New Flair Tentative Agreement

[Bacunayagua]

As much as I don't agree with the low pilot payscale you have to consider that,
Flair is a start up, they don't have too much money.
Can't compare Canada, population 38m to the USA, population 340m. Way different market.

Compare Canada to Australia then. Roughly the same landmass. 10M smaller population base. I think you'll find their salaries well above Canadian wages.

Jeezuz you guys are exhausting. Have any of you actually seen the TA you so disparage so much? I don't think you have. In fact I KNOW you haven't. If you do indeed work for Flair why are you still there if it's so shitty? Settle down and wait for the details or you'll risk looking even more divisive than you are already. Forming an opinion without all the facts is simply idiotic.

I personally have seen it, and it sucks ass. But I do not work for Flair.

No one has seen it. What you have seen is 15 powerpoint slides that attempt to summarize a 50 page document.

With the increase of MMG to 85 hrs, how many positions are eliminated?

And how many captain spots are subsequently reduced?

What effect does that have on progression?

A little rough math: Everyone can do 10% more flying. Therefore, 10% less pilots required.

If the original plan was for 700 pilots, then that's 70 less pilots and probably 40 less Captains required.

I'm very well aware this is a summation of the whole contract. But we both know any sort of improvement that happened would be part of this presentation. I've gone through an ALPA presentation after a new contract before, and said presentation essentially has all the new positive aspects of the TA. Anything not mentioned is either because it is status quo, or a concession they're hoping you don't notice.

If there are so many other positive aspects to the new contract as GRK2 claims, and maybe yourself? Then we both know they would have also been included in this presentation.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong. Please show us what other notable improvements were left out of this presentation.

[Bacunayagua]

twa22, ask bacunayagua (sorry if it's not spelled correctly) He says he has a copy and will post it here. I'm done here, it's all too over the top.

Respectfully I do understand what it is you want. It's the same where I work, pulling this industry up isn't easy and will it take time. Hope you find what you want.

So GRK, you've had a few pilots here who've been around the game much, much longer then I have, and they concur that based on information available, this is a relatively weak contract by the sounds of it.... So I ask you again, can you provide any of us with details as to what makes this a good contract in 2023? I say 2023 because this year is almost over.

Things don't happen overnight but this has been over a year in the making, so how much time does it take for a decent contract to show up?

He won't show you anything because there isn't anything to show. We all know everything worth talking about is in that presentation.

[Apestogetherstrong]

GRK2 you have made the most useless argument one can think of. You say that there is something in the full TA which is better and that the powerpoint presentation isnt the full thing. You must know that pilots are not monkeys. We are professionals and its high time we should be paid right. Bump the salary up to $89k and see the long term benefits and become the true industry leader in Canada. You guys have the money. If you dont you will lose more FO’s and overall lose more money. Now is the time to fix it and be number one in Canada. Also the good thing is pilots across Canada are starting to unite and this will bring huge gains for pilots so its up to you guys. Either be with the pilots or become the next “Sunwing”(referencing the current situation)

[pacman007]

Honestly what would happen if you vote it down? You need to see the companies second offer then take a hard look at the details.

You know lynx will beat you by 1% and you will still be way behind AC and WestJet. You will still be the lowest paid and hardest worked in Canada .

[co-joe]

Honestly what would happen if you vote it down? You need to see the companies second offer then take a hard look at the details.

You know lynx will beat you by 1% and you will still be way behind AC and WestJet. You will still be the lowest paid and hardest worked in Canada .

I don't have a problem with either of those two things at present. Did you think a new ULCC model was going to produce the highest paid pilots in Canada overnight? This is a step in the right direction but there's still more work to do.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Honestly what would happen if you vote it down? You need to see the companies second offer then take a hard look at the details.

You know lynx will beat you by 1% and you will still be way behind AC and WestJet. You will still be the lowest paid and hardest worked in Canada .

