How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

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How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by Dronepiper »

I just learned that westjet encore flight attendants start at $26.94/hr.

26.94 x 75 (Monthly Guarantee) x 12 months a year = $24,246/yr

Alberta’s min wage is $15/hr x 40 hour/week x 52 weeks = $31,200/year. This is almost $7000 higher than encore.

How is this legal??? Even after 4 years, it only goes up to $32/hr ($28.8k/year), which is still less than min wage.

Why do people even do this job?
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by digits_ »

Is the 26 dollars paid per flying hour or per actual worked hour?
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by rookiepilot »

Dronepiper wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:40 pm I just learned that westjet encore flight attendants start at $26.94/hr.

26.94 x 75 (Monthly Guarantee) x 12 months a year = $24,246/yr

Alberta’s min wage is $15/hr x 40 hour/week x 52 weeks = $31,200/year. This is almost $7000 higher than encore.

How is this legal??? Even after 4 years, it only goes up to $32/hr ($28.8k/year), which is still less than min wage.

Why do people even do this job?
This math is doing exactly what the Ont. union is trying to do with the media re the education workers.

Take their average annual pay, which is heavily skewed towards part time jobs, and act like its based on a 40 hour workweek, and claim poverty. And the public is buying it. Their benefits package the private sector can only look at and drool.

Gee. If I worked one day a week, made 10K for the year, the union would be blasting to the media “they are working this awful job for 15K a year”. Ridiculous.

The union lost any support from me there.

We can talk about wages and working conditions, I am totally supportive….but Don’t lie. Part time is part time.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by nutlord »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:18 pm
Dronepiper wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:40 pm I just learned that westjet encore flight attendants start at $26.94/hr.

26.94 x 75 (Monthly Guarantee) x 12 months a year = $24,246/yr

Alberta’s min wage is $15/hr x 40 hour/week x 52 weeks = $31,200/year. This is almost $7000 higher than encore.

How is this legal??? Even after 4 years, it only goes up to $32/hr ($28.8k/year), which is still less than min wage.

Why do people even do this job?
This math is doing exactly what the Ont. union is trying to do with the media re the education workers.

Take their average annual pay, which is heavily skewed towards part time jobs, and act like its based on a 40 hour workweek, and claim poverty. And the public is buying it. Their benefits package the private sector can only look at and drool.

Gee. If I worked one day a week, made 10K for the year, the union would be blasting to the media “they are working this awful job for 15K a year”. Ridiculous.

The union lost any support from me there.

We can talk about wages and working conditions, I am totally supportive….but Don’t lie. Part time is part time.
I always thought pilots and flight attendants are paid an hourly wage based on time airborne, not all the prep, commuting, and time spent on the ground still doing the job. They work more than 80 hours a month, but their salaries are paid per hour of flight, no?
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by cdnavater »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:18 pm
Dronepiper wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:40 pm I just learned that westjet encore flight attendants start at $26.94/hr.

26.94 x 75 (Monthly Guarantee) x 12 months a year = $24,246/yr

Alberta’s min wage is $15/hr x 40 hour/week x 52 weeks = $31,200/year. This is almost $7000 higher than encore.

How is this legal??? Even after 4 years, it only goes up to $32/hr ($28.8k/year), which is still less than min wage.

Why do people even do this job?
This math is doing exactly what the Ont. union is trying to do with the media re the education workers.

Take their average annual pay, which is heavily skewed towards part time jobs, and act like its based on a 40 hour workweek, and claim poverty. And the public is buying it. Their benefits package the private sector can only look at and drool.

Gee. If I worked one day a week, made 10K for the year, the union would be blasting to the media “they are working this awful job for 15K a year”. Ridiculous.

The union lost any support from me there.

We can talk about wages and working conditions, I am totally supportive….but Don’t lie. Part time is part time.
Rookie,
You yourself have very little support here and the above ignorance is the reason.
Flight attendants and pilots do not work part time, we are paid on a credit hour system.
Essentially, park brake off to park brake on, to the laymen this is when we push back from the gate until we arrive at the next gate, so all the other duties are for free. We basically get paid half the time we are at work unless you get some longer sectors, then it can be more productive. My 80 credits is usually based on spending 140-160 hours at work, not including the time away from home on the overnights.
You can call us idiots for this as I would much prefer to be paid for every minute I’m at work on duty but this is not how it works. When I go on a four day pairing, a good high credit pairing has me being paid 26 credits for four days works. Of course the better seniority the better the pairing you can get.
As you can see, if we are already working a full time schedule, it doesn’t leave any time for another job to make up for the lower wages.
As for how they get away with this, I can only assume because it’s in the contract that we are only paid for the credits, nobody’s bothered to challenge the minimum wage aspect, since the actual “hourly” wage is above minimum wage.
You can take any of our “hourly” wages, cut it in half and that’s what we get per year based on 40 hours per week. I did it just now and it’s pretty much exactly that.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by rando »

Full time job would be about 2000 hours a year.

