Survey: Are you leaving jazz?

[cdnavater]

In summary from a number of surveys %80 of jazz pilots and leaving, and %80 believe that prospective pilots should not consider jazz. So overall, jazz has a %20 approval rate.
As the union and company continue to delay and meaningful compensation improvement, I can only imagine this number will fall. And it doesn’t seem anyone is in a rush to improve jazz.

I don’t think you could infer from a survey on avcanada is accurate in any way, the demographic would mostly consist of more junior pilots, rightfully frustrated pilots, looking for support from their peers.
Survey the 1-800 on the seniority list you’ll likely find the opposite, 80/20 approval.
I do have a feeling the Porter payscale recently released will accelerate the need to address the pay at Jazz, we won’t have any E175 pilots left, if they don’t.

If a year 3 Jazz E175 CA leaves for Porter they are looking at a 75% raise in year 1, and up to 150% if they remain at Porter to top scale. A year 18+ E175 CA at Jazz is looking at a 14% raise in year 1 at Porter and 62% to top scale.

These are the facts. That is reality. It is time for the parties to deal with the reality.

Yes, those are the facts, however do you realistically see an 18+ Captain leaving for a Startup? It is essentially that, a startup, a risk if you were to ask me. You might get the odd guy retire and go there for a few years but I would venture the amount of pilots in the top scale at Jazz leaving for Porter will be fairly insignificant.
A high percentage of original SR who haven’t been called for AC or told no, will go. In the end, the question is, will Jazz or AC pony up to stop it or simply allow the situation to right size us naturally.
My gut tells me, there are about 900-1000 pilots who aren’t or can’t go, is that enough to staff 80 fins, I would think so.

[rudder]

My gut tells me, there are about 900-1000 pilots who aren’t or can’t go, is that enough to staff 80 fins, I would think so.

I think that 80 fins is where Jazz is headed sooner rather than later, irrespective of the 105 fleet guarantee to December 2025.

I could see 1100 flying positions for 2023. 1000 flying positions for 2024. And as few as 900 flying positions for 2025 and beyond. And that assumes no more drastic changes to the CPA (less than 80 fin fleet guarantee).

AC will order more A220’s and use those and the Rouge A319’s to repatriate more flying from Express. Express fleet will see fairly dramatic change. I see the 36 Q400’s staying, perhaps the 25 E175’s, but the 21 older CRJ900’s and some or all of the 15 CRJ200’s will leave. So, CRJ 900’s in YVR and E175 in YYZ/YUL. Q400’s still based both east and west.

A lot of this will depend on where AC goes with scope with ACPA. Right now AC cannot source any other vendor for the 55+ seat flying, and has restrictions on codeshare (UA North America cones to mind, including UA Express). AC either needs to feed itself at the hubs or find someone else to provide the feed if it is not AC Express.

Attrition to AC is predictable and manageable under a revised and reliable flow arrangement. Attrition elsewhere is now becoming a larger problem.

You cannot be the lowest paying operator and think that is sustainable. It used to be year 1-5. But with the pay changes at the operators that now attract Jazz pilots, it is all years of pay that need to be reset to 2023 realities.

In the US they accepted the new reality (pilot supply shortfall and numerous alternative employment opportunities) and reset pay in response (supply vs demand curve - wages MUST increase). Canada must do the same. Some operators have already moved in that direction. Jazz must do the same or suffer the consequences of non-performance under the terms of the CPA (as referenced in the Risk section of the AC 2022 MD&A.

[cdnavater]

My gut tells me, there are about 900-1000 pilots who aren’t or can’t go, is that enough to staff 80 fins, I would think so.

I think that 80 fins is where Jazz is headed sooner rather than later, irrespective of the 105 fleet guarantee to December 2025.

I could see 1100 flying positions for 2023. 1000 flying positions for 2024. And as few as 900 flying positions for 2025 and beyond. And that assumes no more drastic changes to the CPA (less than 80 fin fleet guarantee).

AC will order more A220’s and use those and the Rouge A319’s to repatriate more flying from Express. Express fleet will see fairly dramatic change. I see the 36 Q400’s staying, perhaps the 25 E175’s, but the 21 older CRJ900’s and some or all of the 15 CRJ200’s will leave. So, CRJ 900’s in YVR and E175 in YYZ/YUL. Q400’s still based both east and west.

