Based on what numbers?
Announced routes
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Re: Announced routes
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Re: Announced routes
Swoop and Lynx are just downright embarrassing. Make more flying a King Air doing medivac work.
Re: Announced routes
-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
Re: Announced routes
- WSP means low takehome pay on an already low salaryNTPilot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
- why make it a lump sum and not just have a better rate?
- this is just false. From the thread in WJ lowest FO holding a block in yyz is 2020 hire. Yyc is worse.
Re: Announced routes
What you are saying is correct!C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:54 am- WSP means low takehome pay on an already low salaryNTPilot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
- why make it a lump sum and not just have a better rate?
- this is just false. From the thread in WJ lowest FO holding a block in yyz is 2020 hire. Yyc is worse.
But the end of the year you take home more cash in WJ on the jets,
Now in the new LOU encore is paying that money every months, so for Q400 porter pays 43k and encore pays about 59k a year,
This is the new Encore Q400 pay scale I found from the other forum,
But also consider this, your parking is paid for (saving $2000 a year almost),
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Re: Announced routes
Plus Calgary is a lot more affordable than Toronto…NTPilot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:26 amWhat you are saying is correct!C-GGGQ wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:54 am- WSP means low takehome pay on an already low salaryNTPilot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm
-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
- why make it a lump sum and not just have a better rate?
- this is just false. From the thread in WJ lowest FO holding a block in yyz is 2020 hire. Yyc is worse.
But the end of the year you take home more cash in WJ on the jets,
Now in the new LOU encore is paying that money every months, so for Q400 porter pays 43k and encore pays about 59k a year,
This is the new Encore Q400 pay scale I found from the other forum,
But also consider this, your parking is paid for (saving $2000 a year almost),
Re: Announced routes
You missed probably the biggest factor for WJ vs Porter: YOSNTPilot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
Re: Announced routes
How long are those WJ upgrade times again? Not to mention the fact that management there is so bad that they sidestepped a newly formed union and created swoop with it’s lower labour costs lolNTPilot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
I find it hard to say “go to WJ” for someone early on in their career when it’s a company in full retreat, where you’d be sitting on reserve for years and waiting on an upgrade for at least a decade. If you want to live in Calgary I can see why someone would apply, but other then that why invest your career into a company whose overlords don’t even want to invest into it anymore? Onex is gonna make their asset as high value as possible before selling, and that means more pink tails than teal.
Re: Announced routes
Why go to a company early on in your career when you're likely to end up on a Q400 making 44k a year base salary living in one of the most expensive cities in the world, which is were I presume most end up being based out of... Not to mention that commuting to YTZ is a pain in the ass, and, as far as I know, parking isn't even paid for, and we all know how expensive it is to park anywhere near YTZ (if parking is paid then I stand corrected).8895 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:35 amHow long are those WJ upgrade times again? Not to mention the fact that management there is so bad that they sidestepped a newly formed union and created swoop with it’s lower labour costs lolNTPilot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
I find it hard to say “go to WJ” for someone early on in their career when it’s a company in full retreat, where you’d be sitting on reserve for years and waiting on an upgrade for at least a decade. If you want to live in Calgary I can see why someone would apply, but other then that why invest your career into a company whose overlords don’t even want to invest into it anymore? Onex is gonna make their asset as high value as possible before selling, and that means more pink tails than teal.
It doesn't matter how good the working environment is, it doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table, and right now, 60k is barely liveable for a single person anywhere in the GTA, nevermind 44k
Re: Announced routes
That’s very well said,8895 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:35 amHow long are those WJ upgrade times again? Not to mention the fact that management there is so bad that they sidestepped a newly formed union and created swoop with it’s lower labour costs lolNTPilot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
I find it hard to say “go to WJ” for someone early on in their career when it’s a company in full retreat, where you’d be sitting on reserve for years and waiting on an upgrade for at least a decade. If you want to live in Calgary I can see why someone would apply, but other then that why invest your career into a company whose overlords don’t even want to invest into it anymore? Onex is gonna make their asset as high value as possible before selling, and that means more pink tails than teal.
about the mainline WJ yes upgrades takes long time, but in encore is as long as any other airline
Now what are the main options for a pilot that is in his early career in regionals: Porter Jazz and Encore
- porter pays FO $43,940/1st year and 80k capt, was the only company in pandemic that shut down the operation and laid off all the pilots, last airline to open the operation and bring back FOs at reduced salary, (because there’s no union to defend your rights basically), the pilot health benefits starts after months 3 and no internal ticket for pilots for first 3 months. I personally know one of the top problem the pilots have is parking issue and they spent 2k a year from their own salary for that
-With Jazz you have AC path but you will be making 40k for time being and upgrade which now I guess is fast then Capt start at 80k and the benefits are very descent and good I believe. They can your their internal ticket from day one.