FA probably averages 135 “duty hours” a month and gets paid 80 credit.

Likely being compensated between 15-18 dollars per hour depending on how productive their schedule is. Then you can also choose to be less productive if it’s the schedule you want, or choose more productive once you have more seniority.

Obviously FA’s don’t get started in this job for the money, for many it’s just the experience, the desire to travel, or spending a few years figuring things out before their next step. It’s not a job for everyone, but it’s also easy to find applicants that meet the requirements. Many probably just plan to spend a few years and have some fun travelling a bit, and some will make a career where it becomes more reasonably compensated with a few years of seniority into it. Maybe not at encore but other airlines will pay better.

So I’d say they are compensated similar to other service industry jobs, the catch is you have to have the desire to be away from home and in the road. If you want to be home every night this job is not going to be for you.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by rookiepilot »

cdnavater wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:03 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:18 pm
Dronepiper wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:40 pm I just learned that westjet encore flight attendants start at $26.94/hr.

26.94 x 75 (Monthly Guarantee) x 12 months a year = $24,246/yr

Alberta’s min wage is $15/hr x 40 hour/week x 52 weeks = $31,200/year. This is almost $7000 higher than encore.

How is this legal??? Even after 4 years, it only goes up to $32/hr ($28.8k/year), which is still less than min wage.

Why do people even do this job?
This math is doing exactly what the Ont. union is trying to do with the media re the education workers.

Take their average annual pay, which is heavily skewed towards part time jobs, and act like its based on a 40 hour workweek, and claim poverty. And the public is buying it. Their benefits package the private sector can only look at and drool.

Gee. If I worked one day a week, made 10K for the year, the union would be blasting to the media “they are working this awful job for 15K a year”. Ridiculous.

The union lost any support from me there.

We can talk about wages and working conditions, I am totally supportive….but Don’t lie. Part time is part time.
Rookie,
You yourself have very little support here and the above ignorance is the reason.
Flight attendants and pilots do not work part time, we are paid on a credit hour system.
Essentially, park brake off to park brake on, to the laymen this is when we push back from the gate until we arrive at the next gate, so all the other duties are for free. We basically get paid half the time we are at work unless you get some longer sectors, then it can be more productive. My 80 credits is usually based on spending 140-160 hours at work, not including the time away from home on the overnights.
You can call us idiots for this as I would much prefer to be paid for every minute I’m at work on duty but this is not how it works. When I go on a four day pairing, a good high credit pairing has me being paid 26 credits for four days works. Of course the better seniority the better the pairing you can get.
As you can see, if we are already working a full time schedule, it doesn’t leave any time for another job to make up for the lower wages.
As for how they get away with this, I can only assume because it’s in the contract that we are only paid for the credits, nobody’s bothered to challenge the minimum wage aspect, since the actual “hourly” wage is above minimum wage.
You can take any of our “hourly” wages, cut it in half and that’s what we get per year based on 40 hours per week. I did it just now and it’s pretty much exactly that.
My argument isn’t with a debate on your working conditions, its with the simplistic math presented.

FIRST: The Alberta minimum wage is $15 per hour. Period. There is no Minimum monthly guarantee on hours paid in government legislation. The terminology is false.

https://www.govdocs.com/canada-minimum-wage/


Anyway my sympathy has been there in the past for your industry, and is now extremely limited for posts like these.

As a fellow pilot too — I have made good faith posts on ways to manage money, negotiate, get more compensation, like working overseas, and the response has been juvenile level trolling.

Why aren’t you getting your union to negotiate paid ground time, as is happening in the USA?

It’s also your problem if you think, as most everyone here seems to think,that every brand new FO and FA deserves a 1.2 million house out of the gate. We have nothing to discuss.

The answer to the poster and to everyone “why do we do this job”

DON’T, then. You knew the terms!!

Take it up with your employer, with your union, or post UNDER YOUR OWN NAME to advocate publicly for your fellow workers, instead of being an anonymous coward.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by cdnavater »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:36 pm
cdnavater wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:03 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:18 pm

This math is doing exactly what the Ont. union is trying to do with the media re the education workers.

