MOA

[skyhighh]

What do pilots think about it? Is there a single good reason to say no to this? I keep hearing pilots saying they are against it. I haven’t been able to hear a single good argument against the MOA. What are people’s thought?

[PostmasterGeneral]

It’s nowhere near enough. Plain and simple.

[averageatbest]

It’s nowhere near enough. Plain and simple.

No, it's not.

But it is a significant increase in pay now. We can demand more at the end of next year with CBA #2

[Dronepiper]

The problem is so much greater than pay. Right now, any encore pilot hired today will not have reserved seniority at mainline. This is a massive problem with the amount of projected hiring going on at mainline/swoop over the next 3 years.

Also, the Encore pilots who have been on property for the past few years also have questionable seniority rights with the cancellation of the PTA; and the acquisition of Sunwing.

There are pilots hired at westjet/swoop with 1500 hours and a fresh ATPL that are starting to accrue mainline YOS (Years of Service) pay from day 1. Meanwhile there are 3-4000 hour Captains at encore who won’t have a chance to flow for another 4-5 years.

Once they flow, they will start at Year 1 YOS pay and vacation, meanwhile the less experienced Pilot who went straight to mainline will already be at Year 5 on the payscale. Sure encore pilots will get reip payments, but that is not nearly enough to make up that difference.

As long as this continues, encore will not be a career destination. No one should go to encore if they have any intention of going to mainline WJ.

It’s almost more advantageous to go sit at Jazz or some other 705 op for 6-12 months, and then apply directly to Westjet Mainline or Swoop.

Don’t get me wrong, swoop has pretty awful starting wages too. I think encore FO’s technically make more money now then a Year 1 swoop FO (which is insanity), but at least swoop pilots get Years of Service for pay and vacation, and they can bid over to mainline after their 2 year freeze. It’s not a flow for swoop pilots, it’s a simple bid. I am also positive the Swoop pay will be fixed by the summer when CA2 is finalized.

[Dronepiper]

See the attached memo from the encore union. They make it clear that this does not address their primary concerns.

Pilots in Canada have so much leverage right now. The company approached the union to address their problems. It wasn’t the other way around. We need to stand united.

Just look at AC pilots. They voted a HARD NO because they knew they being taken advantage of. They knew that the ball was in their court.

[skyhighh]

It’s nowhere near enough. Plain and simple.

So you would rather have nothing? This is not a negotiation, this is an MOA. If it’s not enough people will keep leaving and an MOA #2 will be required or it’ll be negotiated during the negotiations at the end of next year. Would you rather start the next negotiations from the current salary or the one of this MOA? Sounds simple to me.

The problem is so much greater than pay. Right now, any encore pilot hired today will not have reserved seniority at mainline. This is a massive problem with the amount of projected hiring going on at mainline/swoop over the next 3 years.

Also, the Encore pilots who have been on property for the past few years also have questionable seniority rights with the cancellation of the PTA; and the acquisition of Sunwing.

There are pilots hired at westjet/swoop with 1500 hours and a fresh ATPL that are starting to accrue mainline YOS (Years of Service) pay from day 1. Meanwhile there are Captains at encore who won’t have a chance to flow for another 4-5 years.

Once they flow, they will start at Year 1 YOS pay and vacation, meanwhile the less experienced Pilot who went straight to mainline will already be at Year 5 on the payscale. Sure encore pilots will get reip payments, but that is not nearly enough to make up that difference.

As long as this continues, encore will not be a career destination. No one should go to encore if they have any intention of going to mainline WJ.

It’s almost more advantageous to go sit at Jazz or some other 705 op for 6-12 months, and then apply directly to Westjet Mainline or Swoop.

I agree with every single points you are mentioning.
But… how saying NO to this MOA would help the problems you’re mentioning? If it’s not enough, people will keep leaving or not apply. The pressure for th3 company will remain the same. The only difference is that now the pilots currently on property will be making more money. I can’t find a single negative to saying yes to this. I am not aware of anything the company asked in return (Did I miss something?). Do people actually think that more experienced pilots will apply because of this? If voting yes, what are the pilots afraid of? What would the negative be?

