That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.
Imagine comparing a nurse working a night shift with an approach to mins at 150 kts in gusty winds, into a wet narrow short runway.
My wife is a nurse, I promise you this comparison is utterly retarded.
And yes nurses and doctors make mistakes all the time, it's one of the leading cause of death. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/me ... _in_the_us
In one article I read a passenger got a text from Flair something like "How was the flight?". They were going to respond it would be nice to get dropped off at the terminal next time They also said they would travel with Flair again in the future.
How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.
So how did the Emirates accident happen? What about AC in SFO? Southwest in Chicago? And all the other well paid pilots who've had overruns or other incidents? Another stupid comment, surprise surprise.
So you don’t think Canadian pilots should be paid properly? Bold of you to state so on a Canadian pilot forum!
When did I even say that? Are you actually dumb?
Your statement was ridiculous. You could pay someone a million dollars and they could still have an incident. Again, look at how well SWA pilots are paid and yet they still went off the runway in Chicago. How about Emirates? They still wrote off a 777. This isn't about defending or promoting pay. Good grief.
pilotidentity wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:37 pm
Glad no one was hurt.
In one article I read a passenger got a text from Flair something like "How was the flight?". They were going to respond it would be nice to get dropped off at the terminal next time They also said they would travel with Flair again in the future.
So how did the Emirates accident happen? What about AC in SFO? Southwest in Chicago? And all the other well paid pilots who've had overruns or other incidents? Another stupid comment, surprise surprise.
So you don’t think Canadian pilots should be paid properly? Bold of you to state so on a Canadian pilot forum!
When did I even say that? Are you actually dumb?
Your statement was ridiculous. You could pay someone a million dollars and they could still have an incident. Again, look at how well SWA pilots are paid and yet they still went off the runway in Chicago. How about Emirates? They still wrote off a 777. This isn't about defending or promoting pay. Good grief.
Well of course an accident can happen to any airlines no matter the experienced level or the pay. No-one is disputing this.
But you have to consider the flight volume and proportional risk. How would you compare Emirate's record with say Lion Air. Obviously one has a terrible safety record and working conditions. How many millions of pax does Emirates fly per year vs Flair ?
What's notable here is that specific pairing route was already brought up here recently as a fatigue risk and this unfortunate incident doesn't come as a surprise. Just like the Colgan Air Buffalo crash was very predictable in it's own way.
Let's just hope that some positive change will come out of this. Regardless of the cause of this overrun (could be mechanical issue, braking/spoilers issue, etc) but it's impossible to deny that fatigue is not a factor here.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Negative_Unable wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:43 amMy dude. As a fellow ATC, I’m gonna suggest you delete this. This is WAY too much info to be sharing online with your name attached. We have policies about this. You’re flirting with a dangerous line here.
Everything in that post in publicly available information. The CADORs are, the tower hours are, flair arrival/departure schedules are, weather is(and has been posted already), airport terrain you can see from the side of the road. The only thing that might not be is my speculation about airport worker hours but that's not even info I have access to at work just word of mouth speculation. I was careful when I made the post not to share anything that any random person wouldn't be able to find online themselves.
Are you suggesting I'm not allowed to post information that if I wasn't employed by NAV I would still have access to and would be free to post anyway?
Look. I’m just giving my advice as somebody who has been in this company for a while. When you identify yourself as an employee, give your workplace and name, and then proceed to give thoughts/opinions on what is an open investigation, you risk being perceived as representing the company and its opinions. Give those thoughts/opinions all you want. I’m just saying it’s not the wisest choice to do so whilst identifying yourself so blatantly.
You do you, man. I’m not here to tell you how to live. I’m a peer who doesn’t want this to come back and bite you.
The snippy attitude isn’t necessary.
Hopefully we won't have to wait 2 years to find out where was the touchdown point and what was the original Flap/AB landing configuration.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Negative_Unable wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:36 pmLook. I’m just giving my advice as somebody who has been in this company for a while. When you identify yourself as an employee, give your workplace and name, and then proceed to give thoughts/opinions on what is an open investigation, you risk being perceived as representing the company and its opinions. Give those thoughts/opinions all you want. I’m just saying it’s not the wisest choice to do so whilst identifying yourself so blatantly.
