So much for growth

[SPR]

That is to say that while they are parked and put into Flair's control for a while, they never did go to a base and perform any revenue flights for the company.

Why would Flair accept control of aircraft that it was never meant to operate? Was Flair forced to accept control of the aircraft by the lessors, and if so what does that imply about whether Flair is controlled-in-fact by foreign entities? Why would they go through the effort and expense of registering those aircraft? Why were they painted in Flair's livery and configured with their seating arrangement?

[MKFlair]

Look at the history of posts on this topic. Boeing accelerated delivery to 777 and Flair did not need or want those aircraft in Oct 2022 as opposed to late spring 2023. It was a timing issue. So no 777 control issues as, if they had control, they would have forced Flair to take those aircraft. Instead Flair refused as it did not work our program.

[SPR]

Flair reminds me of a pyramid scheme that needs a constant supply of new people joining in order to prop up the ones who are already there, and tbaylx is constantly hassling everyone to join his downline. All the FOs who want upgrades need new hires to replace them, and everyone who wants to get off reserve needs new hires under them. Just like an MLM, everyone promises that everything will be great for everyone involved, and everyone will get rich together, but just like an MLM the first ones in will get all the benefits, and the ones who join just before everything grinds to a halt will lose majorly.

[SPR]

Look at the history of posts on this topic. Boeing accelerated delivery to 777 and Flair did not need or want those aircraft in Oct 2022 as opposed to late spring 2023. It was a timing issue. So no 777 control issues as, if they had control, they would have forced Flair to take those aircraft. Instead Flair refused as it did not work our program.

And yet Flair had to register them. How is that not indicative of 777 having undue influence over Flair? I'm pretty sure WestJet has never been forced to register any ALC aircraft that it wasn't ever going to operate.

[tbaylx]

Flair reminds me of a pyramid scheme that needs a constant supply of new people joining in order to prop up the ones who are already there, and tbaylx is constantly hassling everyone to join his downline. All the FOs who want upgrades need new hires to replace them, and everyone who wants to get off reserve needs new hires under them. Just like an MLM, everyone promises that everything will be great for everyone involved, and everyone will get rich together, but just like an MLM the first ones in will get all the benefits, and the ones who join just before everything grinds to a halt will lose majorly.

That's how a rapidly expanding airline works. We take new airplanes, upgrade FO's to captains, hire new FO"s to replace the one we upgraded. Those that get in first get seniority, base of choice and rapid upgrades.

Those that wait get less seniority, the bases where there are openings and longer waits to upgrade.

It doesn't seem very complicated. Air Canada is currently doing the same thing. If you're at the tail end of the hiring boom you're stuck on the bottom of a long list on reserve, and first to get laid off. Always pays to be in early.

[co-joe]

You guys have to stop feeding the WestJet trolls. Thinmargins joined a week ago, and all of his posts are in this one thread just hoping to stir up whatever agenda he feels like stroking his ego with. Planes come and go, our fleet is expanding, our loads are good, our sales are solid, in fact, since his airline took the first step towards a strike, I'd say our loads have improved.

[Index]

You guys have to stop feeding the WestJet trolls. Thinmargins joined a week ago, and all of his posts are in this one thread just hoping to stir up whatever agenda he feels like stroking his ego with. Planes come and go, our fleet is expanding, our loads are good, our sales are solid, in fact, since his airline took the first step towards a strike, I'd say our loads have improved.

What do you mean planes come and go? What? Receiving and then getting rid of 6 aircraft in a period of 6 months does not make any sense, especially considering some of those aircraft were already painted in Flair's colours, and considering there are these claimed expansion plans.

None of it makes sense, and some of us are trying to make sense of it, but yet we keep getting dodgy answers. Like SPR said, some would like some clarity as it could make a huge difference in the decisions they make going forward with their career and more importantly, their life.

For what it's worth, what some of you claim are "trolls", by deflecting or simply not answering their questions, you're just feeding them more fuel for their fire at that point

I wish Flair all the success in the world, it helps everyone, as we all know competition is good and in theory should raise the bar across the industry, so best of luck to you all

[Arnie Pye]

That is to say that while they are parked and put into Flair's control for a while, they never did go to a base and perform any revenue flights for the company.

Why would Flair accept control of aircraft that it was never meant to operate? Was Flair forced to accept control of the aircraft by the lessors, and if so what does that imply about whether Flair is controlled-in-fact by foreign entities? Why would they go through the effort and expense of registering those aircraft? Why were they painted in Flair's livery and configured with their seating arrangement?

