Vancouver Area IFR

[phillyfan]

Anyone have any opinions on where a Bush Rat like myself could get a Multi IFR done with a minimal amount of bullshit. I don't mind doing the training with low time guys but I don't want to be screwed outta my cash and I don't want to show up at the airport and hear about snags on the airplane.

[polythene_pam]

I normally recommend proifr in vancouver.

The owner is a stand up guy. He makes no bones about the fact that he's in a business and trying to make money, but hey, it's a tough industry and pro has done well in it.

They generally have their reputation because they have a good SYSTEM. Some places will say, "okay, hmm, let's do NDB approaches today", and the next day, "have we done vor holds yet?" 20 hours later, you've sort of covered enough to get by!

at pro, they have a set system that's well known and works.

If you want to cut it a little short, chat with the CP and the owner. If they're confident in you they may do something for you, but they won't sign you off if you're below their standards. A lot of guys come out of the bush with fansastic airmanship and skills, 7000 hours, and a lot of confidence, but then get upset when a punk with 500 hours is telling them they need another flight before being signed off for the exam! They're not trying to get you... They just have a reputation to uphold and don't want anybody flying IFR up there with subpar skills.

If the piece of paper is all you need, and you just want to rush through the rating and come out with doubious capabilities, that's understandable, but then pro's probably not for you.

[Kenny G]

I heard Pacific Flying Club wants more IFR students. They are done with the BCIT crowd and you would be able to book at any time. Their IFR instructors are very enthusiastic and would be able to give you great 1-on-1 training. Awesome environment for studying and training. Very professional club. I don’t have any experience with anyone else.

Good luck.... go and talk to all the schools before you choose.

[Cat Driver]

Philly, your best bet is try and find someone who flys IFR for a living and get him/her to teach you.

If you can't find a "working" experienced IFR pilot and an airplane then Pro is probably your best bet.

Just remember it is a game you will be playing called learn the basics and it is a very expensive game so use your time well.

Cat

[untucked]

Your best bet is definetly ProIFR (now the IFR part of Professional Flight Center). The system they use to train you will give you a good grounding in IFR flying. But not only that, it will get you through the ride. By now Johnny will have gotten over the fact that the Nucks have missed the playoffs and will be back to his regular high energy self. If on your first time to the school you get the impression that you're being sold a car, don't give it too much thought. That's just the way they do business. Your only real concern with them at this time of year is how many of their senior instructors have recently left for turbine jobs. It might be a question worth asking.

The other peice of advise I can offer is if you are going to do the Multi-IFR drop everything else and just get it done. Start by reading over the RAC section of the AIM before you even drop a dime. Then once you get going, just plow right on through. It is a very expensive rating and you'll save yourself money in the long run.

Oh ya, and try to enjoy yourself.

[polythene_pam]

Hints to save money on the IFR rating:

-Read the IFR part of RAC.

-Re-read it.

-take the time to visualise every sim and flight from start to finish before hand.

-practice some of your basics on a free flight sim if you can. (skills like tracking inbound/outbound on an ndb or rsi; intercepting and following a glidepath; etc.)

-MORE SIMS = FEWER FLIGHTS!!! Don't be in a rush to hop into the aircraft, and don't be afraid to REQUEST an extra sim or two before a flight.

-2 sims a day and 1 -2 flights a day... that way you'll have time to go through each sim and flight on the day of before you do it, and you'll blast through it quickly, forgetting little.

-Learn the monkey run. Know it. love it. It's the flight test you'll do if you go to pro. Their whole course is pretty much based around it. I don't remember exactly what it is, but basically it's czbb - cyxx, straight in ils approach to circling, touch and go, hold at huh, full procedure ndb approach, go around, track the loc backcourse outbound, and back to yvr - czbb.... If you can learn to do that, you'll get the license with as little bs as possible.

[Pugster]

it's czbb - cyxx, straight in ils approach to circling, touch and go, hold at huh, full procedure ndb approach, go around, track the loc backcourse outbound, and back to yvr - czbb.... If you can learn to do that, you'll get the license with as little bs as possible.

Hahaha that's exactly the ride I did in 2001 when I did my initial in ZBB...sounds like Johnny is still using the same one!

