Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

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deejizzle
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Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by deejizzle »

Hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster. I figure 2023 is the year I finally put my money where my mouth is and embark on this journey. I am just in the very early stages of planning, and I was hoping to get some insight on the 2 major flight schools in the London, ON area (DFS and STFC). Other than the obvious Diamond vs Cessna, could someone maybe share their experiences with the above schools (Quality of instructors, availability of planes/instructors, etc)? Although I know this is more of a question for the schools themselves, but was hoping if anyone also had firsthand knowledge about hiring their own students as instructs (if everything goes well).

Thanks in advance
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Bede
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by Bede »

One consideration is time to get to the practice area. Sitting on the ground paying $250/hr waiting for clearance eats up a lot of training time.

WRT instructors, go meet some instructors and ask them where they trained. That will give you some idea about getting hired once done.
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

What's the end goal? You want to get your CPL + M.E. IFR, or just a PPL to have fun with your friends flying on weekends?

Can't tell you much about the school themselves, but what Bede said above is correct. I'll go a bit further and say this:

It doesn't matter what plane you fly. The most important one is to get the cheapest rates possible. Of course, that doesn't mean you go to an outfit that cuts (safety) corners to save money.

Assuming that you want to become a professional pilot (see my question above), any flight school that suggests flying a more technologically advanced aircraft will be extremely beneficial is full of crap, and cares more about getting the most amount of money out of you. Flying a Cessna 150 is just as good as flying a brand new DA40 with fancy G1000, at least for the majority of your CPL training. You want to rent the DA40 here and there to take your friends along? You can always get checked out in it.

Also, ask other students about instructors. I'd say they're split when it comes to character, skills and integrity. Half only care about themselves and want to get as many hours as possible so they can move on with their careers and the other half actually take pride in their work and genuinely want to pass on their knowledge. Unfortunately, many are also brand new, with 200 - 300 hrs themselves. I'd look for a "career instructor" and go with them.

Good luck.
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JasonE
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by JasonE »

I always feel sorry watching students in control zones paying $250/hr and up waiting for a clearance, then having to fly out of a control zone. DA40 is even more expensive.

You will save thousands learning at an uncontrolled field with a good instructor.
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perlgerl
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by perlgerl »

I'm familiar with those schools, but no recent experience. I can recommend Stratford Air Services which you may wish to consider.

Right now in southern Ontario, the number of students exceeds the numbers of available flight school airplanes and instructors. Some flight schools will accept you as a student, but won't be able to provide lessons at a frequency that results in you efficiently learning. So here's how I'd decide ....
  • Go to a school, and ask for an introductory flight. Typical cost $200. See how long that takes to happen.
  • While you're at the school, meet the instructors and the administrative staff. Are they people you'd like to spend time with? Are they busy? Do they seen happy? Do they seem well organized and efficient? Is it clean?
  • Enjoy the flight. Do you like flying the airplane? Do you feel safe with the airplane and the instructor? Get the sales pitch.
  • Talk to other students. When did they start their training? Are the instructors and airplanes available when they are? How long in advance do they have to book their lessons?
  • Go to a St Thomas or Exeter COPA meeting http://www.copaexeter.ca or the EAA Chapter in Plattsville. You don't need to be a member. Talk to the students and pilots there. Get their advice.
Above all, trust your gut! You're going to be spending a lot of money.
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ellinas
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by ellinas »

perlgerl wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:23 am I'm familiar with those schools, but no recent experience. I can recommend Stratford Air Services which you may wish to consider.

Right now in southern Ontario, the number of students exceeds the numbers of available flight school airplanes and instructors. Some flight schools will accept you as a student, but won't be able to provide lessons at a frequency that results in you efficiently learning. So here's how I'd decide ....
  • Go to a school, and ask for an introductory flight. Typical cost $200. See how long that takes to happen.
  • While you're at the school, meet the instructors and the administrative staff. Are they people you'd like to spend time with? Are they busy? Do they seen happy? Do they seem well organized and efficient? Is it clean?
  • Enjoy the flight. Do you like flying the airplane? Do you feel safe with the airplane and the instructor? Get the sales pitch.
  • Talk to other students. When did they start their training? Are the instructors and airplanes available when they are? How long in advance do they have to book their lessons?
  • Go to a St Thomas or Exeter COPA meeting http://www.copaexeter.ca or the EAA Chapter in Plattsville. You don't need to be a member. Talk to the students and pilots there. Get their advice.
Above all, trust your gut! You're going to be spending a lot of money.
Is there a shortage of flight instructors in Ontario or not?
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Aviatard
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by Aviatard »

ellinas wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:47 am
Is there a shortage of flight instructors in Ontario or not?
No. There’s a shortage of class 2 and 1 instructors.
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Fishizl
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by Fishizl »

JasonE wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:18 am I always feel sorry watching students in control zones paying $250/hr and up waiting for a clearance, then having to fly out of a control zone. DA40 is even more expensive.

