MOA

[Tolip]

[/quote][/quote][/quote]
Tolip,
I can be as militant as the next guy, more so at times. Nothing would give me more pleasure than sticking to any airline management, I loath those people. They get rich by picking our pockets and sleep very soundly after doing it, phycho’s.
That being said, do not underestimate how stubborn they can be, especially in the WJ group, they will burn it to the ground before giving in to stubborn pilots.
Most of the flying you do was done by mainline before and could be done again, also I’m not sure if you have any scope protection for someone else doing your current flying. If they just simply let pilots quit and reduce the flying to a point where there’s only a skeleton crew left, there’s no protection guaranteeing you could follow that work or not that it would matter at that point.
Turning down a raise, hoping for a bigger raise is a pretty bold bluff that may not pan out for you. Maybe it will but ask any pre 2010 Jazz pilot how that worked out for us, still trying to get back up from that.
This is a raise with no strings attached and may not have the effect they are hoping for and will be back to the table if it doesn’t but I wouldn’t bank on plan B being more money, it could be a worse outcome.
[/quote]


With the eastern base closing, encore doesnt really go into large international routes anymore. We may start off in one but then we operate into small\medium airports, tbay, Brandon, grand prairie, fmak, kelowna, penticton kamloops, nanaimo, etc etc. These are high yield routes.. when the Q flys them.But the 737, could not do a better or more profitable job flying these routes. So no, I dont believe mainline could ( or would even want to rry) taking these routes back. With the rates we charge pax to fly on the Q, it is an extremely profitable aircraft to fly. And with the WJ group's plan to "retake" the west, it is an absolutely pivotal piece of that puzzle for connectivity and frequency into these smaller and medium airports. Aswell, it is Westjets answer to jazz. Encore isnt a throw away or unimportant part of WJ, it is critical. Tbe fact is that the company came to us with this deal (that tells you everything you need to know right there). I do believe it is a bold move to vote no. But I believe if we do it, if wj mainline does, jazz, and AC do it. If we all stick together, then I absolutely believe that the Canadian aviation sector can be vastly improved. And it's not just about wages. It's about so many things.and this isnt 2010.. its 2023... there hasnt been a wage increase for any regional airline in that 13 years... jazz, and encore are having huge training and staffing issues. Unable to flow, unhealthy culture, loss of huge hiring incentives.. all the while their is a very obvious experienced pilot wanting to go to the airlines shortage. The ball is in our court, and if we dont see that, and waste a yes vote. We are loosing a huge opportunity

[averageatbest]

With the eastern base closing, encore doesnt really go into large international routes anymore. We may start off in one but then we operate into small\medium airports, tbay, Brandon, grand prairie, fmak, kelowna, penticton kamloops, nanaimo, etc etc. These are high yield routes.. when the Q flys them.But the 737, could not do a better or more profitable job flying these routes. So no, I dont believe mainline could ( or would even want to rry) taking these routes back. With the rates we charge pax to fly on the Q, it is an extremely profitable aircraft to fly. And with the WJ group's plan to "retake" the west, it is an absolutely pivotal piece of that puzzle for connectivity and frequency into these smaller and medium airports. Aswell, it is Westjets answer to jazz. Encore isnt a throw away or unimportant part of WJ, it is critical. Tbe fact is that the company came to us with this deal (that tells you everything you need to know right there). I do believe it is a bold move to vote no. But I believe if we do it, if wj mainline does, jazz, and AC do it. If we all stick together, then I absolutely believe that the Canadian aviation sector can be vastly improved. And it's not just about wages. It's about so many things.and this isnt 2010.. its 2023... there hasnt been a wage increase for any regional airline in that 13 years... jazz, and encore are having huge training and staffing issues. Unable to flow, unhealthy culture, loss of huge hiring incentives.. all the while their is a very obvious experienced pilot wanting to go to the airlines shortage. The ball is in our court, and if we dont see that, and waste a yes vote. We are loosing a huge opportunity

Your replies are like watching someone you love and respect try to hit a nail on the head and miss over and over again.