Great advice above, BTW.

[wallypilot]

Check out CFC (Canadian Flight Centre) as well. They also have a good crew over there right now. Not as big as Pro, but definitely just as good.

[Joe1981]

You can't go wrong with PFC or CFC.

[goldeneagle]

Anyone have any opinions on where a Bush Rat like myself could get a Multi IFR done with a minimal amount of bullshit. I don't mind doing the training with low time guys but I don't want to be screwed outta my cash and I don't want to show up at the airport and hear about snags on the airplane.

The biggest trick to saving money, use simulators, spend lots and lots of time on simulators. Again, if it's just a renewal, and you dont need the full 40 hours or whatever it is today, you can save a BUNDLE by being smart about it. Invest 40 bucks in a copy of flitesim for your computer, and another 50 bucks for a good little console. Now tee up with another keener at the school, and go simming on your own simulator. Fly the approaches at the airports you will be training at, get the procedures down pat before you even spend a dime at the school. Turn the turbulence up, set the wx to 100 and 1/4, then fly the hell outa the pc. If you dont have a pc, buy one, cheap pc costs about 500 bucks, the price of 2 airplane rides during an ifr course. it's gonna save you more than 2 airplane rides.

When you've got everything down pat procedure wise in your own pc simulator, only then head off and drive the school sim. Do that for a few hours. When the instructor says you are ready for the airplane, remember, that instructor wants to build multi time. Go back to the sim again. this ofc assumes you already have the multi, so, spending time in the airplane taking an instructor for airplane rides is not really the point of the exercise. If you dont have the multi now, well, you will spend a little more time in the airplane.

If you have any amount of multi time already under the belt, the trip to the airplane should consist of only 'putting all the pieces together'. Force the issue with the instructor when you finally do head to the airplane. Make damn sure that they will be prepared to reccomend you for the flight test after the first trip in the airplane if you fly it up to standard. If you are an old time bush rat, the airplane is not intimidating, and you should be able to fly up to standard after one or two trips in it. As soon as you do one flight up to standard, book a ride. If it takes you more than 2 flights to reach standard, refer to my first point, you didn't spend enough time in the simulator, and probably should have invested the 500 bucks in a pc.

When i came back to aviation after a many year absence, everything was expired on me. I spent a good deal of time getting ready on my pc sims, then I spent a few hours in the school sim. I did one flight in the airplane, then booked a ride. it was a very busy week, but basically went like this. Medical friday morning, IFR refresher seminar Fri-Sun. IFR written on monday, PSTAR written on tuesday. Tuesday and wednesday simming, thursday in the airplane. Friday a flight test in the morning, down to TC offices in the afternoon, left with an ATPL, ink not even dry. Total cost to go from 'everything expired' to 'valid atpl' was 1 week and about a thousand dollars. It would have been at least double that if I didn' t spend a good deal of time getting basic IFR back under control using the pc simulator, and it would have been substantially higher if I had let the instructor push me into doing a few more airplane rides.

If you are in the yvr area already, pm me, we'll set up a beer meet. I can show you a few ways to keep the cost down.

[Dog]

Hey Philly,
I'm back in Hardy June 1. Buy some beers and I'll give you some vectors dirving the pickup blindfolded.
Seriously though, Pro has a good little rating mill going. They have a formula for pumping out cloud tickets that's worked for years. Good advice about the pc sim too... half the battle is knowing the procedures inside out and backwards so you don't brain-lock when you have to add 30 degrees to a heading on a ride. If you know the procedures you'll be able to relax and fly the plane with no helmet fires. Spend lots of time reading the book and ride jumpseat as much as you can to get used to the flow of things. IFR is way easier than stooging once you know how to work in the system.

[untucked]

Goldeneagle has the right idea. The sim is where you learn IFR. Once you're in the plane you should just be getting to know the actual IFR environment and practising what you learned in the sim.

Just remember, if this is an initial IFR rating, there are minimum time requirements both in the sim and in the airplane. I believe it is 20 hours each. So when your instructor books you a second flight don't throw your hands in the air screaming "my instructor's trying to screw me, my instructor is a lousy, time building, pencil neck". You do actually need it.

