Flair off runway excursion YKF

[rookiepilot]

As a GA pilot you fly once in a while, maybe for a few hours at a time. Unless you have worked as a professional pilot, you have no idea of the stress and exhaustion. These things include:
- abusive chief pilots
- 14 hour duty days, recently reduced.
- low pay, and forced to pick up extra flying to make ends meet, resulting in fatigue.
- many nights away from home.

Overall, I enjoy the job but there are many stressors that come with it. So again, unless you actually have worked as a professional pilot, it’s pretty difficult for you to truly understand.

Fair.

Just looking for rational consistency in analysis of these events.

[daedalusx]

Company culture comes from the top. A chief pilot that lived in a van in the parking lot, paid for training at Jetsgo, and scabbed at Swoop to try to get ahead of everyone else, is going to be the kind of person that cuts corners and expect others to do the same.

You're a friggin idiot you know that?

Is it not true?
#vanlife
#JetsGONE
#scab

That guy would have definitely made the scab list in the USA ...

[UnionDrive]

They just started recruiting in Africa for permanent immigrant workers because they can't find enough qualified pilots in Canada that will work for them at the current wages.

How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.

So how did the Emirates accident happen? What about AC in SFO? Southwest in Chicago? And all the other well paid pilots who've had overruns or other incidents? Another stupid comment, surprise surprise.

So you don’t think Canadian pilots should be paid properly? Bold of you to state so on a Canadian pilot forum!

[Jester123]

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[ogopogo]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

[averageatbest]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

If they have a 1-hour report to departure, they are scheduled for an 11 hour day. The maximum duty period for a flight departing at 1800L is 12 hours.

[pelmet]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

It appears that some are trying to put the point across that Flair's payscale and work schedule somehow equate to this incident. No mention of that horrible 4 year flat pay that is mentioned so often for AC newhires and no mention of your experience of the same crew at AC doing what may have happened here(out and back on an overnight to the west coast.

Could the analysis be faulty.

If the chief pilot happens to like living in a van to save money, is it affecting scheduling and decision-making. Does it matter that he worked at JetsGo and put money up for an endorsement(which I was once told was supposed to be returned with interest). I hear AC's schedules are not the greatest for much of the pilot group and I know a guy that was voluntarily flying his ass off at Rouge to max out hours(which may have happened on this flight). I hear that AC guys go two crew over to Europe overnight as well.

The majority of posts seem to have an ulterior motive rather than discussing the accident.

There have been few useful posts on this thread with rants about how GA pilots are treated to temporary foreign workers. The most respectable post has come from an air traffic controller who said.....

"I work at YKF tower and Flair regularly departs in the evening to Vancouver and returns the following morning before we open. Whether they schedule a crew change in YVR I don't know but I doubt it with YKF being their base. I can't say I've seen a Flair to/from YVR anytime recently without this schedule. Fatigue certainly could have been a factor for this reason. It was raining this morning and quite gusty but they routinely stop in 5000 feet so something must have been seriously misjudged to go off the end of 7000 feet if the aircraft was in working order. Luckily that end of the runway is flat and the gear appears to have held. They're in the process of trying to remove it now.

From the tower side of things I'm curious if this could lead down the path to extended tower hours, perhaps all the way to 24 hours. They often have multiple arrivals around or just after midnight while we close at 11 PM, this arrival scheduled around 5 AM, and departures just after 6 while we open at 7. The airport staff used to have the same hours as us, but then extended them because they obviously need staff on site for a scheduled airline and I think they're 24 hours now. There's very little else happening at night so it's not necessary for ATC to be there but it's a nice asset to have to help coordinate response when something like this happens.

This is the 3rd incident of note for Flair 500/501 to/from YVR in the past year with the bomb threat last December(CADOR 2021O2142) and RV takeoff/Flair landing conflict in July while the tower was closed(CADOR 2022O1542). The first obviously wouldn't be fatigue related at all outside of a passenger obviously not thinking clearly, but the 2nd likely involved miscommunication on the MF between 501 and the RV, where fatigue possible could have played a part and the tower being closed absolutely played a part."

[averageatbest]

It appears that some are trying to put the point across that Flair's payscale and work schedule somehow equate to this incident. No mention of that horrible 4 year flat pay that is mentioned so often for AC newhires and no mention of your experience of the same crew at AC doing what may have happened here(out and back on an overnight to the west coast.

Could the analysis be faulty.

If the chief pilot happens to like living in a van to save money, is it affecting scheduling and decision-making. Does it matter that he worked at JetsGo and put money up for an endorsement(which I was once told was supposed to be returned with interest). I hear AC's schedules are not the greatest for much of the pilot group and I know a guy that was voluntarily flying his ass off at Rouge to max out hours(which may have happened on this flight). I hear that AC guys go two crew over to Europe overnight as well.

There have been few useful posts on this thread with rants about how GA pilots are treated to temporary foreign workers. The most respectable post has come from an air traffic controller.

The majority of posts seem to have an ulterior motive rather than discussing the accident.

If Flair's payscale caused this accident, then did Air Canada's flat pay cause their Halifax crash and did WestJet's low pay cause their Halifax crash?

[YC87DRVR]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

It appears that some are trying to put the point across that Flair's payscale and work schedule somehow equate to this incident. No mention of that horrible 4 year flat pay that is mentioned so often for AC newhires and no mention of your experience of the same crew at AC doing what may have happened here(out and back on an overnight to the west coast.

Could the analysis be faulty.