You will save thousands learning at an uncontrolled field with a good instructor.
Totally agree. I know I'm not answering your question but consider finding a more rural flight school that gets you out of the circuit, and into the practice area quickly. I did mine years ago in Ottawa and although not a busy airport, it was still a 15 min flight to the practice area. One school that I recently stumbled on was the one based out of Lachute, Quebec. They have a busy school and a close practice area. Smiths Falls is another good one.
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photofly
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by photofly »

To be fair, it takes about three minutes to leave a typical 5nm control zone in a training plane, and there's no reason why you can't commence a bunch of useful exercises even before you leave it, so I wouldn't overplay the "time wasted" element, at least not if your instructor knows what they're doing.

How do schools at the smaller airfields find flying through the snow season - at least in respect of runway clearance? If you fly from a larger controlled airfield you'll never cancel a flight or wait because nobody has cleared the runway yet.

I would probably also want to begin somewhere quiet and sleepy, but pretty soon the extra competence you gain holding your own at a busy controlled airport comes in handy.
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

photofly wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:23 pm To be fair, it takes about three minutes to leave a typical 5nm control zone in a training plane, and there's no reason why you can't commence a bunch of useful exercises even before you leave it, so I wouldn't overplay the "time wasted" element, at least not if your instructor knows what they're doing.

How do schools at the smaller airfields find flying through the snow season - at least in respect of runway clearance? If you fly from a larger controlled airfield you'll never cancel a flight or wait because nobody has cleared the runway yet.

I would probably also want to begin somewhere quiet and sleepy, but pretty soon the extra competence you gain holding your own at a busy controlled airport comes in handy.
That's one aspect. I remember that I would cancel flights when we had winds out of the South in Winnipeg. Taking runway 18 or 13 would be a $65 extra (on top of the regular flight) doing my M.E. IFR. It adds up quickly. I'm not comparing the two scenarios here, but every minute counts when you're paying for it.
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DHC-1 Jockey
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by DHC-1 Jockey »

I live in St. Thomas and have experience both with STFC and DFC and I would say that STFC has the advantage (and some small disadvantages), and I'll list some below:

Advantage: STFC

1. St. Thomas vs London Airports
- London is getting busier and busier. Just look at the NOTAMS issued almost daily that VFR training flights may be delayed XXX minutes or that the tower is closed mid-day for 15-30 minutes due to staffing. Add in the ever-expanding ITPS (getting 3 more L39's next year), plus the addition of Fanshawe's flight program, Flair beginning flights, etc, there is more congestion than ever before. In St. Thomas, you're airborne without delay, the practice area is 10 minutes away and you'll never hear "You're number 5 following the 737 10 miles final. Extend your downwind, I'll call your base." I know you're new to the flying game and might not understand what all that means, but it may be the biggest difference in cost when choosing which airport to operate out of.

2. Instructors
- Like every school, there are instructors who are just there to put in their time and then move on to bigger and better things. I'm sure St. Thomas has some instructors like that, but there are also several older folks who aren't there to just log hours and are there for the long-haul. You can actually fly with the Chief Flight Instructor at STFC which is difficult at the bigger schools.

3. Snow Clearing
- Someone raised a question about snow-clearing in winter. The manager at CYQS is excellent and I don't know the last time the runway has been closed due to a lack of snow clearing. If it snows, the plows are usually out at 4 AM to get the main runway and taxiways cleared by 8:00. In the rare case they can't keep the runways clear, you probably shouldn't be flying anyways.

4. Aircraft Limitations
- Usually, the bigger schools have more restrictive weather minima (especially crosswind/headwind and gust limitations). Flying at a larger school, more flights will be scrubbed due to wind compared to a smaller school. Add to the fact that flying in a Control Zone (Which London has), more flights will be scrubbed due to the higher weather minima to operate in the zone compared to uncontrolled airspace. Looking at DFC's weather limitations on their website, 5 miles visibility, 15 knots max wind speed and 5 knots crosswind for solo circuits is more restrictive than what STFC uses (VFR visibility limits, no restriction on headwind, and 15 knots for crosswind). Not that STFC is less safe, but there are lots of perfectly flyable days with 15-20 knots of steady wind that the instructor can judge is fine for a solo student. Those flights would be cancelled at DFC but would still operate at STFC.