A lot of this will depend on where AC goes with scope with ACPA. Right now AC cannot source any other vendor for the 55+ seat flying, and has restrictions on codeshare (UA North America cones to mind, including UA Express). AC either needs to feed itself at the hubs or find someone else to provide the feed if it is not AC Express.

Attrition to AC is predictable and manageable under a revised and reliable flow arrangement. Attrition elsewhere is now becoming a larger problem.

You cannot be the lowest paying operator and think that is sustainable. It used to be year 1-5. But with the pay changes at the operators that now attract Jazz pilots, it is all years of pay that need to be reset to 2023 realities.

In the US they accepted the new reality (pilot supply shortfall and numerous alternative employment opportunities) and reset pay in response (supply vs demand curve - wages MUST increase). Canada must do the same. Some operators have already moved in that direction. Jazz must do the same or suffer the consequences of non-performance under the terms of the CPA (as referenced in the Risk section of the AC 2022 MD&A.

As per usual, I can’t argue with your logic, would it be fair to say the top 700 of the current list are here until retirement and are mostly Captain? With 80 fins, could Jazz handle attrition due to retirement and AC flow. I would think so, they would really only need to replace 50ish Captains per year.
Any pay reset will have to come from AC, other than aircraft leasing under the CPA, I would think the margins are too thin for a significant increase.
The longer this draws on the more likely a purchase of Jazz from AC is, probably in the 60/40 range now.
I know it’s business but how could AC use the non performance clause if they created the situation, they drove the wages down systematically over the last decade. Would they use that to negotiate a new reduced fleet, absolutely.
Now that Chorus is the largest regional leasing company in the world, that will be their focus and a a sale of Jazz with the leasing agreements will take the CPA risk off the books. AC could do whatever they need with that asset.
I have to admit though, I’m getting slightly nervous about the lack of action to address the publicly known issues, makes you wonder what the plan is. They’ve had us beat at every corner and it’s hard to think we could win a battle, beaten dog syndrome!

[McKinley]

My gut tells me, there are about 900-1000 pilots who aren’t or can’t go, is that enough to staff 80 fins, I would think so.

I think that 80 fins is where Jazz is headed sooner rather than later, irrespective of the 105 fleet guarantee to December 2025.

I could see 1100 flying positions for 2023. 1000 flying positions for 2024. And as few as 900 flying positions for 2025 and beyond. And that assumes no more drastic changes to the CPA (less than 80 fin fleet guarantee).

AC will order more A220’s and use those and the Rouge A319’s to repatriate more flying from Express. Express fleet will see fairly dramatic change. I see the 36 Q400’s staying, perhaps the 25 E175’s, but the 21 older CRJ900’s and some or all of the 15 CRJ200’s will leave. So, CRJ 900’s in YVR and E175 in YYZ/YUL. Q400’s still based both east and west.

A lot of this will depend on where AC goes with scope with ACPA. Right now AC cannot source any other vendor for the 55+ seat flying, and has restrictions on codeshare (UA North America cones to mind, including UA Express). AC either needs to feed itself at the hubs or find someone else to provide the feed if it is not AC Express.

Attrition to AC is predictable and manageable under a revised and reliable flow arrangement. Attrition elsewhere is now becoming a larger problem.

You cannot be the lowest paying operator and think that is sustainable. It used to be year 1-5. But with the pay changes at the operators that now attract Jazz pilots, it is all years of pay that need to be reset to 2023 realities.

In the US they accepted the new reality (pilot supply shortfall and numerous alternative employment opportunities) and reset pay in response (supply vs demand curve - wages MUST increase). Canada must do the same. Some operators have already moved in that direction. Jazz must do the same or suffer the consequences of non-performance under the terms of the CPA (as referenced in the Risk section of the AC 2022 MD&A.