If the chief pilot happens to like living in a van to save money, is it affecting scheduling and decision-making. Does it matter that he worked at JetsGo and put money up for an endorsement(which I was once told was supposed to be returned with interest). I hear AC's schedules are not the greatest for much of the pilot group and I know a guy that was voluntarily flying his ass off at Rouge to max out hours(which may have happened on this flight). I hear that AC guys go two crew over to Europe overnight as well.

There have been few useful posts on this thread with rants about how GA pilots are treated to temporary foreign workers. The most respectable post has come from an air traffic controller.

The majority of posts seem to have an ulterior motive rather than discussing the accident.

The poster who spent the majority of his post bashing a completely different and unrelated company then finishes his post calling out almost all the other posts for having ulterior motives and discussing other things than the accident…..

Hypocrite.

[pelmet]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

It appears that some are trying to put the point across that Flair's payscale and work schedule somehow equate to this incident. No mention of that horrible 4 year flat pay that is mentioned so often for AC newhires and no mention of your experience of the same crew at AC doing what may have happened here(out and back on an overnight to the west coast.

Could the analysis be faulty.

If the chief pilot happens to like living in a van to save money, is it affecting scheduling and decision-making. Does it matter that he worked at JetsGo and put money up for an endorsement(which I was once told was supposed to be returned with interest). I hear AC's schedules are not the greatest for much of the pilot group and I know a guy that was voluntarily flying his ass off at Rouge to max out hours(which may have happened on this flight). I hear that AC guys go two crew over to Europe overnight as well.

There have been few useful posts on this thread with rants about how GA pilots are treated to temporary foreign workers. The most respectable post has come from an air traffic controller.

The majority of posts seem to have an ulterior motive rather than discussing the accident.

The poster who spent the majority of his post bashing a completely different and unrelated company then finishes his post calling out almost all the other posts for having ulterior motives and discussing other things than the accident…..

Hypocrite.

How do professional pilots have such poor interpretation of posts. Somehow I am bashing AC in the majority of my post. I am pointing out that what is said be the situation at Flair is likely not much different than significant parts of AC, which seems to be held by may to be the best choice for a career.

How about you and almost every one else(including me) don't have any idea about what happened and only foolish theories have been put forward. It might help if we actually got a weather report for the time of landing as something useful. That could be the start of some intelligent posting(aside from mine of course;)

Weather report anyone?

[anofly1]

wind 280 - 300 ish at 15-25, 3 sm , ovc at 600 , light rain, temp 5 degrees C, dewpoint 4, at the time of the landing that I think was 11:30 ish UTC (630 am local)

[Chaxterium]

Weather report anyone?

I believe they landed around 6am yesterday morning.

All times local.

07:00 METAR CYKF 251200Z AUTO 30017G23KT 9SM OVC008 04/03 A2985 RMK SLP118
06:52 METAR CYKF 251152Z AUTO 30016G24KT 6SM BR OVC008 04/03 A2985 RMK PRESRR SLP118
06:48 SPECI CYKF 251148Z AUTO 30016G26KT 3SM BR OVC008 04/03 A2985 RMK SLP117
06:41 METAR CYKF 251141Z AUTO 30017G26KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC008 05/03 A2984 RMK SLP114
06:38 METAR CYKF 251138Z AUTO 30018G25KT 3SM BR OVC008 05/04 A2984 RMK SLP114
06:24 METAR CYKF 251124Z AUTO 30016G25KT 3SM -RA BR OVC006 05/04 A2983 RMK SLP111
06:02 METAR CYKF 251102Z AUTO 29016G23KT 2SM -RA BR OVC006 05/04 A2982 RMK SLP109
06:00 METAR CYKF 251100Z AUTO 28017G23KT 2SM BR OVC006 05/04 A2982 RMK SLP109
05:52 METAR CYKF 251052Z AUTO 28017G24KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC006 05/04 A2982 RMK SLP108
05:00 METAR CYKF 251000Z AUTO 27017G25KT 4SM BR OVC006 06/05 A2981 RMK SLP103

[pelmet]

Thanks guys. According to an earlier post, runway 26 was used, definitely a gusting crosswind but well within limits even with variation added.

What kind of approach is used for runway 26?

[anofly1]

variation as in compass? I thought ground winds are magnetic, upper winds true? maybe i need to review...

The general rule is:

If you read it, it's true. If you hear it, it's magnetic.

All charts and textual sources (METAR, TAF, winds aloft, surface analysis charts, etc) use true north as the reference.

ATIS/AWOS/ASOS broadcasts, or any information a controller gives you over the radio, is magnetic.

Wind direction broadcast over FAA radios is in reference to magnetic north.

Well there you go!! i was sort of maybe half correct.... at best...

[rookiepilot]

Thanks guys. According to an earlier post, runway 26 was used, definitely a gusting crosswind but well within limits even with variation added.

What kind of approach is used for runway 25?

.

[goldeneagle]

Based on the check in time that someone else posted here (around 6pm or so) then they were good for 12 hours so yes, a YVR-YKF-YVR turn is possible. Tight. But possible.

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

[737Maximilian]

Based on the check in time that someone else posted here (around 6pm or so) then they were good for 12 hours so yes, a YVR-YKF-YVR turn is possible. Tight. But possible.

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Yeah, and doctors/nurses so rarely make mistakes

[Negative_Unable]

Post deleted

[Jack Klumpus]

Maybe they flaired too high.

[daedalusx]

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Imagine comparing a nurse working a night shift with an approach to mins at 150 kts in gusty winds, into a wet narrow short runway.
My wife is a nurse, I promise you this comparison is utterly retarded.
And yes nurses and doctors make mistakes all the time, it's one of the leading cause of death.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/me ... _in_the_us