is bad QOL a guarantee?

[mgmtthrowaway]

I've wanted to fly for work all my life but pursued my backup career in management outside aviation instead. I make what a CA would at a smaller outfit and get over inflation raises every year, never work weekends or holidays.

I'm working on my ratings and see a lot of movement to airlines, but every time I check av or talk to people I see horror stories of conditions getting worse or people sitting on reserve for 5+ years. I'm pretty happy with my pay and QOL at my current job though I don't see myself doing it forever.

The way it seems to go from my POV is 2 years instructing, then 3 years at a smaller company (jazz, encore) and then several years as an FO on reserve at a bigger airline, then if you get upgraded to captain you're at the bottom of the seniority list and your weekends and Christmas are gone for another 5+ years.

I hear stories of guys working 20+ days a month as a reserve FO for half of what I'm making now, with all the fun of waking up at weird hours and not being able to plan around life events or holidays. Apparently "times are good" now yet there is still so much bs going on!

The best part is all the assumptions are off if the music stops, which seems to be a guarantee as times goes on. I'm left wondering has anyone regretted quitting a stable job to get into this industry?

[flyingcanuck]

Short answer no, long answer it depends on you.

We do it because we love the job, at least I do, however, I was lucky and knew from an early age. Starting "late" is a big deal. If you have a job you like, with QOL you like, I'd recommend just renting or buying a plane and doing that. Since you're working on your ratings do you feel you'd be happy just flying around a couple of times a month?

There are some people that despise the 9-5 and are super happy to go into aviation, but there are some that are just ok with it and don't see how big of a deal jumping into aviation is.

Ask yourself these questions.

- Do I want to start over and wait ~5 years to have an ok schedule or at least make more than min wage?
- Can I afford the paycut?
- Will the schedule conflict with my life as it is right now?
- Will I regret NOT flying commercially and just staying at my current job?

Personally, i think if you're committed to one direction already, changing may not be worth it unless you really really want to fly commercially. If its just a cool thing then dont do it.

[digits_]

The sucky part is you'll likely regret whichever choice you make.

Flying privately might be a good alternative. Once you've got your PPL (which is the first step anyway), see if you like it.
If you do, then go fly at 3 am in -30 degrees for a whole week, see if you still like it

Ask why you want to fly: for the feeling of flight, to control a 50 ton aircraft, to go places, as a personal challenge, ... ? Can you satisfy those desires in some other way?

[mgmtthrowaway]

The sucky part is you'll likely regret whichever choice you make.

Flying privately might be a good alternative. Once you've got your PPL (which is the first step anyway), see if you like it.
If you do, then go fly at 3 am in -30 degrees for a whole week, see if you still like it

Ask why you want to fly: for the feeling of flight, to control a 50 ton aircraft, to go places, as a personal challenge, ... ? Can you satisfy those desires in some other way?

What you said in the beginning rings in my head every day. I have my CPL just waiting for multi and ifr. I think the motivation for me is I've always wanted to do it and feel I'll want a change of career eventually. If I don't do it, I'll wonder what if and regret it forever.

I know everyone values things differently but I wanted to ask people who actually have suffered 10 years or whatever the real number is to be home most of the time you want to be, and not drowning in bills, would you quit a good job to start from 0 and work your way to that first scenario?

[digits_]

The sucky part is you'll likely regret whichever choice you make.

Flying privately might be a good alternative. Once you've got your PPL (which is the first step anyway), see if you like it.
If you do, then go fly at 3 am in -30 degrees for a whole week, see if you still like it

Ask why you want to fly: for the feeling of flight, to control a 50 ton aircraft, to go places, as a personal challenge, ... ? Can you satisfy those desires in some other way?

What you said in the beginning rings in my head every day. I have my CPL just waiting for multi and ifr. I think the motivation for me is I've always wanted to do it and feel I'll want a change of career eventually. If I don't do it, I'll wonder what if and regret it forever.