That's above my pay grade. I'll have to accept tbaylx's answer.

We have aircraft in our operational fleet because other airlines couldn't accept them on the timeline that Boeing dictated. Doesn't seem like a big conspiracy theory that we might also have a couple of spares out there seeking a new home. Who's to say that Flair didn't make money off of being a temporary holding company for 6 airplanes?

[ThinMargins]

I still don't' see any proof of defaults or anything that (even remotely) proves anything really.

I posted a screenshot from the Civil Aircraft Register showing eight aircraft have left the fleet in the last two months. Is that not proof of "anything"? Are you saying you don't believe that the screen shot is real? Because you can go verify yourself. Or are you implying that the Register can't be trusted and is, as you put it earlier, "fake news"? What part of eight aircraft being exported isn't true?

You posted a screenshot claiming it was proof of Flair defaulting on its debts. While it is proof of said and other aircraft leaving the fleet, it doesn't even come close to being proof of Flair defaulting.

You demand Flair provides answers to their financial status, yet you see no need in providing evidence to your claim? You don't see a problem with any of this? If you're so concerned with pilots having current and factual information to make an informed career decision. Why don't you help them out and provide proof of Flair going bankrupt?

You are correct in saying that I didn’t share “proof”, but it is also correct that I never claimed I was sharing proof.

I am relaying what I am hearing from the leasing community. I went as far as giving a particular registration number and a lessor. If I am wrong, one of management’s reps here can easily refute it. But they won’t, because they can’t and because it’s true. It’s one phone call to finance.

People are being lied to. The point is to give early warning. By the time paperwork showing default becomes available, this debate will be moot. The alarm is sounded when the Titanic hits the iceberg, by the time the proof of sinking comes you’re already 50 feet below water.

[ThinMargins]

So is this Globe and Mail story false? Like when they wrote an article saying that Sunwing was for sale, which was strongly denied by Sunwing, but later proved to be true?

777 Partners has orders for up to 134 B737's with more coming, including the 737-8-200. They sell most of them to a variety of leasing companies who then lease them to Flair, Bonza, and other airlines. 777 Partners has sold most of the aircraft it has received and this is not a new development, nor will it affect Flair's growth plans. To suggest otherwise shows a lack of understanding on how Flair is managing its fleet expansion.

The article, which was only partially quoted by the OP, also states our 2023 fleet plans. The article is factual, however, the OP only partially quoted it and purposefully posted an alarmist topic in order to provide a half-story that was driven by his agenda.

"Discount carrier Flair Airlines has boosted its planned summer seat offerings and flights by more than 40 per cent over 2022. The Edmonton-based airline’s fleets consists of 19 Boeing 737s, capacity that falls short of the planned schedule, but will add leased planes in the months to come, said Stephen Jones, chief executive officer of Flair.

“Flair Airlines is regularly taking delivery of aircraft, and anticipate we’ll have 27 aircraft by the summer of 2023, at different bases across Canada,” he said.

This one is easily falsifiable.

This is from Boeing’s website. They show remaining aircraft by customer. They update it every month. I have filtered for Canada, you can see how many orders are left to be delivered for each carrier - nowhere close to 134. And this has to be split between Bonza and other adventures. And they are selling aircraft to other airlines too.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries

1727BE30-CE17-4E18-A2FD-91EBA215B31D.jpeg (499.58 KiB) Viewed 2895 times

tbyalx, I think you got the 134 number from here. https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2022-07-19 ... cient-Jets

The press release shows that 777 placed an order in 2022. But get this - the order doesn’t show up on Boeing’s website showing 2022 orders! Every other airline that has ordered shows up. Except 777. Why would Boeing cancel their order?

354D18FE-8425-45D5-91F9-EB1D650224D9.jpeg (1.03 MiB) Viewed 2895 times

Pilots are highly educated and sophisticated individuals. Hard to fool them. Anyone can click on the links above and validate for themselves.

[accountant]

Pilots are highly educated and sophisticated individuals. Hard to fool them. Anyone can click on the links above and validate for themselves.

Given how much grumbling you're all making over how pilots wages suck and you all have crappy contracts one could argue that you're not that educated and sophisticated.

[co-joe]

...

What do you mean planes come and go? What? Receiving and then getting rid of 6 aircraft in a period of 6 months does not make any sense, especially considering some of those aircraft were already painted in Flair's colours, and considering there are these claimed expansion plans.