-Encore they have only Calgary base for new hires, you start at 60k first year FO and then Capt 100k after upgrade which is not too long again. The flow to WJ main line takes time and new hires cannot carry their seniority number to mainline,(before December 22 hires can), your health benefit start from day one
Now for someone that is in his early career, already paid 80k for his pilot licenses, probably has loan, and has worked as an instructor or flew up north for very low salary already, which one is a better option
I’m just advocating for better life and work conditions for pilot, regardless of what company it is
I hope porter raise their salary And I’ll be suggesting any one to go there, but a pilot with 43k/year cannot afford living in toronto and going to YTZ, it should be criminal
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Re: Announced routes
100%. And you’re right for the parking.twa22 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:54 amWhy go to a company early on in your career when you're likely to end up on a Q400 making 44k a year base salary living in one of the most expensive cities in the world, which is were I presume most end up being based out of... Not to mention that commuting to YTZ is a pain in the ass, and, as far as I know, parking isn't even paid for, and we all know how expensive it is to park anywhere near YTZ (if parking is paid then I stand corrected).8895 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:35 amHow long are those WJ upgrade times again? Not to mention the fact that management there is so bad that they sidestepped a newly formed union and created swoop with it’s lower labour costs lolNTPilot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:09 pm
-WJ has 20% WSP company matching ( you put 20% of your salary company double it and give it to you in one year)
-WJ pays 7300k at the end of each year to FO
-Encore just raised the Q400 wages to approximately 60k
-WJ has union
-The 10% end of the list pilots are usually in reserve and right now it’s about a year
-WJ pays for pilots parking
-the new contract is in negotiations for swoop and WJ and with very good chance both companies are gonna have same wages
I don’t work for WJ but my point is between WJ and porter the answer is obvious!
I find it hard to say “go to WJ” for someone early on in their career when it’s a company in full retreat, where you’d be sitting on reserve for years and waiting on an upgrade for at least a decade. If you want to live in Calgary I can see why someone would apply, but other then that why invest your career into a company whose overlords don’t even want to invest into it anymore? Onex is gonna make their asset as high value as possible before selling, and that means more pink tails than teal.
It doesn't matter how good the working environment is, it doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table, and right now, 60k is barely liveable for a single person anywhere in the GTA, nevermind 44k
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Re: Announced routes
Just to be aware:
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking
Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.
Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.
The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.
Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.
The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking
Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.
Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.
The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.
Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.
The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
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Re: Announced routes
Also, I must admit I got sucked into this thread. But isn’t the subject “announced routes”. We are way off topic here. Regroup.
Re: Announced routes
No no no... This is such a piss poor mentality to haveCaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:29 am Just to be aware:
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking
Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.
Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.
The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.
Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.
The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
Does the happiness and great work environment pay for my kids food? Or for my mortgage payment or rent? Let me do some simple math for for you if it isn't already obvious
44000 a year base is 3700 a month PRE TAX. Just deducted Basic tax, you are left with roughly 3000 a month, give or take
Rent is 2500 for a one bedroom downtown Toronto these days. Ok you can maybe find for 2000, but no where near downtown. So what, you maybe have 1000 left to feed yourself? Then you have to pay for a car or transport, cellphone, internet, etc
Do you not see a problem here? You literally cannot live off 3000 a month in hand. I don't know what the per diem situation or other pay is, but the pay is atrocious.
Please, do not use "good working environment" and "they take care of us" to excuse the crap pay... It's embarrassing and it's the reason it brings down our industry and we can't raise wages across the board
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Re: Announced routes
Yes you’re right.twa22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:22 amNo no no... This is such a piss poor mentality to haveCaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:29 am Just to be aware:
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking
Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.
Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.
The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.
Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.
The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
Does the happiness and great work environment pay for my kids food? Or for my mortgage payment or rent? Let me do some simple math for for you if it isn't already obvious
44000 a year base is 3700 a month PRE TAX. Just deducted Basic tax, you are left with roughly 3000 a month, give or take
Rent is 2500 for a one bedroom downtown Toronto these days. Ok you can maybe find for 2000, but no where near downtown. So what, you maybe have 1000 left to feed yourself? Then you have to pay for a car or transport, cellphone, internet, etc
Do you not see a problem here? You literally cannot live off 3000 a month in hand. I don't know what the per diem situation or other pay is, but the pay is atrocious.