Take their average annual pay, which is heavily skewed towards part time jobs, and act like its based on a 40 hour workweek, and claim poverty. And the public is buying it. Their benefits package the private sector can only look at and drool.

Gee. If I worked one day a week, made 10K for the year, the union would be blasting to the media “they are working this awful job for 15K a year”. Ridiculous.

The union lost any support from me there.

We can talk about wages and working conditions, I am totally supportive….but Don’t lie. Part time is part time.
Rookie,
You yourself have very little support here and the above ignorance is the reason.
Flight attendants and pilots do not work part time, we are paid on a credit hour system.
Essentially, park brake off to park brake on, to the laymen this is when we push back from the gate until we arrive at the next gate, so all the other duties are for free. We basically get paid half the time we are at work unless you get some longer sectors, then it can be more productive. My 80 credits is usually based on spending 140-160 hours at work, not including the time away from home on the overnights.
You can call us idiots for this as I would much prefer to be paid for every minute I’m at work on duty but this is not how it works. When I go on a four day pairing, a good high credit pairing has me being paid 26 credits for four days works. Of course the better seniority the better the pairing you can get.
As you can see, if we are already working a full time schedule, it doesn’t leave any time for another job to make up for the lower wages.
As for how they get away with this, I can only assume because it’s in the contract that we are only paid for the credits, nobody’s bothered to challenge the minimum wage aspect, since the actual “hourly” wage is above minimum wage.
You can take any of our “hourly” wages, cut it in half and that’s what we get per year based on 40 hours per week. I did it just now and it’s pretty much exactly that.
My argument isn’t with a debate on your working conditions, its with the simplistic math presented.

FIRST: The Alberta minimum wage is $15 per hour. Period. There is no Minimum monthly guarantee on hours paid in government legislation. The terminology is false.

https://www.govdocs.com/canada-minimum-wage/


Anyway my sympathy has been there in the past for your industry, and is now extremely limited for posts like these.

As a fellow pilot too — I have made good faith posts on ways to manage money, negotiate, get more compensation, like working overseas, and the response has been juvenile level trolling.

Why aren’t you getting your union to negotiate paid ground time, as is happening in the USA?

It’s also your problem if you think, as most everyone here seems to think,that every brand new FO and FA deserves a 1.2 million house out of the gate. We have nothing to discuss.

The answer to the poster and to everyone “why do we do this job”

DON’T, then. You knew the terms!!

Take it up with your employer, with your union, or post UNDER YOUR OWN NAME to advocate publicly for your fellow workers, instead of being an anonymous coward.
No, the math is correct for the most part, you insinuated that this poster was trying to mislead but it’s reality based on what I told you on how our pay works, we are full time employees, not part time!
As I said, based on 80 credits per month if you take my hourly wage and divide it in half, then multiply it by the full time annual hours, it almost exactly what my annual salary is. Do you think it’s a coincidence?
They(Airline management) want the public to think I make 150/hr, hell I even have to explain to my bank that don’t actually make 150/hr because I’m only paid for half my time.
As for the US, I’m pretty sure they are still paid on the monthly credit system, just much more per credit.
What did I say that has you so upset,
This?;

ig·no·rance
/ˈiɡnərəns/
noun: ignorance
“lack of knowledge or information”

You go off half cocked, lacking key information about our “part time jobs” and your rant about unions lying, blah blah blah!
I explain the reality and somehow I’m an anonymous coward, anonymous yes, coward, well I would have had the same conversation with you in person.
You kind of remind me of the old man yelling at clouds
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by TalkingPie »

Other major Canadian airlines' starting FA rates are very similar to what's presented here. Like pilot wages, lower starting "tiers" being introduced and inflation over the years are what's responsible for the lost purchasing power of the job's wages. What's worse, the per hour pay is usually presented at face value to prospective hires. Many naive new FAs assume that $28/hr is similar to what they'd earn at that pay rate if they worked in retail or other 40 hr/week job. Sometimes it's only after they've started working - which often involves moving or setting up a commuter place - that they discover they're earning poverty wages.

As to why to do this job? The barrier to entry is low - be over 18, able to pass Transport Canada's background checks, high school diploma, pass six weeks of company training, and ideally speak more than one language. (Unfortunately this also makes FAs extremely replaceable in management's eyes.) After a few years the pay and schedule become much more interesting. Per diems are also a factor which are supposed to take the sting out of the low wage, same as regional pilots.

