Announced routes

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C-GGGQ
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Re: Announced routes

Post by C-GGGQ »

YC87DRVR wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:02 am
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Correct me if I am wrong but, why as a 703 king air FO do you think you’re an expert on which airline is best?
703 Captain, but fair enough. Pay rates are public knowledge. Working conditions are basically all thats talked about here. I have former coworkers and friends at all of the above giving me first hand info on morale and conditions. Encore is the only one where someone I knew personally went sideways to a different regional after working there. Pretty much all the airlines are losing some to AC etc, but which ones are losing people fastest and which ones are having sideways moves is telling.
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newlygrounded
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Re: Announced routes

Post by newlygrounded »

C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by C-GGGQ »

The delay in TC certification of the jets probably didn’t help, but as I understand it they saved a lot being shut down. So who knows? They aren’t paying more right now because when they came up with the payscales they claimed it was competitive based on the competition. If we’re all being honest then yes. The Q rates were pretty much the same as the others and the jet is close to others for the first few years.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by NTPilot »

newlygrounded wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
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Re: Announced routes

Post by braaap Braap »

NTPilot wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s

Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.

I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

newlygrounded wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
From what I understand they got a pretty good deal on the E2s. Also, sold them to a few leasing companies for a small profit then leased them back right away. Which I believe is termed appropriately a leaseback :)


Again, I have zero idea as to what exactly was written in that deal, but I do believe that they are making sound business decisions and cost per mile for the E2 is wayyyyy better than mostly everything other than the 220.
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Last edited by CaptDukeNukem on Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

braaap Braap wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pm
NTPilot wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s

Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.

I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
I’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.

Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by braaap Braap »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:40 pm
braaap Braap wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pm
NTPilot wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s

Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.

I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
I’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.

Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
Don't get me wrong, I'd sign a card today. I think 2% is well worth it to have:

1) Access to a legal department not paid for by the RD family (should I need it - knock on wood)
2) Be pulling in the same direction as the majority of the industry
3) Have some nicer merger protections in place if it ever came to that.

IMO we've outgrown the FOAG. The committee is lacking teeth. Stuff is getting changed on a whim here and there with no real transparency and I think the anemic engagement from the pilot group is a sign of a "whatever" attitude.

I just don't think the Porter group should be lambasted or eyerolled at because they haven't decided to go that direction (yet).
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newlygrounded
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Re: Announced routes

Post by newlygrounded »

NTPilot wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:20 am And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows

If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
There were plenty of costs that were hard to swallow while making no income, afaik even most of the mechanics were laid off.

They got a large loan from the government, if they were doing well financially I wouldn't see them doing that. They also probably had some cash laying around from selling the terminal a few years ago but that's obviously a 1 time benefit.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.6087309
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Re: Announced routes

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

braaap Braap wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:34 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:40 pm
braaap Braap wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pm

They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s

Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.

I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
I’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.

Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
Don't get me wrong, I'd sign a card today. I think 2% is well worth it to have:

1) Access to a legal department not paid for by the RD family (should I need it - knock on wood)
2) Be pulling in the same direction as the majority of the industry
3) Have some nicer merger protections in place if it ever came to that.

IMO we've outgrown the FOAG. The committee is lacking teeth. Stuff is getting changed on a whim here and there with no real transparency and I think the anemic engagement from the pilot group is a sign of a "whatever" attitude.

I just don't think the Porter group should be lambasted or eyerolled at because they haven't decided to go that direction (yet).
Having a lawyer other than one appointed by the company is always good lol.

You’re right, the FOAG is old, and certain chapters need to be rewritten completely, especially with the E2 coming into play. And yes the company has been randomly adding and changing policies to fit what works for them.

In my previous time at companies unionized by ALPA, I did not feel that they had the teeth required for major gains. It’s a slow climb at best. They all try their best, and especially when newly appointed board members are gung ho about making changes.

The reality is, it’s never that simple, it’s always a trade: you get something when you give something back.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good thing to have proper representation and for sure ALPA can help in certain ways. But once you sign that contract, you’re stuck with it…. (Jazz 2035)
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Re: Announced routes

Post by Crewbunk »

CaptDukeNukem wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:34 pm From what I understand they got a pretty good deal on the E2s. Also, sold them to a few leasing companies for a small profit then leased them back right away. Which I believe is termed appropriately a leaseback :)


Again, I have zero idea as to what exactly was written in that deal, but I do believe that they are making sound business decisions and cost per mile for the E2 is wayyyyy better than mostly everything other than the 220.
Yes, that is what Porter did; sold some of the purchased E2-195s and are now leasing them back. They did the same thing with the terminal at YTZ. It’s not a good sign. It’s indicative of “burning the furniture to heat the house”. The long term for such an endeavour is rarely better.