[goldeneagle]

Goldeneagle has the right idea. The sim is where you learn IFR. Once you're in the plane you should just be getting to know the actual IFR environment and practising what you learned in the sim.

The point where a lot of folks tend to get the wrong idea is when using something like the pc sim, time is not loggable, so they get this impression that the time is wasted. That's the biggest and most expensive mistake most folks make. Time=money when you are sitting in the school equipment, and for most folks, sitting at the pc does not cost money. You can learn a lot sitting at the pc. Especially if you are going to one of the 'rating mill' type schools, there's no shortage of other folks around doing the same thing, and most of them spend a lot of time hanging around the airport. Tee up with one, and go spend that time hanging around a pc, swap the 'instructor' and 'student' roles back and forth in half hour or one hour sessions. you are saving yourself the hourly rate for a 'real instructor' and the sim rental.

Things that should be 'second nature' before you even start spending money at the school.

a) Primary instrument scan. It's easy to get this to the point where its just second nature on the pc. Turn the turbulence way up, then focus on flying headings and holding altitude. It's hard, much harder than in the real airplane. It's much harder, requires a lot more concentration on a pc-sim because you have no 'feel' of the movement. Get this down pat, and when you get to an airplane, it's going to be easy. Work the scan on the primary flight group, you will know when you are 'ready' because it'll suddenly click, and instead of focussing on each instrument one at a time thru the scan, you will find yourself leaning back a bit, and absorbing the big picture in one go, by bringing all 6 of the primaries into a single look. It's not 'magic', it's just practise, and, it's going to take 15 to 20 hours of focussed effort before suddenly it just 'happens'. You will feel like a big light bulb went on, and suddenly it all just clicks together. That's when it's time to head off and start spending money, not before. That 20 hours spent in front of the pc is going to save you at least 5 hours of actual flying time.

b) Track an ndb, inbound, outbond, any track, with strong winds, and moderate turbulence. Again, time is money, you can spend the time on the pc for $0, or you can spend it in an airplane for $250, your choice.

c) VOR intercepts should be something you dont even have to think about any more, it's just second nature. Same for tracking.

d) Hold entries should be nailed down pat, you should be able to correctly enter any hold given the clearance 20 seconds back from the holding fix. Any type of hold, any type of entry. This is something you can practise hundreds of times on the pc sim, for zero cost. This is one silly little detail that costs most IFR students at least 2 or 3 extra flights in the airplane, they blow a hold entry, so the exercise has to be repeated. With pc sims being a dime a dozen, if you are tight on cash, it's absolutely irresponsible to head off flying an airplane if you are still 'wondering' and 'conteplating' a hold entry more than 10 seconds after you copy the clearance. Save one trip in the airplane here, $250 buys a lotta beer. Save 3 trips in the airplane here, pays the rent.

e) Localizer track to touchdown, in significant wind. Again, costs nothing to go do it again, keep at it till it's easy. Dont get to concerned about glideslope on a pc-sim, they all are way to sensative on glideslope when you get in close. If you can hold a pc-sim glideslope down to 300 feet, then you can fly a real one down to the ground.

Just remember, if this is an initial IFR rating, there are minimum time requirements both in the sim and in the airplane. I believe it is 20 hours each. So when your instructor books you a second flight don't throw your hands in the air screaming "my instructor's trying to screw me, my instructor is a lousy, time building, pencil neck". You do actually need it.

I'll agree to a point, but, reference the comments above. There are two ways to approach the airplane part of the training if you have to do the minimum times anyways. Behind door number one, you can do it the traditional way, and start flying before IFR procedures are second nature. The trips will be hard, you will come back somewhat drained, and probably a little down on yourself. Behind door number 2, you can have the ifr procedures down pat before you go flying, then head off and actually enjoy flying a multi engine airplane for the first few times. it'll be a lot more fun, and, your focus will be the airplane, not the ifr procedures. If you have the IFR part down pat already, you'll find that you spend a lot more time flying around single engine, the instructor will indeed find ways to build up your workload. Since you are spending the money on the airplane, better to have your workload be airplane related rather than IFR related. In the end, by the time you have minimum times for the ride, it'll be a piece of cake.