You do you, man. I’m not here to tell you how to live. I’m a peer who doesn’t want this to come back and bite you.
The snippy attitude isn’t necessary.
I've edited the post to nothing(couldn't find a delete button), but it's still there in your quoted post unless you remove it as well.
I wasn't trying to be snippy, I was asking a legitimate question. You said I shouldn't post info, yet all the info is publicly available so I legitimately wanted to know why an employee posting publicly available info would be viewed as off limits since it's something anyone could find and post. I do concede that parts of the post could be viewed as an opinion/speculation of mine and thus the company which is why I deleted it. Thank you for making me aware of that.
I'm wondering the same thing. I appreciated the summary of the publically available info.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
There are thousands of jobs that practically require longer shifts. No doubt you could suggest "Fatigue" as a factor for every airplane crash. But airline flying, really?? Sit back in a lazy-boy seat (sheepskin covers, mmmm) all day, hand fly a couple minutes every few hours, maybe a sore pinky from punching the flight into the FMS. Dispatch does your planning. Attendant brings you a coffee. Even those fire-chasing helicopter pilots work the same hours, hands on controls all day long-lining, and rolling their own drums for fuel - and I never hear them complain about fatigue.
Pretty slack compared to the rest of the world of long shifts, and yeah I wouldn't compare it to the medical profession.
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Last edited by karmutzen on Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
karmutzen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:34 pm
There are thousands of jobs that practically require longer shifts No doubt you could suggest "Fatigue" as a factor for every airplane crash. But airline flying, really?? Sit back in a lazy-boy seat (sheepskin covers, mmmm) all day, hand fly a couple minutes every few hours, maybe a sore pinky from punching the flight into the FMS. Dispatch does your planning. Attendant brings you a coffee. Even those fire-chasing helicopter pilots work the same hours, hands on controls all day long-lining, and rolling their own drums for fuel - and I never hear them complain about fatigue.
Pretty slack compared to the rest of the world of long shifts, and yeah I wouldn't compare it to the medical profession.
The boredom *is* a major part of the fatigue.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
karmutzen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:34 pm
There are thousands of jobs that practically require longer shifts. No doubt you could suggest "Fatigue" as a factor for every airplane crash. But airline flying, really?? Sit back in a lazy-boy seat (sheepskin covers, mmmm) all day, hand fly a couple minutes every few hours, maybe a sore pinky from punching the flight into the FMS. Dispatch does your planning. Attendant brings you a coffee. Even those fire-chasing helicopter pilots work the same hours, hands on controls all day long-lining, and rolling their own drums for fuel - and I never hear them complain about fatigue.
Pretty slack compared to the rest of the world of long shifts, and yeah I wouldn't compare it to the medical profession.
Not during the middle of the night though. It does make a big difference.
karmutzen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:34 pm
There are thousands of jobs that practically require longer shifts. No doubt you could suggest "Fatigue" as a factor for every airplane crash. But airline flying, really?? Sit back in a lazy-boy seat (sheepskin covers, mmmm) all day, hand fly a couple minutes every few hours, maybe a sore pinky from punching the flight into the FMS. Dispatch does your planning. Attendant brings you a coffee. Even those fire-chasing helicopter pilots work the same hours, hands on controls all day long-lining, and rolling their own drums for fuel - and I never hear them complain about fatigue.
Pretty slack compared to the rest of the world of long shifts, and yeah I wouldn't compare it to the medical profession.
Just going to put this here so everyone can see what an idiot your are!
You know a lot of fire chasing helicopter pilots to base that on, I guarantee those guys a fatigued and if they screw up, it’s a factor, are you even a pilot, sheesh!
Also, what are these “thousands of job” that require longer shift overnight, do you mean the thousands of truck drivers who mostly drive during the day.