I’m not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

[skyhighh]

See the attached memo from the encore union. They make it clear that this does not address their primary concerns.

Pilots in Canada have so much leverage right now. The company approached the union to address their problems. It wasn’t the other way around. We need to stand united.

Just look at AC pilots. They voted a HARD NO because they knew they being taken advantage of. They knew that the ball was in their court.

Dronepiper I’m sorry to say that but, you are misinformed. The Air Canada pilots voted NO because of what they had to give up in return. The MOA that is presented to the WEN pilots is not remotely comparable to what was presented to the AC group.
The company is asking for nothing (that I know of) in return whereas the AC MOA had multiple requests attached to it including one that literally would have given away all bargaining leverage to the pilots. This MOA presented to the Encore pilots is free cash. What would they give up by saying yes?

[olivierw]

Here is the problem I have with the MOA:

• The MOA is heavily targeted at incentivizing the training department. Most of the money goes to trainers. The company made it clear we didn't have a deal unless they could heavily incentivize training. This means they'll be able to attract more and a better quality of trainers.

• The MOA incentivizes the first and second year FO more significantly than other pilots. This means they'll be able to attract more pilots.

• This MOA makes Encore ever so slightly more attractive than other regionals. This once again means they'll be able to attract more pilots.

Conclusion: we don't retain anyone on those wages. But we do attract them. If we can attract more pilots, this will ease the pressure on management as it will partly ease their pilot problem (keep in mind Encore isn't in the business of keeping pilots. Encore is business of hiring, training, and losing pilots). This will inevitably erode our bargaining power.

And this is why I'm thinking of voting "no" until they offer us something that actually adresses the issue of pilot retention and career progression, such as offering years of service transfer to mainline.

[olivierw]

The company is asking for nothing (that I know of) in return whereas the AC MOA had multiple requests attached to it including one that literally would have given away all bargaining leverage to the pilots. This MOA presented to the Encore pilots is free cash. What would they give up by saying yes?

Nothing is free. This is business. The company isn't offering you money because they want to make you happy, or because of the WestJet spirit.

They're offering you money because they see it helps their interests to do so. That's why it's a negotiation, they give us something we want (money) in exchange for something they want (attracting trainers and new hires to quench the pilot supply issues).

[sarg]

And this is why I'm thinking of voting "no" until they offer us something that actually adresses the issue of pilot retention and career progression, such as offering years of service transfer to mainline.

You're ignoring the facts separate companies separate MECs. There's no PTA, so unless Encore is willing to pick up the pay difference forever, the only other way for YOS would be to have that embedded in WJA CA2 and that is unlikely as it sets a bad precedent.

[olivierw]

I'm not ignoring that getting some kind of YOS transfer is complex. I'm saying that it's what we deserve and offering us a pay bump that barely matches inflation over the last 2 years isn't addressing the root problem of this company.

None of us came to Encore because we wanted quick cash. We came here knowing the money wasn't great but we looked at the long term gains like the one list/PTA. These long-term gains for our careers are looking less and less certain.

If a slight wage increase and 850$/month is going to be the only real incentive to stay here, with no certainty over the PTA, no certainty over flow, no certainty over seniority at mainline, and the guarantee to start at Year 1 and no vacation at mainline; then I believe it'll take a lot more money to make this worth our while.

Because right now I'm better off flying a king air in the bush for more money than what's offered in the MOA, and I still have a better shot at going to mainline and build YOS earlier than if I stayed at Encore.

So no, I'm not ignoring that YOS is unlikely. I'm just stating that YOS is what we want, and if we aren't gonna get it the money needs to be quite a bit better than what we got offered because under the current terms of the MOA the company will have a much easier time attracting and training pilots, and we'll lose our bargaining power for next Collective Agreement negotiations.

[skyhighh]

The company is asking for nothing (that I know of) in return whereas the AC MOA had multiple requests attached to it including one that literally would have given away all bargaining leverage to the pilots. This MOA presented to the Encore pilots is free cash. What would they give up by saying yes?

Nothing is free. This is business. The company isn't offering you money because they want to make you happy, or because of the WestJet spirit.