I don't have a problem with either of those two things at present. Did you think a new ULCC model was going to produce the highest paid pilots in Canada overnight? This is a step in the right direction but there's still more work to do.

At least you acknowledge that theres still more work to be done. To start with lets make the FO salary to $89k. Just 16000 more. You do that and it fixes the problem. Now that will be a win win situation

[thepoors]

Honestly what would happen if you vote it down? You need to see the companies second offer then take a hard look at the details.

You know lynx will beat you by 1% and you will still be way behind AC and WestJet. You will still be the lowest paid and hardest worked in Canada .

I don't have a problem with either of those two things at present. Did you think a new ULCC model was going to produce the highest paid pilots in Canada overnight? This is a step in the right direction but there's still more work to do.

Sorry??!!... You don't have a problem being the lowest paid and hardest worked? Then why don't you volunteer and donate your salary back to the company? What's the point?

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose buddy. Just stop, it's embarrassing. We've had enough of these degrading attitudes to the profession for far too long.

[throwawaycorporate]

Every negotiated contract directly affects every pilot in the industry. I feel this contract misses the mark and will create overworked pilots and hostility between CA and FO at the least. To say "it doesn't matter because you'll be captain in 12 months" is not valid as growth will eventually stop. I think it would be wise to vote NO and push for more from the company:

• FO wages increase same % as CA

• All wages indexed to the CPI (the 2.5% listed in the pay scales is essentially a ~4% pay cut per year meaning at the end of the 3 years each pilot will be making ~12% less in real terms if inflation remains inflated)

• Me too clause similar to Delta's that ensures F50 pilots get 1% more than any contract ratified by Swoop/Lynx/Canada Jetlines/other competitors?

• Remain at 80MMG with a lower cap on scheduling block. (Delta negotiated 34% + improvements in work/life balance). Not everyone wants to work 10% more each month.

In Ontario, education workers walked off the job for 2 days despite a "back to work" mandate and the threat of hefty fines. The precedent has been set again that "back to work" mandates are against labour's charter rights. Many US and international pilot groups recently have shown intent to strike. And it's been effective.

Some raises in the US as a %: Delta 34%, Republic 54-94%, Alaska 23%, >100% at Mesa

American Airlines pilots (already industry leading pay) turned down 19%, Air Canada pilots voted overwhelmingly NO to the LOA. King Air pilots with a fresh ATPL are making 140K + to work 14/14 schedules. It is clear where compensation is trending in this industry. If Spirit can pay their FO's $148USD and their Captains $277USD, then all of our low cost carriers can afford to pay $148CAD and $277CAD and still get a 30% discount on global market rate. Canadian pilots have the ability to capture these transformative gains as well, we just need to stop making excuses as to why it won't happen here, and focus on making it happen here.

I can't think of a single pilot who won't benefit from a NO.

[co-joe]

Sorry??!!... You don't have a problem being the lowest paid and hardest worked? Then why don't you volunteer and donate your salary back to the company? What's the point?

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose buddy. Just stop, it's embarrassing. We've had enough of these degrading attitudes to the profession for far too long.

No, it's not all about money, and your perception of how hard I work means nothing to me. I'm not here to prove myself to you.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Sorry??!!... You don't have a problem being the lowest paid and hardest worked? Then why don't you volunteer and donate your salary back to the company? What's the point?

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose buddy. Just stop, it's embarrassing. We've had enough of these degrading attitudes to the profession for far too long.

No, it's not all about money, and your perception of how hard I work means nothing to me. I'm not here to prove myself to you.

If you are part of the management then you really dont need to prove yourself. However if you are a pilot YOU are the reason we have shitty conditions in Canada for pilots. YOU are the reason for low wages. YOU are the reason pilots bring each other down! We need to change our thinking. We need to start respecting OURSELVES!!!

[Anonymouse]

Sorry??!!... You don't have a problem being the lowest paid and hardest worked? Then why don't you volunteer and donate your salary back to the company? What's the point?