With all that said, I'll kind of re-iterate what Dog mentioned above. Pick a school that's got a fine tuned rating mill in operation, one that grinds out ratings by the dozens. They have a system that's very well tuned to getting one up to standard, supplement thier system with a lot of homework on the pc-sim. A school that focusses on cloud tickets has seen it all, there's nothing you will do that can surprise them. If getting the job done in minimum timeframe is important, look at the fleet. Anybody that's been flying for a while knows the difference between a fleet of 2, and a fleet of 5 or 6 when one goes mechanical. If you are at a school with one or two airplanes available, and one goes mechanical for a week, well, you will be screwed. If they have 5 or 6, and one goes mechanical for a week, you probably wont even know about it. This of course assumes a common fleet, you do NOT want to end up at a school that has 3 airplanes, all different types. Switching types mid stream is just going to cost you more money, because you waste a trip learning the new type.

[polythene_pam]

goldeneagle: nice post.

On a side note, I've known many an ifr trainee who biatches and moans about their instructor trying to screw them, as they're "ready for the test" and have to do yet another practice flight. Meanwhile, they've not done a bit of practice on their own and they're expecting everything to be spoon fed. Usually these types have decent hands and feet, a lot of experience, but little real understanding of the ifr world. The instructors have the trust of the public to not sign off any dangerous pilots. Their job is to make sure you don't kill yourself or other pilots. They also have a responsibility to their school to have the grads up to standard.

Yes, there are instructors out there who, being broke, may pad the ground brief time, do a few too many laps in the hold, soak a few more flights out of you, etc. Another advantage of a large flight school is the fact that you can always spot these and simply avoid them by requesting a different instructor. They're easy to spot early during the sim portion. If all the other instructors are putting down .2 for briefing, when they actually spent .5, but one of them briefs for .7 even when not required, and charges to the minute, or rounds up, well, then you know who to avoid. Simply bring it up to the CFI in a non-confrontational manner (they're probably already aware, but it's good for them to hear feedback) and request a different instructor.

Also, the best instructor is usually the busiest, as they're getting a lot of experience and have no need for the extra work/pay/hours. Plus, they're probably getting more work because the cfi has more confidence in them.

[bravo bravo]

Go to PFC or CFC, you would be a valuable student to both schools. I have had great experiences with both. PFC has senecas, I and III (correct me if Im wrong please) and a few great instructors. Ron at CFC has been in the business for 25 or 30 years and has a great reputation for his IFR program. Havent had enough experience with other schools to have an opinion, I have been very happy with the 2 schools in the middle building at czbb
BB

[Cat Driver]

Have you looked into finding a working IFR pilot who flys for a living actually flying IFR?

Sure there are instructors in the Vancouver area who have trained in that area for decades.

The question you should ask is which would you prefer a pilot with hundreds of different IFR flights in vastly different conditions and areas or an instructor with thouseand of approaches in make believe in the Vancouver area?

Cat

[JW]

PFC has senecas, I and III (correct me if Im wrong please) and a few great instructors

Two Seneca I's, one with a stol kit and the other is normal. Pacific would probably be a good bet right now to do your IFR since they have very few students in the IFR program. The reason is that the BCIT program hasn't started multi training yet, I think they start in the fall and when that happens the twins will be booked solid. Right now the twins are pretty much wide open for bookings. PM me and I'll recommend a couple great IFR instructors, and not only from Pacific incase your not interested in them. http://www.pacificflying.com

JW

[groundtoflightdeck]

Use RT at Pro... I did my PPL with him and he'll make sure you know everything you wanted to know but where afraid to ask;)

[polythene_pam]

cat driver:

obviously, I'd take the instructor with the most organised, systematic training program backed up by a cfi and support system, with experience dealing with TC.

An instructor who teaches one multi-ifr rating after another will have the stuff down pat, better than most operational pilots.

There's a big difference between knowing your stuff and being well rehearsed in the explanation of what you are doing.

True, the instructors don't have the line experience, and do the same pretend flights over and over, but so what?? You're there to learn the basic ifr rating. It's a license to go get a job as fo, where you'll be beside an old guy and you can really start learning all those little gems and the nitty gritty of actual ifr flying.