They're offering you money because they see it helps their interests to do so. That's why it's a negotiation, they give us something we want (money) in exchange for something they want (attracting trainers and new hires to quench the pilot supply issues).

With all due respect, I have been in this industry and with the WestJet group long enough to know that. The company is doing it because they think that this MOA will change the way things are going at WEN. Do you REALLY and HONESTLY believe that this MOA will fix their problem? The only people that will benefit from voting YES are the pilots. NO it will not fix their pilot shortage, NO it will not fix their retention issue and NO it will not permit them to hire more qualified pilots. WEN main hiring tool died when the One list got taken away. Now there is no reason for people to go there unless they have very little experience. WEN will always find FOs but they are struggling to find Captains and low time FO can’t go captain fast enough to fill the seat of the ones leaving. Getting PICUS is a nightmare right now as almost all captains are too junior for it. So how will WEN fix their captain issue? Why would anyone with experience go to WEN when they can literally go anywhere else including mainline? If the company really wanted to fix things they would have given the YOS already.

Here is the problem I have with the MOA:

• The MOA is heavily targeted at incentivizing the training department. Most of the money goes to trainers. The company made it clear we didn't have a deal unless they could heavily incentivize training. This means they'll be able to attract more and a better quality of trainers.

• The MOA incentivizes the first and second year FO more significantly than other pilots. This means they'll be able to attract more pilots.

• This MOA makes Encore ever so slightly more attractive than other regionals. This once again means they'll be able to attract more pilots.

Conclusion: we don't retain anyone on those wages. But we do attract them. If we can attract more pilots, this will ease the pressure on management as it will partly ease their pilot problem (keep in mind Encore isn't in the business of keeping pilots. Encore is business of hiring, training, and losing pilots). This will inevitably erode our bargaining power.


And this is why I'm thinking of voting "no" until they offer us something that actually adresses the issue of pilot retention and career progression, such as offering years of service transfer to mainline.

*Repeat of what was said on the other page: « Afraid that a lot of great pilots join the training department? What great pilots? From where? Are you talking about all the captains that are leaving right left and center? You think a little pay bump will keep them at Encore? That would be ludicrous.

Up the wages just enough to make Encore attractive? How? Everyone offer more than Encore. As was mentioned before you can make more with better work condition on a King Air. This will not solve any crewing problem or pilot shortage. This will NOT solve pilot retention and hire, train, lose is not sustainable. Pilots are being hired with less and less experience and the captains or experienced FOs are leaving extremely fast.
Vote YES, and if it’s not enough (and it won’t be), wait for the company to come back with MOA #2 or start the negotiations on a strong foot and an already higher wage. You’re just saying yes to a pay bump, thinking that this minor increase could potentially save the company and take away the pilot shortage negotiation advantage is plain ignorance. My 2 cents.« 

**End of duplicate**

[olivierw]

I don't know if the MOA will fix their problem. But the company seems to think it will help them. I just don't want to be too quick to dismiss what the company believes to be an incentive for pilots to work here.

Will it be enough? That's hard to know considering we don't actually know what the company wants to do. But we do know from previous JA all pilot calls that they don't intend to keep Encore flying at the same capacity as it was pre-covid. How many tails exactly are we keeping, that I don't know.

So if they can increase attraction and training even just a little and their plan is to downsize the operation, do they still have a pilot shortage?

WEN will always find FOs but they are struggling to find Captains and low time FO can’t go captain fast enough to fill the seat of the ones leaving.

That's true. But where is the real need? Do we need more captains or do we need FOs? Right now I'm about to operate Capt/Capt because we don't have enough FOs.

*Repeat of what was said on the other page: « Afraid that a lot of great pilots join the training department? What great pilots? From where? Are you talking about all the captains that are leaving right left and center? You think a little pay bump will keep them at Encore? That would be ludicrous.

I don't know anything for sure. No one does; this is all speculation on your end just like on my end. But how about commuters? We have a good percentage of our pilot group who commutes. Commuters are reluctant to do training because of the added costs of hotels. Keep in mind that the company put a lot of pressure on having that extra incentive for trainers.