The only thing more annoying than your misreading of the situation is your inability to quote properly.

You vote your way... that is your right as a WEN ALPA dues paying member. I hope you find clear skies and strong tailwinds.

[Tolip]

With the eastern base closing, encore doesnt really go into large international routes anymore. We may start off in one but then we operate into small\medium airports, tbay, Brandon, grand prairie, fmak, kelowna, penticton kamloops, nanaimo, etc etc. These are high yield routes.. when the Q flys them.But the 737, could not do a better or more profitable job flying these routes. So no, I dont believe mainline could ( or would even want to rry) taking these routes back. With the rates we charge pax to fly on the Q, it is an extremely profitable aircraft to fly. And with the WJ group's plan to "retake" the west, it is an absolutely pivotal piece of that puzzle for connectivity and frequency into these smaller and medium airports. Aswell, it is Westjets answer to jazz. Encore isnt a throw away or unimportant part of WJ, it is critical. Tbe fact is that the company came to us with this deal (that tells you everything you need to know right there). I do believe it is a bold move to vote no. But I believe if we do it, if wj mainline does, jazz, and AC do it. If we all stick together, then I absolutely believe that the Canadian aviation sector can be vastly improved. And it's not just about wages. It's about so many things.and this isnt 2010.. its 2023... there hasnt been a wage increase for any regional airline in that 13 years... jazz, and encore are having huge training and staffing issues. Unable to flow, unhealthy culture, loss of huge hiring incentives.. all the while their is a very obvious experienced pilot wanting to go to the airlines shortage. The ball is in our court, and if we dont see that, and waste a yes vote. We are loosing a huge opportunity

Your replies are like watching someone you love and respect try to hit a nail on the head and miss over and over again.

The only thing more annoying than your misreading of the situation is your inability to quote properly.

You vote your way... that is your right as a WEN ALPA dues paying member. I hope you find clear skies and strong tailwinds.

I do not understand the qoute function AT ALL, why is there not a avcanada instruction manuel. You seem to like to just critically judge from a distance, without adding a single shred of information, or adding a single origional thought. Your decision process seems to have stopped at its "free mony" with no costs and we can just negotiate other details later down the road. I commend you for your simplicity.

I have been alittle harse in my comments above (it is the tone I default too on avcanada). However my points and opinions are very very valid. Mainly, to recap my point is that we are a pivotal part of WJ, we are in a STRONG negotiating position at THIS moment, and that wasting a yes vote on a small improvement, but is not remotely what any of us wants puts our position in jeopardy... you just want free money now, your not thinking down the line. People are telling you not to worry, and you are just trusting that 100%

[skyhighh]

With the eastern base closing, encore doesnt really go into large international routes anymore. We may start off in one but then we operate into small\medium airports, tbay, Brandon, grand prairie, fmak, kelowna, penticton kamloops, nanaimo, etc etc. These are high yield routes.. when the Q flys them.But the 737, could not do a better or more profitable job flying these routes. So no, I dont believe mainline could ( or would even want to rry) taking these routes back. With the rates we charge pax to fly on the Q, it is an extremely profitable aircraft to fly. And with the WJ group's plan to "retake" the west, it is an absolutely pivotal piece of that puzzle for connectivity and frequency into these smaller and medium airports. Aswell, it is Westjets answer to jazz. Encore isnt a throw away or unimportant part of WJ, it is critical. Tbe fact is that the company came to us with this deal (that tells you everything you need to know right there). I do believe it is a bold move to vote no. But I believe if we do it, if wj mainline does, jazz, and AC do it. If we all stick together, then I absolutely believe that the Canadian aviation sector can be vastly improved. And it's not just about wages. It's about so many things.and this isnt 2010.. its 2023... there hasnt been a wage increase for any regional airline in that 13 years... jazz, and encore are having huge training and staffing issues. Unable to flow, unhealthy culture, loss of huge hiring incentives.. all the while their is a very obvious experienced pilot wanting to go to the airlines shortage. The ball is in our court, and if we dont see that, and waste a yes vote. We are loosing a huge opportunity

Your replies are like watching someone you love and respect try to hit a nail on the head and miss over and over again.

