TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

[tbaylx]

Rumored to be SW LOU. This puts Flair to shame. It beats Flair FO yr 2. Another reason to VOTE NO! Besides pilots took a risk coming to Flair. With high risk there should be higher reward. Pretty sure WJ new contract is going to beat Flair too.

This new proposed SWG payscale doesn't make sense to me. 75 MMG (as per the table) X 12 months = 900 annual hours.

A year 1 Captain making $162.41 per hour X 900 hours = $146,169 (not $151,854 as indicated in the table).

And, the F/O rates look like they approximate 1000 annual hours (Year 1 F/O $66.54/hour = $66,543 annual salary).

Am I missing something?

It’s based on a variable monthly MMG equal to 935/year or 77.91 something per month on a average.

SWGs proposed Hourly Captain rates are higher than Flair but salary based on mmg is higher under Flairs proposed TA.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

It’s based on a variable monthly MMG equal to 935/year or 77.91 something per month on a average.

That may be true, but the chart still doesn't make sense.

Captains at $162.41 X 935 hours = $151,853. This looks right on the chart.

F/O's at $66.54 X 935 hours = $62,214. This is incorrect on the chart.

Either way you slice it, unless Captains and F/O's are getting different MMG's, something is wrong with the math somewhere.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Rumored to be SW LOU. This puts Flair to shame. It beats Flair FO yr 2. Another reason to VOTE NO! Besides pilots took a risk coming to Flair. With high risk there should be higher reward. Pretty sure WJ new contract is going to beat Flair too.

This new proposed SWG payscale doesn't make sense to me. 75 MMG (as per the table) X 12 months = 900 annual hours.

A year 1 Captain making $162.41 per hour X 900 hours = $146,169 (not $151,854 as indicated in the table).

And, the F/O rates look like they approximate 1000 annual hours (Year 1 F/O $66.54/hour = $66,543 annual salary).

Am I missing something?

It’s based on a variable monthly MMG equal to 935/year or 77.91 something per month on a average.

SWGs proposed Hourly Captain rates are higher than Flair but salary based on mmg is higher under Flairs proposed TA.

I would like to commend tbaylx for being on this forum and taking an active part in all the discussions. He is a true leader and we need more people like him. I hope he addresses low FO salary at Flair.

[MaxAuto]

It’s based on a variable monthly MMG equal to 935/year or 77.91 something per month on a average.

That may be true, but the chart still doesn't make sense.

Captains at $162.41 X 935 hours = $151,853. This looks right on the chart.

F/O's at $66.54 X 935 hours = $62,214. This is incorrect on the chart.

Either way you slice it, unless Captains and F/O's are getting different MMG's, something is wrong with the math somewhere.

80MMG January through July. 75MMG August through December. Something like that.

(80*7)+(75*5)=935 so 66.54*935 62,214.9

[Tdicommuter]

I just had a conversation with a friend in south Africa who is looking at coming over to work for flair. He is being told they would like to hire 80 DEC. To the people who think they don't need to worry about the first officer pay scale because it won't apply I would be super cautious. That many DECs will stop all upgrades for a long time. Maybe you should ask your management what that training plan actually looks like.

Again this is not me being negative or nah saying flair, more concern for people who may get screwed and not see it coming.

Your friend is badly misinformed. I heard from a friend in India that Flair will soon be flying single pilot operations with only FOs and they won’t need any captains!

I'm not sure why you think that using sarcasm is a cleaver way to respond to information. You yourself have already confirmed that flair is taking south African pilots. Are you sarcastically denying that you are hiring DECs from south Africa, or are you refuting the amount of people you are trying to bring over?

Let me ask this differently my friend who is currently undergoing the process to get a TC medical because he thinks he is going to fly for Flair, was told at the Flair roadshow that they would like to hire 80 people. So who is wrong? The rep you sent to south Africa? If I am wrong please tell us how many DECs you plan to hire because to my original point... If it's plenty, then peoples career goals may need to change. Which also means that people may get stuck in the right seat and might want that pay scale fixed now rather than later.

[tbaylx]

I just had a conversation with a friend in south Africa who is looking at coming over to work for flair. He is being told they would like to hire 80 DEC. To the people who think they don't need to worry about the first officer pay scale because it won't apply I would be super cautious. That many DECs will stop all upgrades for a long time. Maybe you should ask your management what that training plan actually looks like.

Again this is not me being negative or nah saying flair, more concern for people who may get screwed and not see it coming.

Your friend is badly misinformed. I heard from a friend in India that Flair will soon be flying single pilot operations with only FOs and they won’t need any captains!

I'm not sure why you think that using sarcasm is a cleaver way to respond to information. You yourself have already confirmed that flair is taking south African pilots. Are you sarcastically denying that you are hiring DECs from south Africa, or are you refuting the amount of people you are trying to bring over?