I know everyone values things differently but I wanted to ask people who actually have suffered 10 years or whatever the real number is to be home most of the time you want to be, and not drowning in bills, would you quit a good job to start from 0 and work your way to that first scenario?

I did a bit of a combo. I kept working my old job on the side depending on how busy I was with flying. Did that for 10 years, but never found the quality of life I wanted, so went back to my first career.

Would I do it again? Yes, as a younger guy to experience the 'adventure'. Right now? Unlikely. I appreciate a schedule and the ability to plan my life and actually live.

I only fly for fun now, when I want.

I still do look up and sometimes wish I could fly the planes flying over, but I rarely wish I had the job of flying them though.

[lownslow]

In short flying for an airline is a lot like being in a Ponzi scheme. A lot of people will complain about it and make a lot of noise. They’re probably right. A number of people enjoy it and wouldn’t do anything else, but they’re quietly content and harder to find.

What I think is best is to talk to a lot of professional pilots one on one and try to see which of them you relate to most as a person. Your experience will probably be a lot like theirs and you have to then ask yourself if that’s what you want. Me? I’m a happy-go-lucky idiot so I’m fine with this weird aviation business. There’s certainly room for improvement but I’m in it now and glad I am.

[fish4life]

Just an FYI if holidays off are important it’s a lot more than 5 years. Lots of weekends and holidays off is a longggg time especially if you wanted to advance to the left seat of a plane at AC as an example.

[mgmtthrowaway]

Just an FYI if holidays off are important it’s a lot more than 5 years. Lots of weekends and holidays off is a longggg time especially if you wanted to advance to the left seat of a plane at AC as an example.

I believe you, but for the longest time I honestly didn't think it could be that bad if there are so many people in line for those jobs. I'm hoping to have kids in a few years I can't imagine putting it off for a decade (or getting divorced)

[DanWEC]

Well, this part is up to you.
Don't take shit. If you know your worth, but aren't afraid of hard work you'll do fine. When you're starting out you will possibly work all over the country, you will work all hours. You will work for pretty low pay, but know where the line is, and don't take shit. These can be the experiences of a lifetime, not one of servitude.
There's a world of difference between an operator who has a budget for an entry level pilot, and one that purposely exploits them- there are still plenty out there. The good ones will reward your hardest work with priceless references. The others, will probably ask you to come back for a 2 buck an hour raise. Don't take the shit.

[Flight94]

I work at a 705. I'm home every night. Haven't worked a weekend in 6 months. Average 3 days of flying per week. I'm near the bottom for seniority as an FO. Salary is pretty good, and only goes up, eventually getting very good.

These jobs are out there (and it ain't AC or WJ!)

Good luck.

[ant_321]

It also depends on how you define a “bad QOL”. I worked a 9-5 during covid and couldn’t believe that’s a schedule that people want to work. It was horrible. I’d work every weekend and holiday for the next 10 years before I’d do that again.

[Outlaw58]

OP, a lot of the negative you read on these forums pertains for the most part to Airlines end the entry conditions, but it is not representative of the whole aviation industry.

I have heard from a much smarter person than I am one day: "If you're not having fun doing this job (flying), then you are doing it wrong!" What I mean is that Airline flying is only one of the many routes one can pursue in aviation and not necessarily the destination to get to for everyone. Although I agree that reading these boards, you'd think that if you are not a 787 CA, you still have not made it....LOL

There is military flying, corporate flying, bush flying, airshow flying, helicopter flying, flight testing, instructing,... all of these can be a destination, not just a hoop to get through. Rome was not built in a day and you will not get good QOL until you have invested a fair amount of time to gain the experience you need for the gig YOU want, not what everyone else tells you you should want. And if being an airline pilot is what YOU want, understand that there are many ways to get there and trying to get there via the most direct and fastest route at all cost is a guaranteed way to make sure you will hate flying at the other end (these boards are a testament to my last statement).