As per usual, I can’t argue with your logic, would it be fair to say the top 700 of the current list are here until retirement and are mostly Captain? With 80 fins, could Jazz handle attrition due to retirement and AC flow. I would think so, they would really only need to replace 50ish Captains per year.
Any pay reset will have to come from AC, other than aircraft leasing under the CPA, I would think the margins are too thin for a significant increase.
The longer this draws on the more likely a purchase of Jazz from AC is, probably in the 60/40 range now.
I know it’s business but how could AC use the non performance clause if they created the situation, they drove the wages down systematically over the last decade. Would they use that to negotiate a new reduced fleet, absolutely.
Now that Chorus is the largest regional leasing company in the world, that will be their focus and a a sale of Jazz with the leasing agreements will take the CPA risk off the books. AC could do whatever they need with that asset.
I have to admit though, I’m getting slightly nervous about the lack of action to address the publicly known issues, makes you wonder what the plan is. They’ve had us beat at every corner and it’s hard to think we could win a battle, beaten dog syndrome!

Bullshit on beaten dog syndrome. Pilot wages / WAWCON are mostly a pilot caused issue. The unions are run by pilots …

How many of you opted to stand up for substandard equipment, pay or colleagues who refused to fly in crap WX, overloaded or over duty ( or all of the above) ? How many of you broke minimums?

Likely some stood up but not many …. Some of you probably took the trip from a colleague who declined the trip to get ahead… this dynamic propagates upwards into the airline environment from 702/703.

Until we change ourselves the status quo will continue …

Until it is no Longer cool to be little bitches and accept crap conditions /blackball those who do the Stu’s quo will prevail

Sooo… Wanna address this crap ? Look in the mirror… companies just exploit the toxic backstabbing culture .

[cdnavater]

I think that 80 fins is where Jazz is headed sooner rather than later, irrespective of the 105 fleet guarantee to December 2025.

I could see 1100 flying positions for 2023. 1000 flying positions for 2024. And as few as 900 flying positions for 2025 and beyond. And that assumes no more drastic changes to the CPA (less than 80 fin fleet guarantee).

AC will order more A220’s and use those and the Rouge A319’s to repatriate more flying from Express. Express fleet will see fairly dramatic change. I see the 36 Q400’s staying, perhaps the 25 E175’s, but the 21 older CRJ900’s and some or all of the 15 CRJ200’s will leave. So, CRJ 900’s in YVR and E175 in YYZ/YUL. Q400’s still based both east and west.

A lot of this will depend on where AC goes with scope with ACPA. Right now AC cannot source any other vendor for the 55+ seat flying, and has restrictions on codeshare (UA North America cones to mind, including UA Express). AC either needs to feed itself at the hubs or find someone else to provide the feed if it is not AC Express.

Attrition to AC is predictable and manageable under a revised and reliable flow arrangement. Attrition elsewhere is now becoming a larger problem.

You cannot be the lowest paying operator and think that is sustainable. It used to be year 1-5. But with the pay changes at the operators that now attract Jazz pilots, it is all years of pay that need to be reset to 2023 realities.

In the US they accepted the new reality (pilot supply shortfall and numerous alternative employment opportunities) and reset pay in response (supply vs demand curve - wages MUST increase). Canada must do the same. Some operators have already moved in that direction. Jazz must do the same or suffer the consequences of non-performance under the terms of the CPA (as referenced in the Risk section of the AC 2022 MD&A.

As per usual, I can’t argue with your logic, would it be fair to say the top 700 of the current list are here until retirement and are mostly Captain? With 80 fins, could Jazz handle attrition due to retirement and AC flow. I would think so, they would really only need to replace 50ish Captains per year.
Any pay reset will have to come from AC, other than aircraft leasing under the CPA, I would think the margins are too thin for a significant increase.
The longer this draws on the more likely a purchase of Jazz from AC is, probably in the 60/40 range now.
I know it’s business but how could AC use the non performance clause if they created the situation, they drove the wages down systematically over the last decade. Would they use that to negotiate a new reduced fleet, absolutely.
Now that Chorus is the largest regional leasing company in the world, that will be their focus and a a sale of Jazz with the leasing agreements will take the CPA risk off the books. AC could do whatever they need with that asset.
I have to admit though, I’m getting slightly nervous about the lack of action to address the publicly known issues, makes you wonder what the plan is. They’ve had us beat at every corner and it’s hard to think we could win a battle, beaten dog syndrome!

