Be Ready

[C-GGGQ]

So in theory, what would happen to new hires in training if the strike was to come before they’re rated? I assume they’re in probation so does training cease? Or are the let go?

[Fanblade]

In my experience training comes to a stop. Most of the training department is part of the union. When the strike ends everything winds back up.

Its a stressful time. But at the end of the day it quickly becomes a distant memory. Everyone moves on.

It’s preferable it doesn’t happen. But if it does it is not the end of the world.

As an added bonus you get to go on a forum and talk about your experience. You know what my one regret is? That I didn’t enjoy the home time more with my young kids during the strikes. Too stressed over things that inevitably ended up irrelevant in the grand scheme.

[pacman007]

What happens if the WestJet pilots go on strike, is the company on the hook with the passenger bill of rights for cancelled flights?

[Fanblade]

What happens if the WestJet pilots go on strike, is the company on the hook with the passenger bill of rights for cancelled flights?

No. Labor action is an exclusion.

[Canadaflyer46]

Great advice Fanblade.

[aerobod]

What happens if the WestJet pilots go on strike, is the company on the hook with the passenger bill of rights for cancelled flights?

No. Labor action is an exclusion.

With the current APPR, the airlines do have responsibility for events beyond their control (which includes labour action), the least they have to do is provide a refund at PAX request, but certainly within 14 days from first flight on an itinerary they need to arrange alternative flights on another carrier within 48 hours of the original flight time if a PAX requests that instead of a refund. The way the APPR is written it is not clear whether a full refund to the original form of payment is good enough when the first flight on the itinerary is more than 14 days in the future (this is an area that could be subject to legal challenge). Here is the APPR wording from https://rppa-appr.ca/eng/right/flight-d ... cellations :

“Situations outside the airline's control
(for example, weather conditions that make it impossible to safely operate the aircraft)

Summary of rebooking and refunds for situtions outside the airline's control
The airline (large or small) must rebook you on its next available flight or on the flight of an airline with which it has a commercial agreement. The flight must depart within 48 hours after your original departure time. If the airline cannot rebook you within 48 hours, the airline must, at your choice:

Provide a refund; or
Make alternate travel arrangements, free of charge. The details of the new flight depend on the size of the airline, as follows.
If you chose alternate travel arrangements

Large airlines

Large airlines* must rebook you on a flight operated by any airline. The new flight must take any reasonable route out of the same airport or from a nearby airport to your destination. In that case, they will also have to transport you to that airport.

*The size of the airline is listed in the terms and conditions of your ticket (the airline's tariff). Air Canada (including Jazz) and WestJet are currently large airlines.

Small airlines

Small airlines* (for example, Sunwing, Air Transat, Porter, Swoop or Flair) must rebook you on their next available flight or on the flight of an airline with which they have a commercial agreement. The flight must take any reasonable route from the same airport to your destination. Small airlines are not required to rebook you with an airline with which they do not have a commercial agreement.

*The size of the airline is listed in the terms and conditions of your ticket (the airline's tariff). Sunwing Airlines, Air Transat, Porter, Swoop and Flair Airlines are currently small airlines.

If you chose a refund and you're no longer at your point of origin

If your trip no longer serves its purpose because of the delay or cancellation, and you're no longer at your point of origin (for example, if you are at a connecting point), then the airline (large or small) must rebook you on a flight back to your point of origin that accommodates your travel needs, free of charge, and refund the entire ticket (as if no part of the trip had been made).”

[pacman007]

Oh wow! That would be expensive and a nightmare refund all the pax.

[averageatbest]

Oh wow! That would be expensive and a nightmare refund all the pax.

People stop booking with airlines that have strike rumours brewign. I'm sure that the company has already started to see a small drop in bookings due to the conciliation request.

When the strike vote hits, sales will drop to the point where the company will lose millions if they let it get that far. Getting to a strike could cost tens of millions.

[Fanblade]

What happens if the WestJet pilots go on strike, is the company on the hook with the passenger bill of rights for cancelled flights?

No. Labor action is an exclusion.