A service director can make more money than a junior FO at the same airline. Compare an FA at a major airline and a pilot that both start at 18, and it'll probably be a decade or more before the pilot pulls financially ahead, especially if you factor in the pension, health, and travel benefits that the FA earns starting from Day 1, not to mention all the unpaid time and training costs the pilot takes on, while an FA earns money and has some spare time for study or a part time job. Of course, after a point an airline pilot will pull significantly ahead, but it takes a lot of time, cash investment, effort, and risk to get there.

For some demographics being a flight attendant is also still a source of prestige. It's not uncommon that people tell me it was their dream to be an FA. You also get the same kind of schedule and layovers that airline pilots get, which definitely can have its appeal.

I'm not debating against the starting wage being too low - I think it's underpaid for the work being done and have seen firsthand how bad living conditions for new FAs who aren't supported by their parents or spouses can be - but it's in line with the unfortunate Canadian aviation ethos that one has to "pay their dues." I suspect that management is hoping that young people will come in, work for a few years, and then quit before they start making decent money. This is how it plays out, with lots of turnover among junior FAs, although once past about 5 years, the vast majority become lifers. Then you get into the "frog in a pot" situation where working conditions gradually get whittled away with each new cabin configuration and collective agreement, but what are you really going to do about it once you've been in it for years and know that you'd have to start from zero somewhere else if you quit? I wouldn't call it "golden handcuffs," but aluminum or a nice hardwood, maybe.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by rookiepilot »

TalkingPie wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:50 pm

For some demographics being a flight attendant OR BEING A PILOT is also still a source of prestige.
And now the real truth finally comes out. Fixed your post.

As long as everyone ranks the cool factor and bars as super important to their image and bragging rights to the family, yeah these positions will be underpaid.

I never cared once for that crap. Impress my family?? I think not.

Open a small waste company or junk recycling, get rich. Many have. Get hands dirty.

Be cool, stay poor.

I’d carefully examine my motivations before choosing a career, or wind up miserable.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by cdnavater »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:16 pm
TalkingPie wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:50 pm

For some demographics being a flight attendant OR BEING A PILOT is also still a source of prestige.
And now the real truth finally comes out. Fixed your post.

As long as everyone ranks the cool factor and bars as super important to their image and bragging rights to the family, yeah these positions will be underpaid.

I never cared once for that crap. Impress my family?? I think not.

Open a small waste company or junk recycling, get rich. Many have. Get hands dirty.

Be cool, stay poor.

I’d carefully examine my motivations before choosing a career, or wind up miserable.
It seems perhaps you chose wrong, you’re as miserable as they come and you have a way of twisting(adding) peoples words to make yourself more miserable!
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by rookiepilot »

cdnavater wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:38 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:16 pm
TalkingPie wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:50 pm

For some demographics being a flight attendant OR BEING A PILOT is also still a source of prestige.
And now the real truth finally comes out. Fixed your post.

As long as everyone ranks the cool factor and bars as super important to their image and bragging rights to the family, yeah these positions will be underpaid.

I never cared once for that crap. Impress my family?? I think not.

Open a small waste company or junk recycling, get rich. Many have. Get hands dirty.

Be cool, stay poor.

I’d carefully examine my motivations before choosing a career, or wind up miserable.
It seems perhaps you chose wrong, you’re as miserable as they come and you have a way of twisting(adding) peoples words to make yourself more miserable!
I’m far from miserable, I’m just not your echo chamber.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by negroni »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:18 pm
Dronepiper wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:40 pm I just learned that westjet encore flight attendants start at $26.94/hr.

26.94 x 75 (Monthly Guarantee) x 12 months a year = $24,246/yr

Alberta’s min wage is $15/hr x 40 hour/week x 52 weeks = $31,200/year. This is almost $7000 higher than encore.

How is this legal??? Even after 4 years, it only goes up to $32/hr ($28.8k/year), which is still less than min wage.

Why do people even do this job?
This math is doing exactly what the Ont. union is trying to do with the media re the education workers.

Take their average annual pay, which is heavily skewed towards part time jobs, and act like its based on a 40 hour workweek, and claim poverty. And the public is buying it. Their benefits package the private sector can only look at and drool.

Gee. If I worked one day a week, made 10K for the year, the union would be blasting to the media “they are working this awful job for 15K a year”. Ridiculous.

The union lost any support from me there.

We can talk about wages and working conditions, I am totally supportive….but Don’t lie. Part time is part time.
You're an idiot. Mr I Dont Actually Work In Aviation.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by TalkingPie »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:16 pm
TalkingPie wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:50 pm

For some demographics being a flight attendant OR BEING A PILOT is also still a source of prestige.
And now the real truth finally comes out. Fixed your post.