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose buddy. Just stop, it's embarrassing. We've had enough of these degrading attitudes to the profession for far too long.

No, it's not all about money, and your perception of how hard I work means nothing to me. I'm not here to prove myself to you.

If you are part of the management then you really dont need to prove yourself. However if you are a pilot YOU are the reason we have shitty conditions in Canada for pilots. YOU are the reason for low wages. YOU are the reason pilots bring each other down! We need to change our thinking. We need to start respecting OURSELVES!!!

It's so important that evert new pilot understands this. Every pilot who agrees to work for less than their worth devalues the entire pilot group. This isn't about flair, its not about one single contract, it's about raising wages at every airline in Canada. The only reason flair is in the spotlight here is that their TA came first so it's the one that's going to influence Westjet and AC's. Accepting unacceptable wages will affect every pilot in Canada.

[daedalusx]

That's actually a bit disappointing T&E considering the current climate. I agree with throwawaycorporate, when the music stops, you'll be sitting on the right seat on that wage maybe for a long time. Flair expansion plan is quite ambitious and we're still on a verge of a pretty big downturn, so the whole 1 year to upgrade thing might not still be always there down the road.

The fact that Flair would also rather hire foreigners than raise the wages here is also worrisome. You're not going to attract that much people with these conditions except a few DECs from SWG, Swoop, etc

Capts voting Yes on this also doesn't show much solidarity and will created a divided pilot group down the road ... as we've seen with the Jazz A/B scale thing.

Quite surprised that this is the best that the ALPA negos committee managed to get, to be honest. Was expecting way more, especially on the FO side.

Well, best of luck guys.

[vrefplus5]

Yeah…… the TA will pass. Ironic that posters here were, up to recent history, berating and belittling the pilots for working there and the ugly blight the green disrupters presented to the industry. Now, they’re pleading with the Flair group to be the shining beacon of hope and the champion for change. They want a new airline to do that! On their first agreement!! Laughable. Yeah….the TA will pass, and in a couple really short years when negots reopen there & the bigger guys have negotiated hopefully better WAWCONs, the Flair group will ride on gains available then. Subject of course to economy/world events. At that time, both CA/FO groups will be way better off. Very strategic move. I suspect the “NO” vote champions, work for a competitor, because it’s impossible there is in-house ignorance of the blatant risks associated with voting a decent first TA down. Would demonstrate a weak tactical move. Potential arbitration, possible clawbacks of the gains, etc. That’s a no-confidence fact for anyone familiar with failed contract negots. Let the established carriers be the champion for change when their talks open. I hope all the carriers realize decent gains, but the little guy shouldn’t be saddled with that expectation right from the gate. And btw, from what I’ve seen posted here in the charts, with the possible exception of the FO side, a 10yr CA salary of $208K (guaranteed!!) appears to be a positive change in the right direction. Anyways, yeah…..the TA will pass!

[fish4life]

One big problem isn’t even the pay it’s going to be the high blocking windows/ or trigger / mmg. I’d be shocked if WJ/ AC pilots making 80 hours fly more than 60 in the average month. This adds up and will be exhausting when you need to actually fly 85-90 hours a month every month at Flair.

[Transition9er2]

Vote No

[pacman007]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-09/

I’ll just leave this here to digest.

[throwawaycorporate]

Yeah…… the TA will pass. Ironic that posters here were, up to recent history, berating and belittling the pilots for working there and the ugly blight the green disrupters presented to the industry. Now, they’re pleading with the Flair group to be the shining beacon of hope and the champion for change. They want a new airline to do that! On their first agreement!! Laughable. Yeah….the TA will pass, and in a couple really short years when negots reopen there & the bigger guys have negotiated hopefully better WAWCONs, the Flair group will ride on gains available then. Subject of course to economy/world events. At that time, both CA/FO groups will be way better off. Very strategic move. I suspect the “NO” vote champions, work for a competitor, because it’s impossible there is in-house ignorance of the blatant risks associated with voting a decent first TA down. Would demonstrate a weak tactical move. Potential arbitration, possible clawbacks of the gains, etc. That’s a no-confidence fact for anyone familiar with failed contract negots. Let the established carriers be the champion for change when their talks open. I hope all the carriers realize decent gains, but the little guy shouldn’t be saddled with that expectation right from the gate. And btw, from what I’ve seen posted here in the charts, with the possible exception of the FO side, a 10yr CA salary of $208K (guaranteed!!) appears to be a positive change in the right direction. Anyways, yeah…..the TA will pass!