With the current APPR, the airlines do have responsibility for events beyond their control (which includes labour action), the least they have to do is provide a refund at PAX request, but certainly within 14 days from first flight on an itinerary they need to arrange alternative flights on another carrier within 48 hours of the original flight time if a PAX requests that instead of a refund. The way the APPR is written it is not clear whether a full refund to the original form of payment is good enough when the first flight on the itinerary is more than 14 days in the future (this is an area that could be subject to legal challenge). Here is the APPR wording from https://rppa-appr.ca/eng/right/flight-d ... cellations :

“Situations outside the airline's control
(for example, weather conditions that make it impossible to safely operate the aircraft)

Summary of rebooking and refunds for situtions outside the airline's control
The airline (large or small) must rebook you on its next available flight or on the flight of an airline with which it has a commercial agreement. The flight must depart within 48 hours after your original departure time. If the airline cannot rebook you within 48 hours, the airline must, at your choice:

Provide a refund; or
Make alternate travel arrangements, free of charge. The details of the new flight depend on the size of the airline, as follows.
If you chose alternate travel arrangements

Large airlines

Large airlines* must rebook you on a flight operated by any airline. The new flight must take any reasonable route out of the same airport or from a nearby airport to your destination. In that case, they will also have to transport you to that airport.

*The size of the airline is listed in the terms and conditions of your ticket (the airline's tariff). Air Canada (including Jazz) and WestJet are currently large airlines.

Small airlines

Small airlines* (for example, Sunwing, Air Transat, Porter, Swoop or Flair) must rebook you on their next available flight or on the flight of an airline with which they have a commercial agreement. The flight must take any reasonable route from the same airport to your destination. Small airlines are not required to rebook you with an airline with which they do not have a commercial agreement.

*The size of the airline is listed in the terms and conditions of your ticket (the airline's tariff). Sunwing Airlines, Air Transat, Porter, Swoop and Flair Airlines are currently small airlines.

If you chose a refund and you're no longer at your point of origin

If your trip no longer serves its purpose because of the delay or cancellation, and you're no longer at your point of origin (for example, if you are at a connecting point), then the airline (large or small) must rebook you on a flight back to your point of origin that accommodates your travel needs, free of charge, and refund the entire ticket (as if no part of the trip had been made).”

Are you sure?

According to Gábor Lukács the passenger rights legislation leaves labor action beyond the airlines control. So in Canada a free rebooking or refund at passenger request. But no compensation. Now outside Canada’s borders the rules are different. Europe for example doesn’t exempt labor action.

But realistically most of WJ exposure would be to domestic rules which don’t require compensation.

[Fanblade]

Frankly I’d be disappointed if WS went under as I have many friends there that would be affected and also that would be the end of my retirement privileges, but I’d give it 50/50 chance of surviving at the moment if a lengthy (3 months or more) strike happens. I can’t see Onex stepping in to provide any additional capital once all the aircraft have been leased to provide more working capital (as was the main source during Covid). As a private company it will be a lot easier to wind up operations as opposed to filing for bankruptcy as a public company - pay off the liabilities, employees laid off with at least legal minimums of severance. Written off by Onex as a failed experiment in airline ownership, with tax relief on the initial investment as a business loss against their other profitable ventures. I can’t see a bunch of angry pilots having much influence over any financial decision Onex is going to make. Tick tock!

Aerobod,

I call BS on who you state you are and your stated motivation.

In my opinion, the post I have quoted above demonstrates an NHL-level of manipulative fear mongering on a vulnerable employee group. And what’s worse is you know it.

First you start with sympathy to build comradery. “I have friends their”. “ I would be disappointed”.

Then you quickly move to fear and likely death of your career.

Culminating in “tick tock”. The addition of time counting down toward your death. A sense of critical urgency. The final ingredient require to construct a burning platform.

Your constructed burning platform is simply too obvious. You over played it. On an anonymous forum no less.

I suggest WJ people also do a google search of Burning Platform. This is a very common tactic from management. Manufacture a situation were the employee group believes their death is imminent. They will agree to anything.