5. University/College Program vs Private Flight School
- If you go with Western of Fanshawe's program, you're beholden to their schedule and syllabus which restricts how quickly you can complete the program. If you go with St. Thomas, you can fly as much or as little as you like. Back when I worked at STFC, a guy did his complete PPL, CPL and Multi-IFR in less than 6 months. His example is an extreme one and he practically lived at the airport, but he got it all done and got a job years before those who started at the same time in London. Being done quicker will get you a job sooner, better pay sooner, more seniority sooner, etc.

6. Controlled vs Uncontrolled Airport Experience
- London is only 15 minutes away from St. Thomas, so when it comes time to do practice at a controlled airport, it's within easy reach. The time saved operating out of a smaller uncontrolled airport will more than pay for the few times you want and need to fly to London to practice controlled airport procedures. I believe operating at an uncontrolled airport makes you a better pilot as well. Making your own decisions will quickly show you what works and doesn't work, and hopefully your airmanship will improve because of it. Operating at a busy controlled airport, they essentially hold your hand around the circuit, so there's less critical-thinking skills involved. At a controlled airport, you're told where to go and what to do, so it's more of a game of following instructions rather than thinking for yourself.

Advantage: DFC

1. Aircraft
- DFC does have more modern aircraft if that's important to you. Flying DFC's fuel-injected DA-42 is probably a treat compared to STFC's 1950's PA-23, and a DA-40 is probably in better shape than an older C-172. However, in this market, companies aren't really looking at what aircraft you flew during your training, and STFC's fleet is more than capable of having what you need to complete all if your training from first flight to CPL and Multi-IFR.

I hope this helps with your decision making. As for hiring their own students as instructors, that's what STFC did with me, and my instructor before me and his instructor before him. Admittedly, that was about 15 years ago, but I believe that practice carries on.

I'm not sure what the "advertised" price difference is between the schools, but factoring in my very first bullet point comparing the two airports, I'm sure STFC will come out ahead.

Lastly, as someone else said, try and book a discovery flight at each school to better help your decision making. How each school makes you "feel" after the experience very important. After all, you'll be spending thousands of dollars, so you should go when you feel most comfortable.

If you have any other questions, feel free to DM me.
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Found
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by Found »

I can also recommend Stratford Air Services, great airport and great school. Diamond has turned down many students in the past and present including myself because they are too busy. Have you even spoken to them to see if they are taking students not enrolled in the Fanshawe or Western programs?
STFC I have heard a lot of people weren’t happy there including myself. I even recall instructors complaining as they try to finish Multi and IFR training.
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joseph105
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Re: Diamond Flight School vs St. Thomas Flight School

Post by joseph105 »

Hello. I saw couple detailed and helpful posts. I might be repeating them but as someone who has first hand experience i wanted to write.

I had my ppl and cpl at stfc. Fleet is not big but there was no issues renting c172s. But if you prefer 152 for the cost it might be a bit problematic since they have only two in the fleet.
Diamond of course has new generation planes. Dont expect that from stfc. 😀
Well when i was living in london, i wanted to switch from stfc to diamond since it was closer to my home. They were not helpful at all. They kindly said we re dealing with college students you re not welcome here lol.
Another thing is cancellations due to wx. Well i have no first hand experience from diamond but i had my multi in bc and i can compare my current school with stfc weather cancellation wise. Here in bc at my school if there is a tiny bit of rain drop, or ity bity cloud in the air they dont let you fly. To fly at night you need 10sm vis or they dont let you fly. They make you sign bunch of papers to let you fly etc. At stfc as long as wx is at or above legal minima you can fly.
I remember stfc once gave me a call when i was driving to school. They told me wx fell to marginal vfr and if i am willing to fly. It is less time consuming to jp in the plane and fly.
Here in delta bc it takes forever to leave control zone and get to practise area. It was soo simple at stfc. Yet I don’t think London will be as bad as bc.
Can’t argue with flying at controlled airport will give you a lot experiences that you cannot gain at an uncontrolled airport.
Stfc was a very hassle free school. I d recommend them.
I wrote the post as quick as possible. Sorry for the grammar mistakes ☺️
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