The only thing more annoying than your misreading of the situation is your inability to quote properly.

You vote your way... that is your right as a WEN ALPA dues paying member. I hope you find clear skies and strong tailwinds.

I do not understand the qoute function AT ALL, why is there not a avcanada instruction manuel. You seem to like to just critically judge from a distance, without adding a single shred of information, or adding a single origional thought. Your decision process seems to have stopped at its "free mony" with no costs and we can just negotiate other details later down the road. I commend you for your simplicity.

I have been alittle harse in my comments above (it is the tone I default too on avcanada). However my points and opinions are very very valid. Mainly, to recap my point is that we are a pivotal part of WJ, we are in a STRONG negotiating position at THIS moment, and that wasting a yes vote on a small improvement, but is not remotely what any of us wants puts our position in jeopardy... you just want free money now, your not thinking down the line. People are telling you not to worry, and you are just trusting that 100%

Quoting is easy… You click on the ‘’  and then write your answer below the « [/quote] ». If you’re quoting multiple sentences from different people it gets a bit confusing. Unfortunately it helps if you have a little knowledge of coding. *** Because te Forum doesn’t let me do i… I’ll have to replace these [] with these { } so everytime I use {xxxx} imagine I do [xxxx](((
But it seems you are deleting too much… A quote opens with something like:

- « {quote=Tolip post_id=1231392 time=1672443645 user_id=67495} » and ends with « {/quote} »

The first part is important because it tells the forum that you are quoting from that part and then the [/quote] tells it to end the quote. In programming, often, the « /«  means ending. Anyway, I hope this helps.

As for the rest, I believe you’re mistaken by the importance of Encore. Encore was created in order to feed the 787 and 767… it was required in order to fill up the big planes to go somewhere else. The same way Jazz is the feeder of Air Canada. Now that WestJet isn’t as interested in going international as they used to be, Encore doesn’t matter as much. Yes, it’s cool to go cheaply in some places but you don’t need a ton of pilots for that and you can always lower the experience of these pilots. Heck, when I first started at Encore you needed a minimum of 3000 hours, your ATPL and extensive captain experience. Now the requirement is to be able to breath and say yes to the job offer. Even pre-Covid we were hiring instructors straight from flight school, some never flew a twin operationally and the training department was working hard to create a training program in order to lower the minimum to 250. So… yeah… If they want pilots, they will get some. This extra cash isn’t going to bring more pilots to the door as they currently are.

Now from what you’re saying, you’re a captain at Encore… Do you think that the little bit of money you would gain in the MOA would be enough to keep you there? If the answer is NO, Do you honestly think that pilots will stay longer for a few extra hundred bucks when the competition calls them? Realistically speaking? If the answer is an honest YES… by all mean, vote NO. But if you think that it’s not enough to retain pilots… well… vote YES, take the cash and leave like everyone else. If Westjet cares one bit about Encore, they will come back with MOA #2 after seeing that people keep leaving… If they don’t care about Encore… well… you have your answer and still make more cash than you make right now.

I spent many years as a « Westjetter » and they will go above and beyond to teach pilots a lesson. Look back at the whole culture of the company and what it is now. There is no « We succeed because we care » anymore… They have screwed the pilots (And FAs for that matters) for a very long time and this is the reason why people are leaving. It’s not going to change because of a few extra $$$… It is definitely not enough and your fear of this MOA taking away your leverage is «in my opinion » inaccurate. I do believe it will empower you actually as you’ll start negotiations from a higher salary + 1 year experience of pilots leaving because it’s not enough.