A quote around AC from our management. Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning.

I have seen it. Been tricked by it. Can now smell its stench miles away.

So to undo some of this rhetoric.

Let’s say Onex really is regretting their purchase of WJ. WJ’s value is not zero. Far from it. They wouldn’t simply shut it down and right down the entire purchase price. No they would sell it at current market value and right down the net loss.

The only way aerobod’s fear mongering plays out is if WJ has zero value. That is far from the case.

[Fanblade]

CALIN ROVINESCU Sometimes you have to reinvent the wheel Calin Rovinescu, the gung-ho chief restructuring officer (CRO) at Air Canada for 12 drama-packed months in 2003 and 2004, seems to get an extra hit of adrenalin when the pressure in a crisis reaches a climax. "The expression we would use is a 'burning platform,'" he says. A favourite adage of his: "Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... le1090487/

Calin was king of the burning platform.

[Fanblade]

https://fairygodboss.com/career-topics/burning-platform

Things to know about Burning Platforms

[NSC182E]

Well you better not burn anything because firefighters are apparently now redundant. I read it here. Apparently so are paramedics.

Nothing like a disgruntled employee to turn me off a company. I flew 8 family of four trips on WJ in 2022 each one worse than the last. 3 in 2021 and 2 in 2020. I chose who I spend my money with. All from the east coast. Between getting shafted by the decision to abandon eastern canada and attitudes like I have read in this post from the employees I’ll have no problem purchasing my tickets on AC.
Guess who’s buying tickets on your airline. Cops teachers paramedics and firefighters. They’re the ones who can afford to fly. Mostly unionized. Keep running them down and see how well paid you are with no customes

I wouldn’t want some of the people who posted here responsible for my and my family’s safety.

[lostaviator]

Well you better not burn anything because firefighters are apparently now redundant. I read it here. Apparently so are paramedics.

Nothing like a disgruntled employee to turn me off a company. I flew 8 family of four trips on WJ in 2022 each one worse than the last. 3 in 2021 and 2 in 2020. I chose who I spend my money with. All from the east coast. Between getting shafted by the decision to abandon eastern canada and attitudes like I have read in this post from the employees I’ll have no problem purchasing my tickets on AC.


I wouldn’t want some of the people who posted here responsible for my and my family’s safety.

You do realize that the poster who made those remarks is an AC employee, right?

This is an anonymous forum. Just because someone is posting in the WJ subforum does not make them an employee.

So - how do you feel about putting your family on both WJ and AC now? If you spend your life avoiding workforces with upset employees, you might have quite a difficult life. This might come as a surprise to you - but nurses are pretty ticked off these days as well. (Not picking on nurses, it was just an example that came to mind)

All that being said, I think you are taking their post out of context. We go our entire careers being told we are just button pushers. Why can't it be turned around once in a while? Is everyone else too sensitive? This type of attitude is akin to a theist being able to tell an atheist he/she is going to hell, but unable to handle criticism of their faith from the other direction.

[SeaBat]

Oh no! Please Mr. 182E... please don't leave us and go to another airline. There. Does that make you feel better? We honestly don't give a flying fu@& when a passenger states, "I'll never fly on your airline again." To be honest, we normally make fun of you later that night while having a beer at the bar.

[aerobod]

Frankly I’d be disappointed if WS went under as I have many friends there that would be affected and also that would be the end of my retirement privileges, but I’d give it 50/50 chance of surviving at the moment if a lengthy (3 months or more) strike happens. I can’t see Onex stepping in to provide any additional capital once all the aircraft have been leased to provide more working capital (as was the main source during Covid). As a private company it will be a lot easier to wind up operations as opposed to filing for bankruptcy as a public company - pay off the liabilities, employees laid off with at least legal minimums of severance. Written off by Onex as a failed experiment in airline ownership, with tax relief on the initial investment as a business loss against their other profitable ventures. I can’t see a bunch of angry pilots having much influence over any financial decision Onex is going to make. Tick tock!

Aerobod,

I call BS on who you state you are and your stated motivation.

