A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

[digits_]

The fact is that to the airline every cookie-cutter pilot is identical both by sight (that's why they make you wear uniforms, after all) and skill, and so what you get paid depends only on how many other equally capable people are queuing up for your job.

Is this different for Canadian doctors though?

From talking to (admittedly a fairly limited amount of) healthcare workers, it seems that small remote towns don't care who wants the job, as long as *someone* with the right qualifications shows up. And big cities have a long list of docs wanting to work there, which greatly takes away their leverage to ask for more money.

Doesn't the province set the salaries based on amount of visits, years on the job and area of specialization?

Basically, in Canada, wouldn't a top doc make the same as a doc who just scrapes by and avoids killing healthy patients but otherwise has barely any idea what he's doing?

Not that it matters to determine pilot wages, but it's an interesting comparison in some ways.

[photofly]

It’s different in many ways: entry to medicine is highly competitive on academic merit, and doctors are promoted to head of department, and higher positions, on merit.

Secondly there is a scale of merit among doctors: when you need a procedure you only go to the “as long as he’s breathing doc” if you have no choice. Doctors have individual relationships with their patients and pilots don’t.

[digits_]

You could say that promotion to training cpt, chief pilot and other management positions in aviation are also based on merit. So that might be a bit similar.

Secondly there is a scale of merit among doctors: when you need a procedure you only go to the “as long as he’s breathing doc” if you have no choice. Doctors have individual relationships with their patients and pilots don’t.

Do the best doctors make more than the 'as long as he's breathing' doc'?

[photofly]

Yes. And bad doctors regularly get shuffled out of the profession. Don’t ask me how I know.

The point isn’t that pilots would get paid as well as doctors if pilots were more competitive. The point is that better pilots would get paid more than worse pilots if their employment was more competitive. The same might apply to doctors too, as it does in the US.

When better pilots get paid more than worse pilots, pilots can take some individual responsibility for their earnings, which they can’t at present.

[rookiepilot]

I hesitate to post this, as I don't see the relevance of doctors' wages in a discussion about pilots' wages, as though doctors and pilots are competing for limited pieces of the same pie or their respective values to society are somehow importantly and inextricably linked. I don't see either as being the case. However, being that some (strangely) insist on making the comparison, it would seem that the average annual wage for a doctor in Canada is $388k: https://invested.mdm.ca/md-articles/phy ... ary-canada

Depending on which data set you believe, the average pilot wage in Canada is $80k-$120k. Suffice to say, pilots in Canada could realize a 30% increase in salaries and still fall well below doctors' wages, if that is important to you.

Your data conclusions are misleading. These are self employed practitioners, and that is gross clinic revenue, not personal income.

From the site you referenced, the following data is presented.

Average annual Family Physician practice gross revenue in Canada is $331,000.

From this, per the site, is deducted overhead — rent, office staff, other things common to any business, set at $150,000.

This leaves not average income of $388K, but $180,000.

In Ontario, an expensive place to live and operate a business, its $150,000. For how many years of Med School?

Referencing any doctors income above a family doctor is not even worthy of discussing, the years and years of training to become a surgeon doesn’t compare to even an experienced ATPL.

[rookiepilot]

From talking to (admittedly a fairly limited amount of) healthcare workers, it seems that small remote towns don't care who wants the job, as long as *someone* with the right qualifications shows up. And big cities have a long list of docs wanting to work there, which greatly takes away their leverage to ask for more money.

A long list of doctors wanting to work in Canadian cities?
I think not. Not here.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.6653832

Nearly 2 million people in Ontario don’t have a family doctor.

[photofly]

Again, the amount that doctors make or don't make is entirely irrelevant to pilots. They're not doctors. The way other jobs are structured so that individuals can earn more, or less, within that job, might be of interest.

[rookiepilot]

Again, the amount that doctors make or don't make is entirely irrelevant to pilots. They're not doctors. The way other jobs are structured so that individuals can earn more, or less, within that job, might be of interest.

Agreed.

But if people are going to post data, to make a point, they should at least be accurate about it.

Meter readers make 20 bucks an hour, BTW.

https://ca.indeed.com/career/meter-reader/salaries

[Bede]

Yes. And bad doctors regularly get shuffled out of the profession. Don’t ask me how I know.

You used to be a doctor and now you're a pilot?

[digits_]

Yes. And bad doctors regularly get shuffled out of the profession. Don’t ask me how I know.

You used to be a doctor and now you're a pilot?

He used to be a bad doctor and now he's a pilot?