I'm not dead set on anything. I can see this MOA being the first step to raising the bar across all the regionals in Canada as well. But I don't want to underestimate Westjet's executives. They have a whole team of analysts to help them determine what the market is dictating and they think it's enough, so why are we so quick to say it isn't?

[JBI]

I no longer have a vote on this. But, as an outside observer with a lot of previous inside knowledge:

It seems to me that the risk in voting No is that the Company doesn't come back to the table to try and offer something better. Considering how stubborn they've been about Swoop, the ACM, retention BEFORE they lost like 100 pilots to AC in 5 months and just about everything else, I can very much see them waiting 10 months and just talking about retention during bargaining for CA2. I could be wrong, but, gotta remember that it took 10 months for them to sit down with ALPA after the first potential retention proposal was declined by the MEC.

The risk in voting YES is that the increases actually work and keep people at Encore. While I could see it maybe making a few people less inclined to leave for a lateral move, it's not going to stop the hemorrhaging of pilots to AC. No Encore Captain is going to pass up a job at AC for an additional $1300 a month before tax if they already wanted to go. And arguably, this also applies to pilots who are leaving for Flair/Lynx/Porter etc. For experienced Q400 Captains, all these other options offer relatively quick upgrade on 100+ seat jets and a substantial pay increase. I'd take the position that if someone was going to leave before, they're still going to leave. But, at least you're getting paid a little more until you leave!

Don't get me wrong, as other posters and the union have said, it does not address the key concerns of the Encore pilots. It does not do anything for solid and stable career progression.

When you look at the US, today we all see massive salaries and bonuses for Regional Jet Captains. But it took years, well before COVID, of small increases like the one proposed by Encore before US Regionals got to the point of ludicrous money. First it was small signing bonuses, then it was larger bonuses and upgrade bonuses, then it was better pay and better commuting options, then it was flow, then it was larger retention bonuses, then it was huge retention bonuses.

Lots of reasons to vote yes or no for sure. But I will disagree with pilots who say that accepting the MOA reduces Encore's negotiating Capital. If anything, based on the assumption that the MOA does not offer enough to actually keep people at Encore, it puts the pilots in a better position for CA2 negotiations. When the Company tries to offer the same thing in this MOA for wages, the union can simply say "You've already offered it, and it hasn't worked for keeping people here. If you want to keep people here, you need to address career advancement."

[averageatbest]

The risk in voting YES is that the increases actually work and keep people at Encore.

The risk of voting yes to an MOA is that it might have the effect of solving the issue it's intended to solve.

[5degrees]

The risk in voting YES is that the increases actually work and keep people at Encore.

The risk of voting yes to an MOA is that it might have the effect of solving the issue it's intended to solve.

They would have to pay a lot more than what they're currently offering to keep people at encore. The money aspect isn't everything, the working environment is brutal.

[bobcaygeon]

What's the downside? Your brothers at Mainline really have control on their seniority list vs the Company as the Company just manages it and ALPA reviews it to make sure it is correct. Take the pay now and ask for more in 12 months.

If the pay doesn't slow attrition then the Company will know they have to step up even more. Removal all doubt now.

[Kzanol]

A senior WJ pilot once told me you always vote no to the first offer. Its almost an SOP at this point. They will always come back with something better and you can decide on the 2nd one whether it's worth it or not. No point in wasting your energy right now.

[averageatbest]

A senior WJ pilot once told me you always vote no to the first offer. Its almost an SOP at this point. They will always come back with something better and you can decide on the 2nd one whether it's worth it or not. No point in wasting your energy right now.

That works when the company is legally required to come back to the table.

This MOA is not their first offer, nor are they obliged to return to the table.

[cdnavater]

A senior WJ pilot once told me you always vote no to the first offer. Its almost an SOP at this point. They will always come back with something better and you can decide on the 2nd one whether it's worth it or not. No point in wasting your energy right now.

Honestly don’t get it, there are no concessions here, why in the world would you turn down a raise for nothing.
Is there something in it that hurts you, ie will attract more pilots hurting your bargaining power down the road, I don’t see it with no chance of flow to mainline, I would think qualified candidates would still choose Jazz over Encore and anything else over both, just my humble opinion!