They sold the YTZ terminal for about $550M and are leasing it back for $54M a year. It burned them during the Covid shutdown, as their recently lost court case requires they pay back the $100M+ accrued for rent/slots even though it wasn’t used.

The cost per mile of the 195 is good, but not “wayyyyyy” better. But …. that is per airplane mile, not seat mile. The best seat mile costs for a 4-5 hour flight are the Max8 (189 seats) and the A321 (200 seats). The 189 seat 737-800 is still worthy of mention, and still better than an E2-195.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by fish4life »

Don’t underestimate the most important part of having a union in place… SCOPE

Sure there is a pilot shortage today but let’s say we hit a bad recession and suddenly there is a surplus of pilots. Porter could open a YYC and yvr base and call it west porter but pay the E2 drivers 10% less and you can’t do anything about it. L

Look at the westjet pilots they found out the hard way with the company creating swoop before they had it in their contract
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Re: Announced routes

Post by co-joe »

Donald wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:30 am Porter pays less than everyone, except maybe Swoop. How are they possibly going to crew 50 jets?
Their issue isn't crewing 50 jets, it's crewing the Q400's after all those pilots move onto the jets. That's why opening western pilot bases won't help them. They need the Jet carrot dangle to somehow bring qualified pilots who will work for peanuts in YTZ. Hiring ots jet pilots in the west where they don't have any turboprops won't help that at all.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by vanislepilot »

co-joe wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:48 pm
Donald wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:30 am Porter pays less than everyone, except maybe Swoop. How are they possibly going to crew 50 jets?
Their issue isn't crewing 50 jets, it's crewing the Q400's after all those pilots move onto the jets. That's why opening western pilot bases won't help them. They need the Jet carrot dangle to somehow bring qualified pilots who will work for peanuts in YTZ. Hiring ots jet pilots in the west where they don't have any turboprops won't help that at all.
Oh boy they already have worked on keeping the crew on those jets. Everyone hired on the dash 8 at porter after 2022 has been subjected to a 2 year fleet lock from date of hire. This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by C-GGGQ »

It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?
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Re: Announced routes

Post by vanislepilot »

C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:24 am It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?
2 years that can be waived for operational requirements. This would have been fine if it was addressed properly. A lot of pilots were awarded the jet, given groundschool dates, planned their lives accordingly. THEN the company turned around and cancelled their groundschools stating a shortage of q pilots less than 30 days before some pilots GS (A shortage that can very easily be fixed imo) and slapping them with a 2 year Q lock.
With a lot of jet fo positions readily available at other companies this was a piss poor move.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by co-joe »

vanislepilot wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:07 am
Oh boy they already have worked on keeping the crew on those jets. Everyone hired on the dash 8 at porter after 2022 has been subjected to a 2 year fleet lock from date of hire. This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.
Nothing motivates people to leave more than a glass ceiling. Look at Encore and Jazz right now, they're leaving in droves because the carrot dangle got moldy or went away.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by braaap Braap »

vanislepilot wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:07 am
...This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.
Because overall I think Porter's pilot group is quite anemic. Half have been here for a long time and are happy. The other half are brand new and for many of them it's their first exposure to 705 and don't want to rock the boat too much.

I agree the move was greasy. Infuriating how it was promised that it wasn't a lock in the Oct call "because it's an initial award not a transition" and then yanked the award. Only way to push back is go somewhere else or find better representation.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by ReducedSeparation »

vanislepilot wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:42 am
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:24 am It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?
2 years that can be waived for operational requirements. This would have been fine if it was addressed properly. A lot of pilots were awarded the jet, given groundschool dates, planned their lives accordingly. THEN the company turned around and cancelled their groundschools stating a shortage of q pilots less than 30 days before some pilots GS (A shortage that can very easily be fixed imo) and slapping them with a 2 year Q lock.
With a lot of jet fo positions readily available at other companies this was a piss poor move.
And don’t forget that all of those pilots who were awarded the E2 then had it taken away a week later had their resumes out for other carriers the very next day.
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Re: Announced routes

Post by carnie »

I understand their frustration/anger re having their offer rescinded but common man, most of those folks had been at the company all of 7/8 months tops. A wee bit of entitlement no? I guess voice your anger with your feet if you are that pissed.
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