Bullshit on beaten dog syndrome. Pilot wages / WAWCON are mostly a pilot caused issue. The unions are run by pilots …

How many of you opted to stand up for substandard equipment, pay or colleagues who refused to fly in crap WX, overloaded or over duty ( or all of the above) ? How many of you broke minimums?

Likely some stood up but not many …. Some of you probably took the trip from a colleague who declined the trip to get ahead… this dynamic propagates upwards into the airline environment from 702/703.

Until we change ourselves the status quo will continue …

Until it is no Longer cool to be little bitches and accept crap conditions /blackball those who do the Stu’s quo will prevail

Sooo… Wanna address this crap ? Look in the mirror… companies just exploit the toxic backstabbing culture .

Again, beaten dog syndrome.
You don’t know me and since this is an anonymous forum, I’ll forgive you.
I’ve been “laid off” and outright fired for doing what you said. First time I stood up to my employer was my first job at 250 hrs, he wanted me to go into a line of known thunderstorms with no contingency fuel, he told me that was what my 45 min fuel was for. I told him it was for unforeseen circumstances and that I was either a) delaying the flight or b) taking extra fuel and bumping freight.
His response was, I could find 10 pilots tomorrow who would do it, I did not and was let go a week later.
I never compromised on safety and eventually found a company that agreed with that but not without trial and error.
However in the airline world, we have stood up and if you knew the history of the Jazz/AC relationship over the last 13 years, you would understand the beaten dog effect I’m referring to. We won the battle at the time but lost the war shortly thereafter. The only leverage we have is due to circumstance, we have a no strike contract to 2035 and we were banking on the shortage to fix it, now we are here but after losing every battle for the last many years, it’s hard to think it could happen.
Also, and this is big, I’m 30 years in this business, every time it looks like a shortage is going to happen, something big reverses it, recession, failed company flooding the market with hundreds of pilots, Covid, etc.
Hard to wrap your mind around a positive, you know!

[McKinley]

As per usual, I can’t argue with your logic, would it be fair to say the top 700 of the current list are here until retirement and are mostly Captain? With 80 fins, could Jazz handle attrition due to retirement and AC flow. I would think so, they would really only need to replace 50ish Captains per year.
Any pay reset will have to come from AC, other than aircraft leasing under the CPA, I would think the margins are too thin for a significant increase.
The longer this draws on the more likely a purchase of Jazz from AC is, probably in the 60/40 range now.
I know it’s business but how could AC use the non performance clause if they created the situation, they drove the wages down systematically over the last decade. Would they use that to negotiate a new reduced fleet, absolutely.
Now that Chorus is the largest regional leasing company in the world, that will be their focus and a a sale of Jazz with the leasing agreements will take the CPA risk off the books. AC could do whatever they need with that asset.
I have to admit though, I’m getting slightly nervous about the lack of action to address the publicly known issues, makes you wonder what the plan is. They’ve had us beat at every corner and it’s hard to think we could win a battle, beaten dog syndrome!

Bullshit on beaten dog syndrome. Pilot wages / WAWCON are mostly a pilot caused issue. The unions are run by pilots …

How many of you opted to stand up for substandard equipment, pay or colleagues who refused to fly in crap WX, overloaded or over duty ( or all of the above) ? How many of you broke minimums?

Likely some stood up but not many …. Some of you probably took the trip from a colleague who declined the trip to get ahead… this dynamic propagates upwards into the airline environment from 702/703.

Until we change ourselves the status quo will continue …

Until it is no Longer cool to be little bitches and accept crap conditions /blackball those who do the Stu’s quo will prevail

Sooo… Wanna address this crap ? Look in the mirror… companies just exploit the toxic backstabbing culture .