In my opinion, the post I have quoted above demonstrates an NHL-level of manipulative fear mongering on a vulnerable employee group. And what’s worse is you know it.

First you start with sympathy to build comradery. “I have friends their”. “ I would be disappointed”.

Then you quickly move to fear and likely death of your career.

Culminating in “tick tock”. The addition of time counting down toward your death. A sense of critical urgency. The final ingredient require to construct a burning platform.

Your constructed burning platform is simply too obvious. You over played it. On an anonymous forum no less.

I suggest WJ people also do a google search of Burning Platform. This is a very common tactic from management. Manufacture a situation were the employee group believes their death is imminent. They will agree to anything.

A quote around AC from our management. Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning.

I have seen it. Been tricked by it. Can now smell its stench miles away.

So to undo some of this rhetoric.

Let’s say Onex really is regretting their purchase of WJ. WJ’s value is not zero. Far from it. They wouldn’t simply shut it down and right down the entire purchase price. No they would sell it at current market value and right down the net loss.

The only way aerobod’s fear mongering plays out is if WJ has zero value. That is far from the case.

If you know anyone at WS who was there before mid 2018, many who work in HQ know who I say I am is exactly right. Sorry if it doesn't meet your narrative or assumptions. In some cases they may not know me by name, but they will recognise the green Caterham I have in my avatar (the photo is actually from when it was in that parking lot, near the fence on 78 Av NE), often driven under the barrier at the end of the west parking lot by the fire station, to avoid holding up the people behind in the morning, due it being a hassle to undo my harness to get the badge out.

Sorry that facts and analysis are not something you want to look at, preferring ad-hominem, attacks over analysis to provide a sound reasoned alternative view.

[NSC182E]

Oh no! Please Mr. 182E... please don't leave us and go to another airline. There. Does that make you feel better? We honestly don't give a flying fu@& when a passenger states, "I'll never fly on your airline again." To be honest, we normally make fun of you later that night while having a beer at the bar.

Well good for you. Maybe if you were better paid you wouldn’t be such an asshole? Nah. I doubt that

[RippleRock]

They won't, they feel they're entitled to make 2-3-4x more than teachers who raise the next generation (and their kids), paramedics who save lives on a daily basis, police, and firefighters, all because they captain a metal tube that mostly flies itself on autopilot.

If money to do flight school wasn't a barrier of entry to most, many of these pilots wouldn't be doing these jobs.

The worst result a teacher could have is that a former student ends up living in their Moms basement till they're 30.

Cops aren't allowed to arrest anymore without consulting the diversity and cultural handbook.

Paramedics are too busy scraping the vomit out of the throats of overdosed drug users to help anyone that pays taxes.

Firefighters are almost redundant with the new firecodes requiring sprinklers and half a hundred smoke alarms in every building. When was the last time you saw them racing off to a real fire? By the time they do get to a real one, the occupants have been out making Smores for a half hour.

Above all, the most overpaid are accountants who are overcompensated bookkeepers that do nothing a properly programmed computer can't do 4x faster. Trust me, there's a program for everything you do.

Anything else?

Congrats, you've proven that since there's a program for everything you do, you don't need a raise.

My comments were "tough and cheek".

For you to come on here and claim pilots do nothing but sit in metal tube that flys itself is asinine.

You clearly have no clue. I have no clue what you do, nor a firefighter, nor a paramedic, but I would never have the audacity to say it and claim honestly that their contribution is worthless.

Put your "big girl panties" on and suck it up with bit of class.....or better yet find an accountants forum instead.

[digits_]

My comments were "tough and cheek".

I can see where your disdain for teachers comes from

[RippleRock]

My comments were "tough and cheek".

I can see where your disdain for teachers comes from

Both my parents were teachers. Dont know where thats coming from........you're reaching I guess.

They never had the capacity to kill anyone with a hasty decision though. Nor were they ever required to make any life or death decisions that relied on years of experience.

Accountants, now those are the real heros of the airline industry. LOL. Just look at the landscape littered with epic failures........guess you'd claim they were caused by fair employee compensation. Again, LOL.