I joined the military as a pilot at 17 thinking I was going to be the Canadian version of Maverick as an F18 pilot and grow up to be the next Bob Hoover!! It will come as no surprise to you that my flying career turned out nothing like I imagined it would be. But looking back at it now, from my current Airline gig, where after many flying years I do enjoy a very good QOL, I do not regret one flying minute in my logbook, would fly them all over again if I was given the opportunity and while I may not have gone where I wanted to go, I ended up where I wanted to be. (That last bit was borrowed from Douglas Adams)

Finally, thanks for asking the question. I may not have totally answered your question but it did give me the opportunity to get some things off my chest.

I wish you a fantastic flying career!

58

[mgmtthrowaway]

OP, a lot of the negative you read on these forums pertains for the most part to Airlines end the entry conditions, but it is not representative of the whole aviation industry.

I have heard from a much smarter person than I am one day: "If you're not having fun doing this job (flying), then you are doing it wrong!" What I mean is that Airline flying is only one of the many routes one can pursue in aviation and not necessarily the destination to get to for everyone. Although I agree that reading these boards, you'd think that if you are not a 787 CA, you still have not made it....LOL

There is military flying, corporate flying, bush flying, airshow flying, helicopter flying, flight testing, instructing,... all of these can be a destination, not just a hoop to get through. Rome was not built in a day and you will not get good QOL until you have invested a fair amount of time to gain the experience you need for the gig YOU want, not what everyone else tells you you should want. And if being an airline pilot is what YOU want, understand that there are many ways to get there and trying to get there via the most direct and fastest route at all cost is a guaranteed way to make sure you will hate flying at the other end (these boards are a testament to my last statement).

I joined the military as a pilot at 17 thinking I was going to be the Canadian version of Maverick as an F18 pilot and grow up to be the next Bob Hoover!! It will come as no surprise to you that my flying career turned out nothing like I imagined it would be. But looking back at it now, from my current Airline gig, where after many flying years I do enjoy a very good QOL, I do not regret one flying minute in my logbook, would fly them all over again if I was given the opportunity and while I may not have gone where I wanted to go, I ended up where I wanted to be. (That last bit was borrowed from Douglas Adams)

Finally, thanks for asking the question. I may not have totally answered your question but it did give me the opportunity to get some things off my chest.

I wish you a fantastic flying career!

58

Thanks for that! I think most people gravitate to the airlines because it's the only stability in this country outside of the forces (but speaking to people there it's only a good idea you want to work for the forces) The direct and fastest route sucking does really ring true.

It also depends on how you define a “bad QOL”. I worked a 9-5 during covid and couldn’t believe that’s a schedule that people want to work. It was horrible. I’d work every weekend and holiday for the next 10 years before I’d do that again.

If everyone you know (including your wife) works roughly that schedule, having Tuesday and Wednesday off is fairly useless, same story if you want to be with your family & kids on Christmas but only getting the 2rd week of January off isn't that great either.

[twa22]

I don't have much to add, I'm still a newbie in this game, but I have already gotten to travel the world and go to some places I would've never thought I'd ever set foot in... Looking back on it, I've had some surreal experiences in just a few short years, that I can never forget, nor do I want to. They were so fulfilling that I crave it it even more.

And you know what's funny? In the moment, it was stressful, and I found myself complaining unintentionally. Sometimes you get caught up in the moment of negativity and you can't help yourself, but if you realized that those experiences were satisfying, then I think that's the answer for you. I've done the 9-5 and complained there, and I hated it, and I got zero satisfaction, and everytime I think back at those jobs, I tell myself, never again, I'd rather be flying

[cdnavater]

If you set your expectations low, this career will never disappoint you!
To that end, I don’t mean that in a derogatory way, for me I never aspired to the airlines and only applied because my situation changed. Went through some bankruptcy and subsequent downturns to “force” me to apply to the airlines.
I did 12 years of “bush” flying and while I cannot say it was all great, it was all great experience and I often reflect on if I would still be up there if the company stuck around. It’s possible but who knows!
I do love my airline gig and two statements about airline flying are true, you either have QOL or money but to have both will be about, well still waiting on the both. It’s all seniority and you move up the FO ladder fairly quickly in good times and lifestyle improves with that, if you’re chasing metal and paycheque, your lifestyle will suffer for, let’s say around 20 years.
I’ve been in the airline side for 17 years and am pretty senior company wide but mid pack on my roster, so mid pack lifestyle which combined with commuting means I work two weekends per month and usually have either Christmas or New Years but not typically both.
My kids are grown now but back when, Christmas was the 23rd or 20th or whatever day I was home around that time, that is a fact of this industry and is what you make of it.
Cheers and best of luck with what you decide!