To each their own though, from what you’re saying you’ve been educating yourself on the matter so good on you for that and this is why there is a vote. So that each and everyone can vote based on their opinion either we agree or not.

Cheers.

[Tolip]

Well I took a screen shot of your notes, I'll store that away for a time I am feeling creative Haha. Deffinitly alot more to it then I thought, Avcanada doesnt make it easy!

I like your ideas man I agree with alot of it, and the parts that I dont agree with I deffinotly still see where your comming from. I just fundamentally have a different prospective of encores importance to WJ. It may have drifted from its intended purpose. But that doesnt mean it's useless, I mean Viagra was made for high blood pressure, but you can bet your butt they found a new profitable use for it. I digress. But my point being that, if WJ is going to lean heavy into the hub and spoke system. And their mission is to "connect the west" aswell as offer lower costs AND increase frequency. I just do not see that happening without encore, the Q does a cheep and highly profitable job flying routes, feeding the 737s aswell as the 787s. And last I checked they are still advertising new routes. The 787s arnt dead. We have more now then ever in the past, so why would the Q not be needed? WJ is a business, and the Q makes bank for the company, the planes are baught and encore is deeply inbedded into WJ. Encore is not going anywhere. It's possible it separates in a fashion similar to jazz. But I dont see it, encore is just not quite large enough.

As for your note about them being able to find more pilots, by higjering lower time guys. I agree, that could totally happen. But my point is that it simply isnt happening, encore has been totally nuts since 2018 staffing wise, and it's worse now then ever b4. So while I agree with you, I also just am not witnessing anything being fixed. For years and years. So perhaps, not that easy to solve?

As for the question you proposed about weather or not I believe the money will fix company poblems.. I honidtly cannot say yes or no. I dont believe anyone can. So in that situation I belive the most conservative approach with regards to up comming contract negotiations should be taken. And I think tbe most conservative route is a no vote. I only want to use a yes vote to something that is overwhelmingly worth it. And I believe either now or in a year we could have that momentum to achieve something better. For the long term.

However, times are tight. Although I really hope this gets voted down. I am a realist and I know too many people are hurting too badly to turn down a raise right now.. so I'm sure this will be ratified. The company has kept us too desperate for too long, the pilots need this too badly. Its unfortunate that is even has to come to this st all. If the company were too offer 50% less tben what they did. I still believe the pilots would ratify it. So I commend our union for doing as well as it did. The first meaningful wage increase in encores history

[averageatbest]

I do not understand the qoute function AT ALL, why is there not a avcanada instruction manuel. You seem to like to just critically judge from a distance, without adding a single shred of information, or adding a single origional thought. Your decision process seems to have stopped at its "free mony" with no costs and we can just negotiate other details later down the road. I commend you for your simplicity.

I have been alittle harse in my comments above (it is the tone I default too on avcanada). However my points and opinions are very very valid. Mainly, to recap my point is that we are a pivotal part of WJ, we are in a STRONG negotiating position at THIS moment, and that wasting a yes vote on a small improvement, but is not remotely what any of us wants puts our position in jeopardy... you just want free money now, your not thinking down the line. People are telling you not to worry, and you are just trusting that 100%

I was repeating myself and nobody cares to hear me repeat myself, so I resorted to trolling.

I commend your self aware reply... not many people have the ability to do that.

[sarg]

I like your ideas man I agree with alot of it, and the parts that I dont agree with I deffinotly still see where your comming from. I just fundamentally have a different prospective of encores importance to WJ. It may have drifted from its intended purpose. But that doesnt mean it's useless, I mean Viagra was made for high blood pressure, but you can bet your butt they found a new profitable use for it. I digress. But my point being that, if WJ is going to lean heavy into the hub and spoke system. And their mission is to "connect the west" aswell as offer lower costs AND increase frequency. I just do not see that happening without encore, the Q does a cheep and highly profitable job flying routes, feeding the 737s aswell as the 787s. And last I checked they are still advertising new routes. The 787s arnt dead. We have more now then ever in the past, so why would the Q not be needed? WJ is a business, and the Q makes bank for the company, the planes are baught and encore is deeply inbedded into WJ. Encore is not going anywhere. It's possible it separates in a fashion similar to jazz. But I dont see it, encore is just not quite large enough.