Again, beaten dog syndrome.
You don’t know me and since this is an anonymous forum, I’ll forgive you.
I’ve been “laid off” and outright fired for doing what you said. First time I stood up to my employer was my first job at 250 hrs, he wanted me to go into a line of known thunderstorms with no contingency fuel, he told me that was what my 45 min fuel was for. I told him it was for unforeseen circumstances and that I was either a) delaying the flight or b) taking extra fuel and bumping freight.
His response was, I could find 10 pilots tomorrow who would do it, I did not and was let go a week later.
I never compromised on safety and eventually found a company that agreed with that but not without trial and error.
However in the airline world, we have stood up and if you knew the history of the Jazz/AC relationship over the last 13 years, you would understand the beaten dog effect I’m referring to. We won the battle at the time but lost the war shortly thereafter. The only leverage we have is due to circumstance, we have a no strike contract to 2035 and we were banking on the shortage to fix it, now we are here but after losing every battle for the last many years, it’s hard to think it could happen.
Also, and this is big, I’m 30 years in this business, every time it looks like a shortage is going to happen, something big reverses it, recession, failed company flooding the market with hundreds of pilots, Covid, etc.
Hard to wrap your mind around a positive, you know!

So, if you read my post you can discern that I wouldn’t be talking about you specifically. ( negatively that is)

I would have liked to work with you by the sounds of it and we’d have a similar mindset…

Pressure and bullshit from the employers was anticipated… what I couldn’t wrap my head around was how I was treated my by colleagues. - backstabbing little bitches ( no offense to women) They lacked the balls to stand up …

I’ve been in the industry for 17 years.. not as long as you but long enough.

I see the AC / Jazz crap a symptom of what I describe above. We’ll agree to disagree there. I can’t speak to the issues that exist at Jazz. I can speak to issues industry wide.

Far too many are willing to Bend over to the powers at be …

[CaptDukeNukem]

My answer to your survey is: already left Jazz.

Best decision I ever did. And it wasn’t a light one. Just getting away from the bitchy “Karen’s” that sucked the soul out of my life on every single flight probably extended my life expectancy by 5 years. I can’t say I’ve always gambled the right way in my career path, but for sure this one is a win.

[McKinley]

Bullshit on beaten dog syndrome. Pilot wages / WAWCON are mostly a pilot caused issue. The unions are run by pilots …

How many of you opted to stand up for substandard equipment, pay or colleagues who refused to fly in crap WX, overloaded or over duty ( or all of the above) ? How many of you broke minimums?

Likely some stood up but not many …. Some of you probably took the trip from a colleague who declined the trip to get ahead… this dynamic propagates upwards into the airline environment from 702/703.

Until we change ourselves the status quo will continue …

Until it is no Longer cool to be little bitches and accept crap conditions /blackball those who do the Stu’s quo will prevail

Sooo… Wanna address this crap ? Look in the mirror… companies just exploit the toxic backstabbing culture .

Again, beaten dog syndrome.
You don’t know me and since this is an anonymous forum, I’ll forgive you.
I’ve been “laid off” and outright fired for doing what you said. First time I stood up to my employer was my first job at 250 hrs, he wanted me to go into a line of known thunderstorms with no contingency fuel, he told me that was what my 45 min fuel was for. I told him it was for unforeseen circumstances and that I was either a) delaying the flight or b) taking extra fuel and bumping freight.
His response was, I could find 10 pilots tomorrow who would do it, I did not and was let go a week later.
I never compromised on safety and eventually found a company that agreed with that but not without trial and error.
However in the airline world, we have stood up and if you knew the history of the Jazz/AC relationship over the last 13 years, you would understand the beaten dog effect I’m referring to. We won the battle at the time but lost the war shortly thereafter. The only leverage we have is due to circumstance, we have a no strike contract to 2035 and we were banking on the shortage to fix it, now we are here but after losing every battle for the last many years, it’s hard to think it could happen.
Also, and this is big, I’m 30 years in this business, every time it looks like a shortage is going to happen, something big reverses it, recession, failed company flooding the market with hundreds of pilots, Covid, etc.
Hard to wrap your mind around a positive, you know!

So, if you read my post you can discern that I wouldn’t be talking about you specifically. ( negatively that is)

I would have liked to work with you by the sounds of it and we’d have a similar mindset…

Pressure and bullshit from the employers was anticipated… what I couldn’t wrap my head around was how I was treated my by colleagues. - backstabbing little bitches ( no offense to women) They lacked the balls to stand up …

I’ve been in the industry for 17 years.. not as long as you but long enough.