[goldeneagle]

You could say that promotion to training cpt, chief pilot and other management positions in aviation are also based on merit. So that might be a bit similar.

Not even close. How many years does one have to spend in school to be eligible for the promotion to training cpt ?

Do the best doctors make more than the 'as long as he's breathing' doc'?

By a long shot.

Sees to me you are of the impression all docs are paid the same, but that is far from the state of reality. I am not well informed on how the mechanics of billing work in all the provinces, but I do know the BC system. Some doctors have their own practise, so they see patients in an office, and bill the BC Medical System directly. Others work in a clinic, typically owned and operated by another doctor. They may be paid based on billing, or they may be on a salary, each will negotiate their own pay rates. Then there are docs employed directly by a hospital, they could be an ER doc, or they could be a specialist of some type, ie an anesthesiologist is typically employed by the hospital in which they provide services. I know folks in all of these situations, thru my wife's work we know a lot of docs, she is part of the hiring team for our local hospital. I also know another gal that doesn't want the hassles of running a clinic with employees, and doesn't want to do 'same old thing' all the time working in somebody else's clinic, so she offers services as a locum. She could be home working for a local clinic one week, then the following week up in a small town in the northern stretches of the province for a week while the local folks there are on vacation.

As far as that 'as long as he is breathing' doc, it's usually not hard to find those either. Most of them will typically not be handling patients on a regular basis, instead they will be working out of a clinic that does things like medicals and drug testing for industry. Easiest way to find one of them, put a posting on AvCanada asking 'where is there a good doc for a medical'. Find one that doesn't have a regular practise, just does medicals, and you have found your 'as long as he is breating' doc.

[digits_]

You could say that promotion to training cpt, chief pilot and other management positions in aviation are also based on merit. So that might be a bit similar.

Not even close. How many years does one have to spend in school to be eligible for the promotion to training cpt ?

Do the best doctors make more than the 'as long as he's breathing' doc'?

By a long shot.

Sees to me you are of the impression all docs are paid the same, but that is far from the state of reality. I am not well informed on how the mechanics of billing work in all the provinces, but I do know the BC system. Some doctors have their own practise, so they see patients in an office, and bill the BC Medical System directly. Others work in a clinic, typically owned and operated by another doctor. They may be paid based on billing, or they may be on a salary, each will negotiate their own pay rates. Then there are docs employed directly by a hospital, they could be an ER doc, or they could be a specialist of some type, ie an anesthesiologist is typically employed by the hospital in which they provide services. I know folks in all of these situations, thru my wife's work we know a lot of docs, she is part of the hiring team for our local hospital. I also know another gal that doesn't want the hassles of running a clinic with employees, and doesn't want to do 'same old thing' all the time working in somebody else's clinic, so she offers services as a locum. She could be home working for a local clinic one week, then the following week up in a small town in the northern stretches of the province for a week while the local folks there are on vacation.

As far as that 'as long as he is breathing' doc, it's usually not hard to find those either. Most of them will typically not be handling patients on a regular basis, instead they will be working out of a clinic that does things like medicals and drug testing for industry. Easiest way to find one of them, put a posting on AvCanada asking 'where is there a good doc for a medical'. Find one that doesn't have a regular practise, just does medicals, and you have found your 'as long as he is breating' doc.

Thanks for the info!

[Bede]

Physicians and surgeons working on the FFS (fee for service) make more money when they're either faster or less thorough in their procedures. For example, we have an orthopedic surgeon in town who just does hip replacements. He does them arthroscopically and apparently it takes him less than an hour to replace a hip joint. I've heard that he makes around $1M but he picks up extra call. I've heard that my family doctor does all right (but lost a bunch of money in bad investment decisions). His appointments take around 2 minutes, which, from what I hear, doesn't meet the standard of practice, but, whatever, I get next day service. (I may change my tune when I'm actually concerned about my health.)

I'm told that having good people skills and going into administration is a pay-cut. Yes they give you a bit of extra money, but it doesn't make up for the lack of billable procedures that you could be doing.

TL;dr: being a better doctor doesn't result in more money.

[photofly]

Physicians and surgeons working on the FFS (fee for service) make more money when they're either faster or less thorough in their procedures.
TL;dr: being a better doctor doesn't result in more money.

It does pretty much everywhere in the world, except possibly Ontario which is FFS.

