise altitude, speed and attitude control is required.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:08 pm Those are great examples of real life situations, but in none of those cases it's required to keep your altitude, or to turn at exactly 45 degrees. The situations you describe can be done without ever looking inside. In those cases you do look outside and to the side, to find your landing spot or to avoid that traffic, but at no point is there any desire to maintain a certain altitude or bank angle. Even the precise airspeed is -up to a point- irrelevant.

That is completely opposite to the flight test exercise, in which precise altitude, speed and attitude control is required.
In all honesty ±100 feet and ±10 knots and ±10° of bank isn't what a decent pilot considers precise. If absent a flight test you're not motivated to keep inside even those generous margins, then you're not really doing a turn at all, more a bit of modern interpretive dance somewhere up in the air.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

double post
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Re: Steep turns

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:21 pm
digits_ wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:08 pm Those are great examples of real life situations, but in none of those cases it's required to keep your altitude, or to turn at exactly 45 degrees. The situations you describe can be done without ever looking inside. In those cases you do look outside and to the side, to find your landing spot or to avoid that traffic, but at no point is there any desire to maintain a certain altitude or bank angle. Even the precise airspeed is -up to a point- irrelevant.

That is completely opposite to the flight test exercise, in which precise altitude, speed and attitude control is required.
In all honesty ±100 feet and ±10 knots and ±10° of bank isn't what a decent pilot considers precise. If absent a flight test you're not motivated to keep inside even those generous margins, then you're not really doing a turn at all, more a bit of modern interpretive dance somewhere up in the air.
Am I meant to believe that if you are turning to avoid a collision that you would spend any amount of time in determining what bank angle or altitude you would fly instead of just quickly turning where you want to go?

Similarly if you are trying to make a field for an emergency landing, would you choose a set bank angle and heading or would you just turn for whatever works?

In order to be precise you need to have a fixed target value. The above mentioned situations that may warrant a steep turn do not have such target value. They fall under the 'do whatever works'-category. Completely different than a flight test steep turn.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:07 pm In order to be precise you need to have a fixed target value. The above mentioned situations that may warrant a steep turn do not have such target value. They fall under the 'do whatever works'-category. Completely different than a flight test steep turn.
Agreed. But there are only two categories of turn here - to adopt your nomenclature, the "do whatever it takes" and "every other kind of turn". That is, a flight test steep turn falls in the same "category" of turn as a regular, everyday turn. Because it is a regular, everyday turn. It's a precision manoeuvre only in the sense that a tolerance is specified. It's definitely not a "high precision" manoeuvre, and the tolerance specified for the flight test, in recognition of that fact, is quite generous. Given that it is an everyday turn, it demands the same kind of observation in the direction of travel as any other everyday turn.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by Avi-Nation »

I fly a SP model with G1000 and I find when the arrow is on the first notch on the attitude indicator, I get a steep turn with minimal climb/descent. I know you should be looking outside, but add it in your scan, see what happens.
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Re: Steep turns

Post by digits_ »

Avi-Nation wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:26 pm I fly a SP model with G1000 and I find when the arrow is on the first notch on the attitude indicator, I get a steep turn with minimal climb/descent. I know you should be looking outside, but add it in your scan, see what happens.
If you're using a G1000 you might as well just enable the flight path vector and move that one over the horizon ;)
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Re: Steep turns

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

digits_ wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:40 pm
Avi-Nation wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:26 pm I fly a SP model with G1000 and I find when the arrow is on the first notch on the attitude indicator, I get a steep turn with minimal climb/descent. I know you should be looking outside, but add it in your scan, see what happens.
If you're using a G1000 you might as well just enable the flight path vector and move that one over the horizon ;)
Ah yes, fly « the green bird ».

Must admit that years back I watched a 400 hour owner pilot absolutely nail steep turns in his high performance turbo prop. I had never seen anything quite like it before… Then he explained it to me. Simple as apple pie those G1000’s are.

TPC
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