Let me ask this differently my friend who is currently undergoing the process to get a TC medical because he thinks he is going to fly for Flair, was told at the Flair roadshow that they would like to hire 80 people. So who is wrong? The rep you sent to south Africa? If I am wrong please tell us how many DECs you plan to hire because to my original point... If it's plenty, then peoples career goals may need to change. Which also means that people may get stuck in the right seat and might want that pay scale fixed now rather than later.

Apologies for the sarcasm. It struck me as ridiculous that we’d somehow disadvantage FOs here by hiring DECs.
Everyone on the property who is qualified is given the opportunity to enter the command upgrade program before DECs are hired.

I’m not going to discuss numbers on a public forum but IF we hire from SA it won’t be 80.

More importantly it doesn’t matter for FO pay. The pay levels in the proposed new contract are competitive for years 1-3. It’s a three year contract, therefore anyone looking at year four and up will get a new contract with new payscales. Anything above year three is irrelevant to a prospective new hire.

Regardless of that logic we’re taking ten aircraft a year and upgrading 75-90 pilots a year. Even if we hired 80 DECs it’s not going to substantially affect upgrade times.

Yes we could end up in a recession or COVID version 16 and everything comes to a grinding halt in the industry, in that case see above. Year 4 and up FO pay will certainly be addressed in the next contract when this one expires.

It’s the same reason years of service don’t matter right now. FOs are upgrading in under a year, so they start at year 1 Captain pay even if they carried YOS. That’s a next contract issue as well.

[Anonymouse]

I just can't back a contract that says captains are worth more than twice what first officers are worth. Why were FOs ignored this negotiation? A short contact and fast upgrades aren't an excuse.

[Apestogetherstrong]

I just can't back a contract that says captains are worth more than twice what first officers are worth. Why were FOs ignored this negotiation? A short contact and fast upgrades aren't an excuse.

I agree. FO’s were definitely overlooked. Whats another $16k worth for Flair to add on to year one salary? If you can afford to increase Cap salary from $114k to $150k, you can easily fix the contract by raising FO salary to $89k. This will prevent a lot of FO’s from leaving. Think about what WJ and AC are going to do. If they improve their FO and Cap salary, w ill you then try to fix the contract in between the 3 year term?

VOTE NO EVERYONE!

[tbaylx]

You’re missing the point. The captain salary wasn’t competitive and needed to come up. It did.

The FO year 1-3 salary was and remains competitive so didn't get adjusted nearly as much. It’s still higher than most other 705’s.

It’s a three year contract, no it likely won’t get opened up mid term.

[tryingtohide]

The voting was supposed to end on the 16th. Does anyone know when an announcement will be made?

[indieadventurer]

Due to a delay in getting the TA document to the pilot group the vote window was pushed. It closes on the 21st.

[daedalusx]

Why is everyone blaming Flair management if ALPA negotiated the TA and the entire MEC is in favour of it ?

[Canadaflyer46]

Why is everyone blaming Flair management if ALPA negotiated the TA and the entire MEC is in favour of it ?

And their MEC sure don’t seem to give two shits about FOs. Same with the Sunwing MEC, they claimed they would ‘change the face of aviation’ with their new pay scales. Talk about an anticlimax.

[daedalusx]

Why is everyone blaming Flair management if ALPA negotiated the TA and the entire MEC is in favour of it ?

And their MEC sure don’t seem to give two shits about FOs. Same with the Sunwing MEC, they claimed they would ‘change the face of aviation’ with their new pay scales. Talk about an anticlimax.

Well the funny thing about that is if it was truly "historic" and "changing the face of aviation" ... they wouldn't have to use these adjectives to sell it, the numbers would have spoken for themselves. I think both the SWG management and the union needed a W after the TFW fiasco and that's the best they came up with to calm the tempers until the WJ merge.

Either way, and I could be wrong, but it seems like Flair needs more Capt than they need F/Os and by setting up the payscale as it is, they're forcing their qualified FOs to upgrade ASAP. If say year 1/2 FO was 100K/120K, a lot of guys would just stay on the right seat for a bit longer thus slowing their expansion plan. Plus, with an attractive Capt salary, it would attract a some of the SWG drivers that will bail before/during the WJ merger.

[Tdicommuter]

Your friend is badly misinformed. I heard from a friend in India that Flair will soon be flying single pilot operations with only FOs and they won’t need any captains!

I'm not sure why you think that using sarcasm is a cleaver way to respond to information. You yourself have already confirmed that flair is taking south African pilots. Are you sarcastically denying that you are hiring DECs from south Africa, or are you refuting the amount of people you are trying to bring over?

Let me ask this differently my friend who is currently undergoing the process to get a TC medical because he thinks he is going to fly for Flair, was told at the Flair roadshow that they would like to hire 80 people. So who is wrong? The rep you sent to south Africa? If I am wrong please tell us how many DECs you plan to hire because to my original point... If it's plenty, then peoples career goals may need to change. Which also means that people may get stuck in the right seat and might want that pay scale fixed now rather than later.

