Foreign DEC

[Greenhouse]

Anyone that can verify if this is true?

[digits_]

Shall we all register online to fill up the spots?

[Tbayer2021]

I remember the question of Flair hiring foreigners came up a while ago and the CP quickly came to their defence to shut down that "rumour", yet here we are. Some much class from that guy. I guess we can't ask much of an individual who knowingly and gladly disregarded WestJet pilot's scope challenge when Swoop started up. Jesus why is Canada so full of scums like this waiting for any chance they can get to stab someone on the back just to get a leg up.

[tbaylx]

I see the internet heroes of ignorance are back.

What I said was that Flair is not and will not pursue Temporary Foreign Workers which involves hiring foreign pilot license and passport holders to come on a temporary Foreign License Validation Certificate and operate Canadian aircraft for a period of time similar to the program that Sunwing has used seasonally.

What we have done and are continuing to do, is recruit pilots that do not hold Canadian passports. We have recruited some Ukrainian nationals under the Canadian government's CUAET program and we are actively recruiting experienced pilots from South Africa. These foreign nationals will be supported in order to immigrate to Canada, obtain Permanent Residency for themselves and their families, and eventually Canadian Citizenship. They have the right to work in Canada, same as any other Canadian pilot, and will have obtained a Canadian ATPL and medical before they operate any Canadian registered aircraft.

It's a time-consuming, expensive process and has nothing to do with the TFW program used by other airlines in Canada. It provides the opportunity for foreign nationals who wish to immigrate to Canada an opportunity for Canadian citizenship for their families and helps bring qualified professionals to Canada who will contribute to our industry and our country for years to come.

[Inverted2]

I’m not opposed to this. Many of us are wishing the same thing to happen south of the border so don’t be a hypocrite. I’d love to flee this over-taxed socialist shithole at the first opportunity. The South Africans or whoever are welcome to have my job if I leave.

[Cavalier44]

I see the internet heroes of ignorance are back.

What I said was that Flair is not and will not pursue Temporary Foreign Workers which involves hiring foreign pilot license and passport holders to come on a temporary Foreign License Validation Certificate and operate Canadian aircraft for a period of time similar to the program that Sunwing has used seasonally.

What we have done and are continuing to do, is recruit pilots that do not hold Canadian passports. We have recruited some Ukrainian nationals under the Canadian government's CUAET program and we are actively recruiting experienced pilots from South Africa. These foreign nationals will be supported in order to immigrate to Canada, obtain Permanent Residency for themselves and their families, and eventually Canadian Citizenship. They have the right to work in Canada, same as any other Canadian pilot, and will have obtained a Canadian ATPL and medical before they operate any Canadian registered aircraft.

It's a time-consuming, expensive process and has nothing to do with the TFW program used by other airlines in Canada. It provides the opportunity for foreign nationals who wish to immigrate to Canada an opportunity for Canadian citizenship for their families and helps bring qualified professionals to Canada who will contribute to our industry and our country for years to come.

Perhaps the compensation at Flair should be increased to a level that would attract experienced Canadian candidates from other carriers, rather than having to go through this "expensive, time-consuming process" to hire foreign nationals. It can't be all that expensive of a process if it's more economical than the alternative, i.e., paying a premium wage to attract experienced Direct Entry Captains.

At least the South Africans will get to work for Flair now instead of EVAS - an improvement to be sure.

I’m not opposed to this. Many of us are wishing the same thing to happen south of the border so don’t be a hypocrite. I’d love to flee this over-taxed socialist shithole at the first opportunity. The South Africans or whoever are welcome to have my job if I leave.

The Americans don't want us going to work there for the same reason we shouldn't want foreign nationals coming here. Having a pool of cheap labour from outside the country drives down wages by decreasing demand for local, experienced pilots. This is not a good thing for the pilot group in Canada, or in the United States.

[tbaylx]

I see the internet heroes of ignorance are back.

What I said was that Flair is not and will not pursue Temporary Foreign Workers which involves hiring foreign pilot license and passport holders to come on a temporary Foreign License Validation Certificate and operate Canadian aircraft for a period of time similar to the program that Sunwing has used seasonally.

What we have done and are continuing to do, is recruit pilots that do not hold Canadian passports. We have recruited some Ukrainian nationals under the Canadian government's CUAET program and we are actively recruiting experienced pilots from South Africa. These foreign nationals will be supported in order to immigrate to Canada, obtain Permanent Residency for themselves and their families, and eventually Canadian Citizenship. They have the right to work in Canada, same as any other Canadian pilot, and will have obtained a Canadian ATPL and medical before they operate any Canadian registered aircraft.