The TA may very well pass.

That being said, I highly doubt an arbitrator will look at what is happening globally, or even compare the F50 to current competitors and take away all the offered gains. Even with the gains on the captain side, it’s below AC/WS 737 rates.

I think if voted no, the company would come back with a revised offer where the only change is FO pay also up 23%, but starting year 2. That’s a more fair contract, and it would put flair in a much stronger position to capture gains in 2 years. If not, I could see an arbitrator forcing stronger language towards inflation. Protection.

Regardless of what happens, the fear of voting no, or arbitration resembles behaviour of someone in an abusive relationship scared of being punished by their abuser.

[strengthinumbers]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-09/

I’ll just leave this here to digest.

The deal includes “zero concessions” by the pilot group.

Folks South of the border are accelerating and improving their industry time and time again, airline by airline.

Can we do the same here in Canada or will we continue to just be thankful for the crumbs we’re given like battered wife syndrome?!

[CaptainHaddock]

Yeah…… the TA will pass. Ironic that posters here were, up to recent history, berating and belittling the pilots for working there and the ugly blight the green disrupters presented to the industry. Now, they’re pleading with the Flair group to be the shining beacon of hope and the champion for change. They want a new airline to do that! On their first agreement!! Laughable. Yeah….the TA will pass, and in a couple really short years when negots reopen there & the bigger guys have negotiated hopefully better WAWCONs, the Flair group will ride on gains available then. Subject of course to economy/world events. At that time, both CA/FO groups will be way better off. Very strategic move. I suspect the “NO” vote champions, work for a competitor, because it’s impossible there is in-house ignorance of the blatant risks associated with voting a decent first TA down. Would demonstrate a weak tactical move. Potential arbitration, possible clawbacks of the gains, etc. That’s a no-confidence fact for anyone familiar with failed contract negots. Let the established carriers be the champion for change when their talks open. I hope all the carriers realize decent gains, but the little guy shouldn’t be saddled with that expectation right from the gate. And btw, from what I’ve seen posted here in the charts, with the possible exception of the FO side, a 10yr CA salary of $208K (guaranteed!!) appears to be a positive change in the right direction. Anyways, yeah…..the TA will pass!

Don’t vote yes out of fear, if you personally are fine with it then vote yes, but don’t just because you are afraid of arbitration . What others are posting here is true though, we as Canadian airline pilots, are in the best negotiating position in decades. Aircraft require competent pilots to fly them, there are many more aircraft arriving in the Canadian market then ever before. Thinking you will have a better opportunity in 3 years to improve is short sighted, you have the opportunity right now-you should take it.

[rudder]

Don’t vote yes out of fear, if you personally are fine with it then vote yes, but don’t just because you are afraid of arbitration . What others are posting here is true though, we as Canadian airline pilots, are in the best negotiating position in decades. Aircraft require competent pilots to fly them, there are many more aircraft arriving in the Canadian market then ever before. Thinking you will have a better opportunity in 3 years to improve is short sighted, you have the opportunity right now-you should take it.

Why would there be a risk of arbitration? There is no such reference in the Canada Labour Code. And Flair is the furthest thing from an ‘essential service’ so zero chance of legislative intervention by the Federal Government.

It would only be possible if both the parties mutually consent to arbitration, or it is already articulated in the current FLAIR CBA.