Even a miners night shift is only eight hours, where are all these people pulling 12-13 hour night shifts and if they are they’re fucking tired, I reiterate, idiot!
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:07 pm
As a GA pilot you fly once in a while, maybe for a few hours at a time. Unless you have worked as a professional pilot, you have no idea of the stress and exhaustion. These things include:
- abusive chief pilots
- 14 hour duty days, recently reduced.
- low pay, and forced to pick up extra flying to make ends meet, resulting in fatigue.
- many nights away from home.
Overall, I enjoy the job but there are many stressors that come with it. So again, unless you actually have worked as a professional pilot, it’s pretty difficult for you to truly understand.
I flew 2, 3 hour legs from Victoria to Regina as a GA pilot to go to a course, i was fatigued. I just finished a long stressful work week at my regular job on the night shift doing 13 hours shifts, i left at 6am on the weekend (complete opposite sleep schedule as I'm used to) and didn't get any sleep the night before as I was stressing about the weather and no other mode of transportation would have got me there in time other than flying my plane. Funny how "get there itis" is only ever thrown at GA. ANY pilot can be stressed or fatigued for any number of personnel or professional reasons outside of the cockpit and that can be on their mind when they fly. Yes i have flown commercially for several years, so i know what its like
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:07 pm
As a GA pilot you fly once in a while, maybe for a few hours at a time. Unless you have worked as a professional pilot, you have no idea of the stress and exhaustion. These things include:
- abusive chief pilots
- 14 hour duty days, recently reduced.
- low pay, and forced to pick up extra flying to make ends meet, resulting in fatigue.
- many nights away from home.
Overall, I enjoy the job but there are many stressors that come with it. So again, unless you actually have worked as a professional pilot, it’s pretty difficult for you to truly understand.
I flew 2, 3 hour legs from Victoria to Regina as a GA pilot to go to a course, i was fatigued. I just finished a long stressful work week at my regular job on the night shift doing 13 hours shifts, i left at 6am on the weekend (complete opposite sleep schedule as I'm used to) and didn't get any sleep the night before as I was stressing about the weather and no other mode of transportation would have got me there in time other than flying my plane. Funny how "get there itis" is only ever thrown at GA. ANY pilot can be stressed or fatigued for any number of personnel or professional reasons outside of the cockpit and that can be on their mind when they fly. Yes i have flown commercially for several years, so i know what its like
.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:07 pm
As a GA pilot you fly once in a while, maybe for a few hours at a time. Unless you have worked as a professional pilot, you have no idea of the stress and exhaustion. These things include:
- abusive chief pilots
- 14 hour duty days, recently reduced.
- low pay, and forced to pick up extra flying to make ends meet, resulting in fatigue.
- many nights away from home.
Overall, I enjoy the job but there are many stressors that come with it. So again, unless you actually have worked as a professional pilot, it’s pretty difficult for you to truly understand.
I flew 2, 3 hour legs from Victoria to Regina as a GA pilot to go to a course, i was fatigued. I just finished a long stressful work week at my regular job on the night shift doing 13 hours shifts, i left at 6am on the weekend (complete opposite sleep schedule as I'm used to) and didn't get any sleep the night before as I was stressing about the weather and no other mode of transportation would have got me there in time other than flying my plane. Funny how "get there itis" is only ever thrown at GA. ANY pilot can be stressed or fatigued for any number of personnel or professional reasons outside of the cockpit and that can be on their mind when they fly. Yes i have flown commercially for several years, so i know what its like
When i was doing Hope Air, did lots of ZBA - YYU - YXU or YTZ - ZBA. Granted not every day, but in a 182, do the math, more than a few hours.
Granted, night is harder. I’ve done some 3 hour legs on a dark overcast night a few times. No AP. Yeah, that tired me.
As for the other poster, idiot back at you. Thousands of truckers run through the night, my brother is one of them, pulling double trailers on the nutty 401. 10-12 straight hours.
Sound easier?
The difference is that the trucker can pull on the side of the road.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
They also said they would travel with Flair again in the future. 