It's a time-consuming, expensive process and has nothing to do with the TFW program used by other airlines in Canada. It provides the opportunity for foreign nationals who wish to immigrate to Canada an opportunity for Canadian citizenship for their families and helps bring qualified professionals to Canada who will contribute to our industry and our country for years to come.

Perhaps the compensation at Flair should be increased to a level that would attract experienced Canadian candidates from other carriers, rather than having to go through this "expensive, time-consuming process" to hire foreign nationals. It can't be all that expensive of a process if it's more economical than the alternative, i.e., paying a premium wage to attract experienced Direct Entry Captains.

At least the South Africans will get to work for Flair now instead of EVAS - an improvement to be sure.

I’m not opposed to this. Many of us are wishing the same thing to happen south of the border so don’t be a hypocrite. I’d love to flee this over-taxed socialist shithole at the first opportunity. The South Africans or whoever are welcome to have my job if I leave.

The Americans don't want us going to work there for the same reason we shouldn't want foreign nationals coming here. Having a pool of cheap labour from outside the country drives down wages by decreasing demand for local, experienced pilots. This is not a good thing for the pilot group in Canada, or in the United States.

In case you missed it we are involved in contract negotiations to do exactly that. Regardless of the pay stealing pilots from other companies is a bandaid solution and moves the problem to another carrier and does little to address the underlying issue of not enough experienced 705 pilots in Canada to support the growth currently occurring.

Perhaps a recession will come along and temporarily fix that problem but Flair is not going to wait to see what happens. We'd prefer to address it by becoming a competitive career airline in Canada and at the same time increase the number of experienced pilots in the country as well as pursue outreach programs that involve getting more young Canadians to pursue an aviation career.

Immigrating a few pilots to Canada is not going to fix the issue at an industry level. It requires a multi-pronged approach and decades of work.

[Soyer]

[

The Americans don't want us going to work there for the same reason we shouldn't want foreign nationals coming here. Having a pool of cheap labour from outside the country drives down wages by decreasing demand for local, experienced pilots. This is not a good thing for the pilot group in Canada, or in the United States.
[/quote]

Tell that to Trudeau and team who want 500,000 immigrants a year! If we are to bring in immigrants than lets bring in trained and skilled individuals who can contribute. Or is the concept to only permit immigrants in area outside of piloting? But then you answered the question yourself with the comment that Flair should raise raises to 'steal' other pilots! he issue in Canada and in many places is a lack of experience not of pilots in general.

[digits_]

Regardless of the pay stealing pilots from other companies is a bandaid solution and moves the problem to another carrier and does little to address the underlying issue of not enough experienced 705 pilots in Canada to support the growth currently occurring.

How can you have a discussion about this topic 'regardless of pay'? Pay is *the* most important tool an employer has to attract more employees.

You want a bigger pool of pilots? Pay them more so more people get their licenses and stick it out to make it to the airlines. It's really not that complicated...

If Flair (or any other airline) was paying an above average wage on a global scale, and they can't find any pilots, then you could justify going on a hiring spree abroad.

[2112]

Regardless of the pay stealing pilots from other companies is a bandaid solution and moves the problem to another carrier and does little to address the underlying issue of not enough experienced 705 pilots in Canada to support the growth currently occurring.

How can you have a discussion about this topic 'regardless of pay'? Pay is *the* most important tool an employer has to attract more employees.

You want a bigger pool of pilots? Pay them more so more people get their licenses and stick it out to make it to the airlines. It's really not that complicated...

If Flair (or any other airline) was paying an above average wage on a global scale, and they can't find any pilots, then you could justify going on a hiring spree abroad.

Agreed, I'm no 705 Die hard but would give it a shot if any 705 operation in this country offered a living wage for right seaters, I Have 6k hours with an ATPL and I'm sure there are many of us waiting in the wings for whichever airline raises the bar first.

[fish4life]

I see the internet heroes of ignorance are back.

What I said was that Flair is not and will not pursue Temporary Foreign Workers which involves hiring foreign pilot license and passport holders to come on a temporary Foreign License Validation Certificate and operate Canadian aircraft for a period of time similar to the program that Sunwing has used seasonally.

What we have done and are continuing to do, is recruit pilots that do not hold Canadian passports. We have recruited some Ukrainian nationals under the Canadian government's CUAET program and we are actively recruiting experienced pilots from South Africa. These foreign nationals will be supported in order to immigrate to Canada, obtain Permanent Residency for themselves and their families, and eventually Canadian Citizenship. They have the right to work in Canada, same as any other Canadian pilot, and will have obtained a Canadian ATPL and medical before they operate any Canadian registered aircraft.