It means exactly as it sounds, planes come and go to the fleet. They are leased assets, the owners of those assets move them wherever they want to and the lessors have no control over that, nor should they. 777 can paint planes whatever colour they want, they can fill runway 26 with type 4 green tails, it makes no difference to me, if they find a home for those planes before we do, cool, if we have the crews to put them on line...cool too.

None of it makes sense, and some of us are trying to make sense of it, but yet we keep getting dodgy answers. Like SPR said, some would like some clarity as it could make a huge difference in the decisions they make going forward with their career and more importantly, their life.

For what it's worth, what some of you claim are "trolls", by deflecting or simply not answering their questions, you're just feeding them more fuel for their fire at that point

I wish Flair all the success in the world, it helps everyone, as we all know competition is good and in theory should raise the bar across the industry, so best of luck to you all

In slang, a troll is a person who posts or makes inflammatory, insincere, digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages online (such as in social media, a newsgroup, a forum, a chat room, an online video game), or in real life, with the intent of provoking others into displaying emotional responses,[2] or manipulating others' perception. The behavior is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or purposefully causing confusion or harm to other people.[3]

Thinmargins joined Avcanada 4 days ago with the sole purpose of posting inflammatory lines of questioning just to get a rise out of us. It's a pretty classic trolling. Trolls only win when you feed them, there's nothing to see here.

[Index]

...

What do you mean planes come and go? What? Receiving and then getting rid of 6 aircraft in a period of 6 months does not make any sense, especially considering some of those aircraft were already painted in Flair's colours, and considering there are these claimed expansion plans.

It means exactly as it sounds, planes come and go to the fleet. They are leased assets, the owners of those assets move them wherever they want to and the lessors have no control over that, nor should they. 777 can paint planes whatever colour they want, they can fill runway 26 with type 4 green tails, it makes no difference to me, if they find a home for those planes before we do, cool, if we have the crews to put them on line...cool too.

None of it makes sense, and some of us are trying to make sense of it, but yet we keep getting dodgy answers. Like SPR said, some would like some clarity as it could make a huge difference in the decisions they make going forward with their career and more importantly, their life.

For what it's worth, what some of you claim are "trolls", by deflecting or simply not answering their questions, you're just feeding them more fuel for their fire at that point

I wish Flair all the success in the world, it helps everyone, as we all know competition is good and in theory should raise the bar across the industry, so best of luck to you all

In slang, a troll is a person who posts or makes inflammatory, insincere, digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages online (such as in social media, a newsgroup, a forum, a chat room, an online video game), or in real life, with the intent of provoking others into displaying emotional responses,[2] or manipulating others' perception. The behavior is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or purposefully causing confusion or harm to other people.[3]

Thinmargins joined Avcanada 4 days ago with the sole purpose of posting inflammatory lines of questioning just to get a rise out of us. It's a pretty classic trolling. Trolls only win when you feed them, there's nothing to see here.

Still seems a bit strange but I suppose what you and Arnie Pye said makes sense

While I don't agree with everything, especially the new contract as it could've been better, especially for FOs, at least it's trending in the right direction, so like I said, best of luck to you lot, i'm rooting for Flair's success

[ThinMargins]

...

What do you mean planes come and go? What? Receiving and then getting rid of 6 aircraft in a period of 6 months does not make any sense, especially considering some of those aircraft were already painted in Flair's colours, and considering there are these claimed expansion plans.

It means exactly as it sounds, planes come and go to the fleet. They are leased assets, the owners of those assets move them wherever they want to and the lessors have no control over that, nor should they. 777 can paint planes whatever colour they want, they can fill runway 26 with type 4 green tails, it makes no difference to me, if they find a home for those planes before we do, cool, if we have the crews to put them on line...cool too.

None of it makes sense, and some of us are trying to make sense of it, but yet we keep getting dodgy answers. Like SPR said, some would like some clarity as it could make a huge difference in the decisions they make going forward with their career and more importantly, their life.

For what it's worth, what some of you claim are "trolls", by deflecting or simply not answering their questions, you're just feeding them more fuel for their fire at that point

I wish Flair all the success in the world, it helps everyone, as we all know competition is good and in theory should raise the bar across the industry, so best of luck to you all

In slang, a troll is a person who posts or makes inflammatory, insincere, digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages online (such as in social media, a newsgroup, a forum, a chat room, an online video game), or in real life, with the intent of provoking others into displaying emotional responses,[2] or manipulating others' perception. The behavior is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or purposefully causing confusion or harm to other people.[3]

Thinmargins joined Avcanada 4 days ago with the sole purpose of posting inflammatory lines of questioning just to get a rise out of us. It's a pretty classic trolling. Trolls only win when you feed them, there's nothing to see here.