As long as everyone ranks the cool factor and bars as super important to their image and bragging rights to the family, yeah these positions will be underpaid.

I never cared once for that crap. Impress my family?? I think not.

Open a small waste company or junk recycling, get rich. Many have. Get hands dirty.

Be cool, stay poor.

I’d carefully examine my motivations before choosing a career, or wind up miserable.
I have to join others in wondering why you spend so much time on an aviation forum just to basically tell people that they're stupid for being in aviation. I also wonder why you're trying to put words into my mouth.

I know nothing about you or whether you're happy or miserable in real life, but a lot of your posts on here sure come off as those written by a miserable SOB. Since you're so generous with giving strangers advice, here's some of mine for you: Maybe read the room and consider cutting back on your "valuable contributions" on topics of the airline industry in which you don't work and of which you seem to consider yourself so far above. Many here are not of the same opinion.

And also this: truly happy people don't spend much time on the Internet turning otherwise productive discussions into trying to convince strangers of how great they are.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by rookiepilot »

Its supposed to be an aviation site.

Not a miserable workers of the world unite site.

You guys bitching about wages non stop have hacked it. Enough.

I am well and truly sick of these posts and so are many others.

At minimum they should be moved to the airline section.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by AirFrame »

Dronepiper wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:40 pm 26.94 x 75 (Monthly Guarantee) x 12 months a year = $24,246/yr
Alberta’s min wage is $15/hr x 40 hour/week x 52 weeks = $31,200/year. This is almost $7000 higher than encore.

How is this legal???
Because it's comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing someone working full time, at 40 hours per week, to someone working part time, 75 hours per month. Even if you use the "duty average" hours of 135 that someone mentioned earlier it's still part time... Full time is nominally 173. But consider that's the base hours, lots of full time people work more hours than they're paid for, too, just like flight attendants. The norm is probably near 200/month.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by Bede »

Herein lies a problem in this industry: we whine and gripe about wages. Then some guy comes along and rubs people the wrong way and provides suggestions on how to increase wages and a bunch of people jump on him. It kind of reminds me of a COO I worked under once. Publicly he took it to us and would beat us. Privately, he'd tell us that it was like shooting fish in a barrel and we needed to unionize if we wanted a change to level things off a bit. People hated him regardless but he was right.

Anyways, can we get back to the topic of the thread.
FA's don't make less than minimum wage. Minimum wage is based per hour, not per year. Further, FA's are subject to a CA which makes the union (and not the government) in charge of enforcing labour laws. That's how it's allowed.
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by digits_ »

Bede wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:46 am
Anyways, can we get back to the topic of the thread.
FA's don't make less than minimum wage. Minimum wage is based per hour, not per year. Further, FA's are subject to a CA which makes the union (and not the government) in charge of enforcing labour laws. That's how it's allowed.
But if you have to work 2 hours to get paid for 1, then what is the point of minimum wage?

It's like mc d hiring you to work a 2 hour shift but you have to prep before and clean up afterwards for free, effectively working 4 hours but only getting paid for 2.

Are unions allowed to accept pay that's less than minimum wage?
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:08 am
Bede wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:46 am
Anyways, can we get back to the topic of the thread.
FA's don't make less than minimum wage. Minimum wage is based per hour, not per year. Further, FA's are subject to a CA which makes the union (and not the government) in charge of enforcing labour laws. That's how it's allowed.
But if you have to work 2 hours to get paid for 1, then what is the point of minimum wage?

It's like mc d hiring you to work a 2 hour shift but you have to prep before and clean up afterwards for free, effectively working 4 hours but only getting paid for 2.

Are unions allowed to accept pay that's less than minimum wage?

*** i guess the answer is yes. *** if the above scenario is your definition of minimum wage. We all experience minimum wage differently. Define minimum wage how you want to. You can identify as minimum wage if it feels good to you. Canadians have other concerns than monetary stuff. Minimum wage will figure itself out. See what i did :)
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Last edited by doiwannabeapilot on Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
rando
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Re: How are flight attendants allowed to make less than Min Wage?

Post by rando »

FA's/Pilots could negotiate contracts that pay by the duty hour. Many fear change though. All of a sudden deadheads don't look so bad anymore.

Each company will have all the data on duty vs credit hours and could work out an equivalent duty hour rate that would have the same cost. Then of course the company would build more "flight credit" productive pairings because all of a sudden deadheading and sitting around airports will cost the company to much money.
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