It's a time-consuming, expensive process and has nothing to do with the TFW program used by other airlines in Canada. It provides the opportunity for foreign nationals who wish to immigrate to Canada an opportunity for Canadian citizenship for their families and helps bring qualified professionals to Canada who will contribute to our industry and our country for years to come.

Perhaps the compensation at Flair should be increased to a level that would attract experienced Canadian candidates from other carriers, rather than having to go through this "expensive, time-consuming process" to hire foreign nationals. It can't be all that expensive of a process if it's more economical than the alternative, i.e., paying a premium wage to attract experienced Direct Entry Captains.

At least the South Africans will get to work for Flair now instead of EVAS - an improvement to be sure.

I’m not opposed to this. Many of us are wishing the same thing to happen south of the border so don’t be a hypocrite. I’d love to flee this over-taxed socialist shithole at the first opportunity. The South Africans or whoever are welcome to have my job if I leave.

The Americans don't want us going to work there for the same reason we shouldn't want foreign nationals coming here. Having a pool of cheap labour from outside the country drives down wages by decreasing demand for local, experienced pilots. This is not a good thing for the pilot group in Canada, or in the United States.

In case you missed it we are involved in contract negotiations to do exactly that. Regardless of the pay stealing pilots from other companies is a bandaid solution and moves the problem to another carrier and does little to address the underlying issue of not enough experienced 705 pilots in Canada to support the growth currently occurring.

Perhaps a recession will come along and temporarily fix that problem but Flair is not going to wait to see what happens. We'd prefer to address it by becoming a competitive career airline in Canada and at the same time increase the number of experienced pilots in the country as well as pursue outreach programs that involve getting more young Canadians to pursue an aviation career.

Immigrating a few pilots to Canada is not going to fix the issue at an industry level. It requires a multi-pronged approach and decades of work.

That’s BS there is plenty of experienced 705 pilots available to sit left seat but the pay isn’t there to leave their jobs. A company like Flair might need to pay 500k/ yr to lure away experienced high time FO’s from AC and WJ but the experience is there it’s just the sub par conditions that are the issue.

[Arnie Pye]

Regardless of the pay stealing pilots from other companies is a bandaid solution and moves the problem to another carrier and does little to address the underlying issue of not enough experienced 705 pilots in Canada to support the growth currently occurring.

Immigrating a few pilots to Canada is not going to fix the issue at an industry level. It requires a multi-pronged approach and decades of work.

Tell that to just about every US carrier who are all happily putting up their WAWCON in order to be competitive. It also seems to work for Chinese and Middle Eastern carriers.

I would bet that if you offered DEC's $500/hour you'd have people leaving AC and WestJet in throngs. Heck, you'd probably have Canadians at EK coming back here with those rates. Might even attract a few 'Merikans.

Oh, and WestJet's staffing problem is just that: Westjet's staffing problem. Don't think for one second that they aren't scheming of ways to put Flair out of business tomorrow.

Hiring South African pilots won't solve the problem. Once they get here and find out how much stuff costs and how little they make after tax, they will join the 25% of pilots hitting the street for greener pastures.

Maybe we need to look at the root cause of the lack of pilots in Canada. Hint: it's because any tradie just out of school can make more money unclogging toilets than you can as a Captain at most airlines in Canada.

[canadian_aviator_4]

This is bad!

[MAX8 Driver]

This is NOTHING like a TFW.

Hiring qualified candidates with a Canadian ATPL, Canadian Medical, and the right to work in Canada. What's the problem?

[digits_]

This is NOTHING like a TFW.

Hiring qualified candidates with a Canadian ATPL, Canadian Medical, and the right to work in Canada. What's the problem?

That companies apparently prefer to spend more money (based on the info in the posts above) on foreign pilots instead of raising wages for the pilots that are already in the country.

If they want fo hire South African nationals to fly here after they get here, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But they are spending extra money on getting them here. That's the problem.

[YC87DRVR]

Without knowing of the WAWCON’s for a 737 skipper in Johannesburg, let me guess their reasoning for choosing that as their first pilot road show. Only place in the world with lower paid 737 drivers, tell me I’m wrong???

[GRK2]

Without knowing of the WAWCON’s for a 737 skipper in Johannesburg, let me guess their reasoning for choosing that as their first pilot road show. Only place in the world with lower paid 737 drivers, tell me I’m wrong???

https://simpleflying.com/south-africa-m ... suspended/

You could start here, do a little research instead of guessing.