Please, do not use "good working environment" and "they take care of us" to excuse the crap pay... It's embarrassing and it's the reason it brings down our industry and we can't raise wages across the board
Pay is atrocious for entry level pilots.
I am very aware of the problem at that level. We’ve all suffered.
I’m just saying others calculations regarding encore porter and jazz are wrong.
Re: Announced routes
Fair enough, and don't get me wrong, I agree with you on working environment, it absolutely matters and if pay is the same across the board then I agree, select the one that has better working environment and quality of life (as long as it makes sense in other aspects too)CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:46 amYes you’re right.twa22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:22 amNo no no... This is such a piss poor mentality to haveCaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:29 am Just to be aware:
There is a monthly stipend at porter that is given to pilots regarding parking
Does it completely cover the cost of parking…NO.
Are the pilots paying $2000 per year for parking…..NO.
Someone mentioned parking at YTZ. I don’t think the monthly stipend was given to pay for parking in downtown Toronto. Lots of people live nearby and walk or take a train to union station and shuttle it to the island.
The parking may have to change or get increased in the future. The island airport does not have a parkade big enough for all of porter’s staff, Which is why they can’t offer a contracted parking facility.
Also, factor in genuine happiness to go to work at porter and then you will understand why some choose Porter over others.
The airline looks after its people, no union required.
Simple fact.
Does the happiness and great work environment pay for my kids food? Or for my mortgage payment or rent? Let me do some simple math for for you if it isn't already obvious
44000 a year base is 3700 a month PRE TAX. Just deducted Basic tax, you are left with roughly 3000 a month, give or take
Rent is 2500 for a one bedroom downtown Toronto these days. Ok you can maybe find for 2000, but no where near downtown. So what, you maybe have 1000 left to feed yourself? Then you have to pay for a car or transport, cellphone, internet, etc
Do you not see a problem here? You literally cannot live off 3000 a month in hand. I don't know what the per diem situation or other pay is, but the pay is atrocious.
Please, do not use "good working environment" and "they take care of us" to excuse the crap pay... It's embarrassing and it's the reason it brings down our industry and we can't raise wages across the board
Pay is atrocious for entry level pilots.
I am very aware of the problem at that level. We’ve all suffered.
I’m just saying others calculations regarding encore porter and jazz are wrong.
I just wanted to make sure that we are not accepting lower pay standards because somewhere is good to work.
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Re: Announced routes
Totally, crap pay is crap pay. No one should be subject to it lol.twa22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:08 amFair enough, and don't get me wrong, I agree with you on working environment, it absolutely matters and if pay is the same across the board then I agree, select the one that has better working environment and quality of life (as long as it makes sense in other aspects too)CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:46 amYes you’re right.twa22 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:22 am
No no no... This is such a piss poor mentality to have
Does the happiness and great work environment pay for my kids food? Or for my mortgage payment or rent? Let me do some simple math for for you if it isn't already obvious
44000 a year base is 3700 a month PRE TAX. Just deducted Basic tax, you are left with roughly 3000 a month, give or take
Rent is 2500 for a one bedroom downtown Toronto these days. Ok you can maybe find for 2000, but no where near downtown. So what, you maybe have 1000 left to feed yourself? Then you have to pay for a car or transport, cellphone, internet, etc
Do you not see a problem here? You literally cannot live off 3000 a month in hand. I don't know what the per diem situation or other pay is, but the pay is atrocious.
Please, do not use "good working environment" and "they take care of us" to excuse the crap pay... It's embarrassing and it's the reason it brings down our industry and we can't raise wages across the board
Pay is atrocious for entry level pilots.
I am very aware of the problem at that level. We’ve all suffered.
I’m just saying others calculations regarding encore porter and jazz are wrong.
I just wanted to make sure that we are not accepting lower pay standards because somewhere is good to work.
But if you were to chooooooooossseeeee…..
Re: Announced routes
And lets be honest, until what last week? Two weeks ago? Encore and Porter pay was equivalent. Jazz lagged behind both. Encore bumped pay because they can’t hang on to pilots. Hopefully the others follow suit.
Re: Announced routes
Correct me if I am wrong but, why as a 703 king air FO do you think you’re an expert on which airline is best?