[Arnie Pye]

Over a 25 year career, I've been home for about 1/2 of my wedding anniversaries, birthdays and holidays. Some of this depends on who you are working for, the type of flying you are doing and the schedule you bid for/can hold.

Most places, you won't work 20 days a month - 16 is a more realistic number. Maybe 14 if you're lucky. These are not your average office manager hours. They will be 12-14 hour days for the most part.

Seniority doesn't carry over and accrue like a teacher so every time you switch companies (or seats from FO to Captain) you're starting at the bottom. Back to the 16 days of low credit work. Eventually it gets better. Then you switch. Good news is that times are good and you won't need to change jobs much to get to a scheduled airline.

Most airlines have roughly the same captain requirements right now: 4-5000 hours total time. That never even used to get you an interview for an FO at Jazz a few years back.

I can't speak to the reserve situation at other airlines but at Flair, once you're out of line indoc, you probably only spend 2 months on reserve before you can hold a full block of flying. The situation is probably the same over at Lynx. Rapid growth is driving the demand for full blocks of flying. More mature airlines will have a longer reserve time but I doubt anyone would be on reserve for 5 years, unless they want to be.

At most scheduled airlines, unless you're in the top 1/3 you can't count on weekends off, summer vacation awards or highly productive flying.

There are people who have been predicting doom since the beginning of the pandemic. 1/2 of this industry spent 18 months working in other jobs or on EI. If we go into a recession, flying will slow down for sure but most airlines can't staff the flights they want to do today so a recession would probably help companies catch up. I certainly don't see COVID 2.0 layoffs in the future. We are too far behind the curve now.

Is the lifestyle good? I can't tell you that any more than I can tell you what type of food is better.

[thepoors]

I work at a 705. I'm home every night. Haven't worked a weekend in 6 months. Average 3 days of flying per week. I'm near the bottom for seniority as an FO. Salary is pretty good, and only goes up, eventually getting very good.

These jobs are out there (and it ain't AC or WJ!)

Good luck.

Just say the company then. Why the mystery?

[Rowdy]

I started flying 20 years ago.

My initial Ppl GS.. I'm the only one left flying. There were 26 of us.

My Initial Commercial GS.. 22 of us. Two still in aviation

My first commercial operation ground school.. 10 of us. TWO are still flying.

Thats a LOT of money and time and energy spent when most drop out of the industry based on all the previously mentioned QOL issues.

Not everyone has a spouse that will support you or understand this industry. Divorce rate here is insanely high. You will lose friends. Both from the working conditions AND accidents. You WILL miss weddings, birthdays, parties, holidays, vacations, events of all kinds. You'll think of quitting many times along the way.

But at the end of the day, theres a reason I'm still here, and if you're willing to make some sacrifices, you'll get where you want to go and enjoy the ride and the adventure.

[JHR]

Been flying professionally for 27 years. Raised three kids (I was home so much they called me mom). Still married to the same woman who has been retired for years because we don't need a second income. Only lost a job once but never missed a paycheque. Have been to many wonderful destinations and have been able to enjoy and explore them on someone else's dime. Would never want to fly for the airlines.

[C-FDPB]

Depends what quality you're looking for. Do you NEED to stay in a major center with ALL the amenities at your finger tips? Airline flying is NOT the be all end all. Loads of other types to consider with different challenges and perks. Bush, fire, survey, government, coastal float, agricultural, cargo etc..are all different types to consider as well. (Sometimes) they suit your "lifestyle" better than any heavy tin can would.