If you think it's bad here at home, dig around the SA job scene and you'll know why some are hoping to get out. "TIA!" (and that's not Thanks In Advance...)

[abczz]

Can you share more details about the immigration process? Will Flair assist with the work visa application (LMIA) or some other stream for South African nationals only?

[Apestogetherstrong]

Can you share more details about the immigration process? Will Flair assist with the work visa application (LMIA) or some other stream for South African nationals only?

I dont think Flair can give LMIA’s because for that Flair would need to show that they could not find a qualified candidate based on minimum requirements.

[negroni]

I see the internet heroes of ignorance are back.

What I said was that Flair is not and will not pursue Temporary Foreign Workers which involves hiring foreign pilot license and passport holders to come on a temporary Foreign License Validation Certificate and operate Canadian aircraft for a period of time similar to the program that Sunwing has used seasonally.

What we have done and are continuing to do, is recruit pilots that do not hold Canadian passports. We have recruited some Ukrainian nationals under the Canadian government's CUAET program and we are actively recruiting experienced pilots from South Africa. These foreign nationals will be supported in order to immigrate to Canada, obtain Permanent Residency for themselves and their families, and eventually Canadian Citizenship. They have the right to work in Canada, same as any other Canadian pilot, and will have obtained a Canadian ATPL and medical before they operate any Canadian registered aircraft.

It's a time-consuming, expensive process and has nothing to do with the TFW program used by other airlines in Canada. It provides the opportunity for foreign nationals who wish to immigrate to Canada an opportunity for Canadian citizenship for their families and helps bring qualified professionals to Canada who will contribute to our industry and our country for years to come.

Scab

[GRK2]

I see the internet heroes of ignorance are back.

What I said was that Flair is not and will not pursue Temporary Foreign Workers which involves hiring foreign pilot license and passport holders to come on a temporary Foreign License Validation Certificate and operate Canadian aircraft for a period of time similar to the program that Sunwing has used seasonally.

What we have done and are continuing to do, is recruit pilots that do not hold Canadian passports. We have recruited some Ukrainian nationals under the Canadian government's CUAET program and we are actively recruiting experienced pilots from South Africa. These foreign nationals will be supported in order to immigrate to Canada, obtain Permanent Residency for themselves and their families, and eventually Canadian Citizenship. They have the right to work in Canada, same as any other Canadian pilot, and will have obtained a Canadian ATPL and medical before they operate any Canadian registered aircraft.

It's a time-consuming, expensive process and has nothing to do with the TFW program used by other airlines in Canada. It provides the opportunity for foreign nationals who wish to immigrate to Canada an opportunity for Canadian citizenship for their families and helps bring qualified professionals to Canada who will contribute to our industry and our country for years to come.

Scab

"a person who refuses to strike or to join a labor union or who takes over the job responsibilities of a striking worker."
verb.

So you are incorrect. Before you post something you think is clever or inflammatory, I'd suggest actually understanding what it is you're trying to say. In this case you simply look ignorant.

Interestingly, your less than erudite attempt to inflame has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. Try again.

[eurotrash]

It's a time-consuming, expensive process and has nothing to do with the TFW program used by other airlines in Canada. It provides the opportunity for foreign nationals who wish to immigrate to Canada an opportunity for Canadian citizenship for their families and helps bring qualified professionals to Canada who will contribute to our industry and our country for years to come.

Why don't you just invest in Canadian pilots?

Ie pay them a liveable wage.

It's great you're helping out the poor pilots of Johannesburg but what about our own?

[RoAF-Mig21]

To play devil's advocate a bit:

Funny how some here are very upset about foreign pilots coming here, but many of us would go to the USA in a heartbeat if offered the opportunity to fly for United, Delta, American or Alaska

Don't forget about Canadian pilots flying (or that have flown) for Cathay, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Fly Dubai, Korean etc.

Again, just pointing out a little hypochrisy... (and I'm guilty of that myself)

BUT:

For the record, I'm against hiring foreign pilots under the pretext of "We can't find enough guys and gals here". Yes, you can if you're willing to pay more. Not willing to pay adequate wages is not a reason to import cheap labor.

With that being said, if South Africans, Ukranians, etc. want to immigrate to Canada and start a life here, as legal landed immigrantS, I'm okay with that, but you go though the proper immigration channels (like my family did back in the 90s).

[Jean-Pierre]

[RoAF-Mig21]

Jesus Christ. I read that article and I'm... Jesus Christ...