Still seems a bit strange but I suppose what you and Arnie Pye said makes sense

While I don't agree with everything, especially the new contract as it could've been better, especially for FOs, at least it's trending in the right direction, so like I said, best of luck to you lot, i'm rooting for Flair's success

Your instinct is right. You are more right than you think, because it’s more than a bit strange that 777’s 2022 order is no longer listed in the orders section of Boeing’s website. Every other order is listed. Every. Single. One.

The next thing they will say is that the Trolls hacked Boeing’s website. These people are preying on the credulity of hardworking pilots. They think pilots are gullible.

[TC.Enforcement]

It means exactly as it sounds, planes come and go to the fleet. They are leased assets, the owners of those assets move them wherever they want to and the lessors have no control over that, nor should they. 777 can paint planes whatever colour they want, they can fill runway 26 with type 4 green tails, it makes no difference to me, if they find a home for those planes before we do, cool, if we have the crews to put them on line...cool too.





Thinmargins joined Avcanada 4 days ago with the sole purpose of posting inflammatory lines of questioning just to get a rise out of us. It's a pretty classic trolling. Trolls only win when you feed them, there's nothing to see here.

Still seems a bit strange but I suppose what you and Arnie Pye said makes sense

While I don't agree with everything, especially the new contract as it could've been better, especially for FOs, at least it's trending in the right direction, so like I said, best of luck to you lot, i'm rooting for Flair's success

Your instinct is right. You are more right than you think, because it’s more than a bit strange that 777’s 2022 order is no longer listed in the orders section of Boeing’s website. Every other order is listed. Every. Single. One.

The next thing they will say is that the Trolls hacked Boeing’s website. These people are preying on the credulity of hardworking pilots. They think pilots are gullible.

Who’s they? Give specific names otherwise you sound like a conspiracy nut.

[averageatbest]

Flair has aircraft from different lessors. Why are you all focused on 777 partners?

[DanWEC]

Wasn't it part of the CTA's requirement that Flair can't maintain an exclusive relationship with 777 in regards to leasing, financing, and board occupancy?

Perhaps these tails going elsewhere and replaced with other lessors were part of that compliance.

[safetyfirst123]

[quote=DanWEC
Perhaps these tails going elsewhere and replaced with other lessors were part of that compliance.
[/quote]

Maybe, or perhaps the fact that the original leases from 777 Partners were at half the current market rate, and 777 will make far more money leasing Max's elsewhere than to have them operate at Flair for half the lease costs.

[ThinMargins]

Still seems a bit strange but I suppose what you and Arnie Pye said makes sense

While I don't agree with everything, especially the new contract as it could've been better, especially for FOs, at least it's trending in the right direction, so like I said, best of luck to you lot, i'm rooting for Flair's success

Your instinct is right. You are more right than you think, because it’s more than a bit strange that 777’s 2022 order is no longer listed in the orders section of Boeing’s website. Every other order is listed. Every. Single. One.

The next thing they will say is that the Trolls hacked Boeing’s website. These people are preying on the credulity of hardworking pilots. They think pilots are gullible.

Who’s they? Give specific names otherwise you sound like a conspiracy nut.

Calling me a conspiracy nut or troll may be cathartic. It is the wrong response though.

I’m the nut who is pointing out that 777’s latest order has been wiped clean from Boeing’s website. That’s a fact that anyone with an internet connection can verify. Perhaps focus on that over name calling.

[ThinMargins]

Flair has aircraft from different lessors. Why are you all focused on 777 partners?

777 ordered aircraft from Boeing at the depths of the pandemic. Got great pricing. Kudos to them for timing the purchase perfectly and for having the intestinal fortitude to buy when others were running for the hills.

777 matters because every single MAX lease Flair has, whether it’s from BOCA, Zephyrus or Airborne, all originated with 777.

777 is selling Flair branded aircraft from its Boeing order book to these independent third party lessors.

These lessors are willing to lease to a high risk credit such as Flair because they can acquire aircraft cheaply from 777. Their thinking is that even if Flair fails and doesn’t pay rent on time, they can recoup their losses because they were able to buy planes below market price.

777 is willing to sell planes below market price as long as they are being placed at Flair. They want to do this because they have loaned Flair more than $200 million (!) and want to avoid a bankruptcy which could vaporize their loan.

No third party leasing firm is willing to lease to Flair without the inducement of below market aircraft purchases. So, 777’s order book is essential to Flair’s growth and existence.

If Boeing cancels 777’s orders because they have defaulted, it is very bad news.