I see the AC / Jazz crap a symptom of what I describe above. We’ll agree to disagree there. I can’t speak to the issues that exist at Jazz. I can speak to issues industry wide.

Far too many are willing to Bend over to the powers at be …

Until it’s no longer “cool “ to : break minimums, fly with broken equipment ( I doubt these things happen at Jazz), fly with less than legal reserves, fly in weather that exceeds pilot / aircraft limitations, fly overweight, spend 3 years on the ramp- carrying two logbooks … one for ramp time and one for flight time, not back peers to go stand up to pushy employers :

Nothing at 705 :

Poor wages, poor contracts etc will prevail.

Accept poor labor contracts, poor

[McKinley]

Bullshit on beaten dog syndrome. Pilot wages / WAWCON are mostly a pilot caused issue. The unions are run by pilots …

How many of you opted to stand up for substandard equipment, pay or colleagues who refused to fly in crap WX, overloaded or over duty ( or all of the above) ? How many of you broke minimums?

Likely some stood up but not many …. Some of you probably took the trip from a colleague who declined the trip to get ahead… this dynamic propagates upwards into the airline environment from 702/703.

Until we change ourselves the status quo will continue …

Until it is no Longer cool to be little bitches and accept crap conditions /blackball those who do the Stu’s quo will prevail

Sooo… Wanna address this crap ? Look in the mirror… companies just exploit the toxic backstabbing culture .

Again, beaten dog syndrome.
You don’t know me and since this is an anonymous forum, I’ll forgive you.
I’ve been “laid off” and outright fired for doing what you said. First time I stood up to my employer was my first job at 250 hrs, he wanted me to go into a line of known thunderstorms with no contingency fuel, he told me that was what my 45 min fuel was for. I told him it was for unforeseen circumstances and that I was either a) delaying the flight or b) taking extra fuel and bumping freight.
His response was, I could find 10 pilots tomorrow who would do it, I did not and was let go a week later.
I never compromised on safety and eventually found a company that agreed with that but not without trial and error.
However in the airline world, we have stood up and if you knew the history of the Jazz/AC relationship over the last 13 years, you would understand the beaten dog effect I’m referring to. We won the battle at the time but lost the war shortly thereafter. The only leverage we have is due to circumstance, we have a no strike contract to 2035 and we were banking on the shortage to fix it, now we are here but after losing every battle for the last many years, it’s hard to think it could happen.
Also, and this is big, I’m 30 years in this business, every time it looks like a shortage is going to happen, something big reverses it, recession, failed company flooding the market with hundreds of pilots, Covid, etc.
Hard to wrap your mind around a positive, you know!

So, if you read my post you can discern that I wouldn’t be talking about you specifically. ( negatively that is)

I would have liked to work with you by the sounds of it and we’d have a similar mindset…

Pressure and bullshit from the employers was anticipated… what I couldn’t wrap my head around was how I was treated my by colleagues. - backstabbing little bitches ( no offense to women) They lacked the balls to stand up …

I’ve been in the industry for 17 years.. not as long as you but long enough.

I see the AC / Jazz crap a symptom of what I describe above. We’ll agree to disagree there. I can’t speak to the issues that exist at Jazz. I can speak to issues industry wide.

Far too many are willing to Bend over to the powers at be …

Until it’s no longer “cool “ to : break minimums, fly with broken equipment ( I doubt these things happen at Jazz), fly with less than legal reserves, fly in weather that exceeds pilot / aircraft limitations, fly overweight, spend 3 years on the ramp- carrying two logbooks … one for ramp time and one for flight time, not back peers to go stand up to pushy employers :

Nothing at 705 :

Poor wages, poor contracts etc will prevail.

Pilots need to unify and develop self respect ( and balls)

[canadian_aviator_4]

I can only imagine the next step with no action to create meaningful improvements will involve further hour reductions and possible base closures, as Jazz continues to bleed more and more pilots, and struggles to keep flights staffed.

[smooth]

If you got PFOed from AC and you are on E jets and living in GTA. Porter could be a place to be!

EMB CA making 90K at Jazz vs 150K at Porter

Porter New Payscale.jpg (458.5 KiB) Viewed 1404 times