No point in paying money so some old guy can tell you all his flying stories.. just get a professional ifr instructor to teach you the basics, and go get the other advice for free once you know the Instrument Flight Rules.

I'm very adamant about this... I've heard WAY too many people say "I'm just getting this guy i know to teach me my multi ifr. He's got xthousand hours, flies all these fancy planes. It'll be better than your school full of inexperienced guys."

Next thing you know, 2 months later they realise that they don't need all this advice on 'real' ifr flying. They just need somebody who can explain the basic rules well. They come to the flight school and realise that they're WAY behind those who have been in a well-defined course. They usually know a lot of little tricks of the trade and practical hints, but are nowhere near as solid in their knowledge of actual rules and by-the-book procedures.

Your friend may be a great pilot, and even a great instructor, but you should still go with a school. At the school, you'll get to fly with a few different instructors, and they have the support of a well-defined course package, seminars, a cfi, and people who are well-versed in the transport requirements for licensing. Someone who doesn't do ratings for a living may overlook certain qualification requirements. I've seen it often... "I thought I was ready, then found out that all these hours don't count", or "I did all that flying and didn't have to because i didnt' know i could count those other instrument hours!! plus, a school will have an atmosphere of learning... other students to study with, pc sims to practice on, a variety of instructors to choose from, etc etc.

Often, those other students are highly experienced pilots doing their renewals, and you can make some great contacts as well.

It's better to start with a good basic knowledge of how to fly ifr by the book, and pick up your captain's habits later on.

[redblue]

Hello,

How about Multi-IFR at Montair? Anyone have any comments?

[JW]

Did my multi IFR there, had a great time and learned a lot. Great instructors and great aircraft. Might have changed a bit since the air china stuff but I would still go back there.

JW

[redblue]

Hello,

How was the training syllabus like? Is is like Pro where they have a structured program or like "oh maybe we can do this today"

[JW]

Structured when I was there, but if you can always modify it to best fit you.

JW

[Hedley]

An instrument rating flight test consists of a hold and two approaches, flown in excellent VFR weather.

The examiner will almost certainly set the hold up for maximum crosswind, and so that you can't use a direct entry.

One approach will be non-precision (traditionally NDB) and one will be an ILS (a cinch).

Now that you know what the objective is, it probably won't surprise you to learn that training for an instrument rating involves flying holds and approaches in excellent VFR weather.

Although there are some skills and tricks to be learned, it's really not that hard to fly a hold and two approaches in excellent VFR weather. If nothing else, your instrument instructor will have you fly all the nearby holds and approaches that you could possibly fly on your test. One nearby, highly recommended school does precisely that. The examiner doesn't have time to take you 1000nm from home, after all. The instrument instructor will almost certainly know exactly what the local examiner's flight test consists of - so you will fly it over and over until you can.

However, don't be fooled by thinking that the above in any way qualifies you, in a practical sense, to conduct all-weather flying. There is an awful lot to learn, after you get your instrument rating. Think back to right after you got your private pilot's licence. I'll bet you've come a long way since then, wrt VFR flying. Same same IFR.

[Hedley]

Here's a free tip for anyone starting to fly under the hood:

Would you like to always effortlessly track the final approach course of any approach, regardless of the wind(shear)?

Easy. Get yourself, however briefly, on the final approach course. For a LOC or BC or VOR, this is the white vertical needle. For an NDB, you want to have the inbound track at the top of the DG, with the ADF needle also at the top (pointing at the NDB at the FAF fix, or on the field).

Once you are there, glance at the GPS "bearing" and "track" numbers, programmed to the airport.

The bearing should be within a degree of the final approach course on the approach plate.

Now, the for brilliant pilot stuff: push on the rudder pedals until the "bearing" and "track" numbers are the same.

Voila. The VOR/ADF needles will be perfect, all the way down. With the GPS, there is no need to ever let them move.

If you feel a bump, that's the wind shear. Instantly roll off some of whatever crab you have on, and recheck the bearing/track to keep them the same.

Look up after a while - there's the runway.