Apologies for the sarcasm. It struck me as ridiculous that we’d somehow disadvantage FOs here by hiring DECs.
Everyone on the property who is qualified is given the opportunity to enter the command upgrade program before DECs are hired.

I’m not going to discuss numbers on a public forum but IF we hire from SA it won’t be 80.

More importantly it doesn’t matter for FO pay. The pay levels in the proposed new contract are competitive for years 1-3. It’s a three year contract, therefore anyone looking at year four and up will get a new contract with new payscales. Anything above year three is irrelevant to a prospective new hire.

Regardless of that logic we’re taking ten aircraft a year and upgrading 75-90 pilots a year. Even if we hired 80 DECs it’s not going to substantially affect upgrade times.

Yes we could end up in a recession or COVID version 16 and everything comes to a grinding halt in the industry, in that case see above. Year 4 and up FO pay will certainly be addressed in the next contract when this one expires.

It’s the same reason years of service don’t matter right now. FOs are upgrading in under a year, so they start at year 1 Captain pay even if they carried YOS. That’s a next contract issue as well.

I do not see how people being hired DEC wouldn't affect people's careers. Is it possible for a DEC to get hired.. pull YYC base for example, and then hold it instead of someone senior who when upgraded now cannot hold a base due to lack of slots at time of upgrade? I think in that scenario it would impact people's careers, or would you be able to bump someone out of their base and slot via some kind of super seniority?

To your point if years 4 and above are meaningless then adjust them now because it's just a paper excercise anyway as you are inferring. The problem on the next contract when you actually have say 50 people going into year four the capital cost increase is huge where now it's nothing. That will move bargaining capital away from other gains like captain raises. Same goes for years of service if it's a nothing move then put it into the contract now. You know very well that it will cost loads of money to add that in down the road. To me that seems disingenuous to try and advocate we don't need it now because it doesn't matter anyway... Well if it doesnt matter then give it to the guys and gals.

Back to the matter about hiring abroad... I would think those numbers should be public because it very much affects those not on property interviewing at Flair, and those of us who want labour shortage to force higher wages for experience.

[MAX8 Driver]

It's quite simple. Vote no.

[Hangry]

Hiring foreign CA’s is good for you! How can you not see it???

[Arnie Pye]

I just can't back a contract that says captains are worth more than twice what first officers are worth. Why were FOs ignored this negotiation? A short contact and fast upgrades aren't an excuse.

I agree. FO’s were definitely overlooked. Whats another $16k worth for Flair to add on to year one salary? If you can afford to increase Cap salary from $114k to $150k, you can easily fix the contract by raising FO salary to $89k. This will prevent a lot of FO’s from leaving. Think about what WJ and AC are going to do. If they improve their FO and Cap salary, w ill you then try to fix the contract in between the 3 year term?

VOTE NO EVERYONE!

The Captain salary probably should have been $165 and it would still be significantly lower than everyone else. The FO salary is probably in the right range given that it is ahead of 99% of other airlines today.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Just saw Encore also increased their payscales.

Encore gluck gluck 5000

Highlights of the Deal are as followed:

Captains and First Officers will receive lump sum payments of $850 a month if they are Active for one day in the pay period.
Captains and First Officers both move up 2 Pay Steps on January 1, 2023 (i.e., if you are a Captain on a year 3 pay step, you will now be on a year 5 Captain pay step).
New Captains and First Officers will start at year 3 of their respective pay steps.
New Captain Pay Steps added for year 7 and 8 at $106.56 and $109.49 respectively.
Training Pilots will receive a lump sum payment of $500 a month.
Line Indoctrination instructors will receive $120 per training day, previously was $90.
ACP will receive $200 per training day, previously was $155.
Training Pilot expenses account, amount available is $600 per month (this does not roll over), claims must comply with the corporate expense policy.
ATPL course (i.e., Aerocourse) reimbursed for First Officers with receipts, they will also receive a $500 one-time payment when completed.

This MOA would be effective from January 1,2023 until December 31, 2023, or until the date the next Collective Agreement takes effect, whichever is later.

[flyinhigh]

I just can't back a contract that says captains are worth more than twice what first officers are worth. Why were FOs ignored this negotiation? A short contact and fast upgrades aren't an excuse.

I agree. FO’s were definitely overlooked. Whats another $16k worth for Flair to add on to year one salary? If you can afford to increase Cap salary from $114k to $150k, you can easily fix the contract by raising FO salary to $89k. This will prevent a lot of FO’s from leaving. Think about what WJ and AC are going to do. If they improve their FO and Cap salary, w ill you then try to fix the contract in between the 3 year term?

VOTE NO EVERYONE!

What's with the push to 89K. Before this came out you said it was 89K. Throughout this post, you've preached 89K. Have huge debts or what.

This contract, from what I've saw is a hard NO for various reasons...BUT the FO payscale is comparable within Canada (not saying its right or not).