Encore doesn't need to be large, they're shutting down Eastern operations. It's going to be concentrated in Western Canada, do we know anyone that has a Western Canadian operation that seems to be able to attract pilots? They're paying Saab Captains more than we're paying Q Captains.

Easy solution, CPA Encore routes, lease the tails to the CPA operator sell excess. You make a smaller profit from ticket sales and AC leases but all problems of attraction and retention belong to someone else, you could even work a fixed number BOTL flow to help attraction. It takes alot of wages of the book when you go public in the future.

CMA is always a backup.

One of these things is different, one of these things doesn't look like the others. Transcontinental/International Jet operation X 2(3), regional turboprop Operation.

[hithere]

When will the vote results be known?

[averageatbest]

When will the vote results be known?

Late January 10th, maybe early on the 11th.

[RobertChow]

So realistically, what can a new FO bring home with the new MOA ?

Around 57k/year ?

[Dronepiper]

Yup around 57k for a first year Q400 FO (Assuming it passes).

What’s sad, and funny at the same time, is that’s more money than what a 1st year swoop FO makes on the 737. They only makes $54k

[Canadaflyer46]

Yup around 57k for a first year Q400 FO (Assuming it passes).

What’s sad, and funny at the same time, is that’s more money than what a 1st year swoop FO makes on the 737. They only makes $54k

But I suppose at least they get a spot on the Pilot Seniority List and can bid to mainline after 2 years.
Encore mgmt is yet to address the PTA issue as far as I’m aware. Not gonna be many people willing to go there now. Whatever the pay.

[averageatbest]

Yup around 57k for a first year Q400 FO (Assuming it passes).

What’s sad, and funny at the same time, is that’s more money than what a 1st year swoop FO makes on the 737. They only makes $54k

It's more than a first year 777 FO and RP make at AC.

[Canadaflyer46]

Yup around 57k for a first year Q400 FO (Assuming it passes).

What’s sad, and funny at the same time, is that’s more money than what a 1st year swoop FO makes on the 737. They only makes $54k

It's more than a first year 777 FO and RP make at AC.

Canada must be the only country in the world that has Year 1 FOs on a widebody making less than the senior FAs in the back.

[olivierw]

Results are in 82% of eligible pilots voted.

Of those 82% who voted, 82% voted in favour.

[flyinhigh]

Results are in 82% of eligible pilots voted.

Of those 82% who voted, 82% voted in favour.

Better results than the Flair deal. What's the new pay for all pilot's, anyone have a table?

[averageatbest]

Better results than the Flair deal. What's the new pay for all pilot's, anyone have a table?

[khedrei]

Misunderstood. Nevermind.

[kiaszceski]

I heard Encore pilots have airport standby now.
Was this negotiated with this MOA?

[averageatbest]

I heard Encore pilots have airport standby now.
Was this negotiated with this MOA?

There is no airport standby for pilots at Encore.

The only thing that is happening is that the company is getting creative outside the bounds of the contract and all agreements. The things that all pilots at Encore need to know are:

• You cannot have two duty periods in the same day (company/union agreement)
• You cannot have reserve after duty (CARs)
• You are required to be able to show up at your assigned base within two hours while on reserve (CBA)
• You are required to refuse any duty that violates the CARs (CARs)

If a YYZ pilot agrees to deadhead and hold reserve outside of YYZ, once you get off your deadhead, you must either already be assigned something within the 4 hour maximum duty extension (CBA) or be released and provided with a hotel. Holding reserve after deadheading is a violation of the CARs.

The company CANNOT force you to hold reserve anywhere other than your assigned base. You can be told to hold displacement reserve out of base, but must be assigned and actively on a pairing to be displaced off of.