Once again, it's not important that you have to be a *better* doctor to make more money; the point is that as a doctor your individual efforts count for something, and your pay reflects that. US Doctors are (essentially) paid based on how good their marketing efforts are - but that will do. If you're a doctor and you're not earning enough, it's "your fault". If you're an airline pilot and you're not earning enough, it's the airline's fault.

As I said earlier, it wouldn't make any difference if pilots were graded (and paid) based on the crisp starchiness of their shirts or the softness of their landings, as long as it's something they control. Date of seniority isn't such a thing.

[digits_]

Physicians and surgeons working on the FFS (fee for service) make more money when they're either faster or less thorough in their procedures.
TL;dr: being a better doctor doesn't result in more money.

It does pretty much everywhere in the world, except possibly Ontario which is FFS.

Once again, it's not important that you have to be a *better* doctor to make more money; the point is that as a doctor your individual efforts count for something, and your pay reflects that. US Doctors are (essentially) paid based on how good their marketing efforts are - but that will do. If you're a doctor and you're not earning enough, it's "your fault". If you're an airline pilot and you're not earning enough, it's the airline's fault.

As I said earlier, it wouldn't make any difference if pilots were graded (and paid) based on the crisp starchiness of their shirts or the softness of their landings, as long as it's something they control. Date of seniority isn't such a thing.

If you agree that it's not necessarily the 'better' doctor who makes more money, then why would you even want such a system in an airline environment?

Why does it have to be something they control, if the issue which they control would be irrelevant to the main performance of their duties (complete a flight safely and legally)?

[Bede]

I can't say I 100% agree with photofly, but I do think that he's on the right track. One of the issues with our seniority system is that you are tied to your airline. Any gains you make are because of collective bargaining which has a mixed track record. If a "good" pilot had the opportunity to leave for another airline and make more money, or advance to captain earlier, this would place upward pressure on wages. Unfortunately, such a system works only in an industry where a "good" employee can be more productive (ie generate more revenue). Flying is not such an industry.

[digits_]

I can't say I 100% agree with photofly, but I do think that he's on the right track. One of the issues with our seniority system is that you are tied to your airline. Any gains you make are because of collective bargaining which has a mixed track record. If a "good" pilot had the opportunity to leave for another airline and make more money, or advance to captain earlier, this would place upward pressure on wages. Unfortunately, such a system works only in an industry where a "good" employee can be more productive (ie generate more revenue). Flying is not such an industry.

Yes, I agree completely with this post.

[photofly]

If you agree that it's not necessarily the 'better' doctor who makes more money, then why would you even want such a system in an airline environment?

Why does it have to be something they control, if the issue which they control would be irrelevant to the main performance of their duties (complete a flight safely and legally)?

I think it might be a way to decrease dissatisfaction.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but pilots as a whole are *really* whiny, moany and bitchy about their salaries and working conditions. You are all, to a quite stunning degree, obsessed by comparing pay scales, conditions, who's doing better, who's doing worse, which group of pilots are being screwed over, and which group of pilots is doing the screwing over. If you don't believe me, take a step back and read some of the discussions on this board. I understand it's important stuff, but overall it's really quite a stand-out feature of the job, and to a much greater extent than people who work as, for example, engineers, lawyers, surveyors, dentists, meter-readers (yes!), refuse collectors, and doctors, pretty much anything I can think of. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the actual pay or conditions which are - and are always going to be - worse than some jobs, and better than many others.

So you have to ask, why is this? And I think that one of the equally stand-out features of being an airline pilot is that individual performance and efforts go totally and completely unrecognized. The only way to get to any significant increase in pay and status is to watch the years roll on. I think that's pretty de-humanizing, actually.

I have this feeling that if an airline pilot had some individual control and input into their pay, it might be more satisfying. A (very) long time ago I held a consulting position - basic pay (extremely generous) plus a generous bonus. The bonus was based not on how well I served my customers, which I was expected to do at the highest level, regardless - but on, for example, how quickly I turned in my paperwork, whether I wrote technical reports for my colleagues, and other stuff. I didn't always get 100% of the available bonus but at least I felt in control. If I was really good at the side-stuff, then I could look for promotion, project management and so forth. It was open to me.

Maybe you could think of something pilots could do, of value, that could be rewarded, and could be the basis of promotion and advancement. Because if the only thing that's going to get you a more senior position and more at your company is waiting patiently for old age, that's pretty lousy.

[rookiepilot]

If you agree that it's not necessarily the 'better' doctor who makes more money, then why would you even want such a system in an airline environment?

Why does it have to be something they control, if the issue which they control would be irrelevant to the main performance of their duties (complete a flight safely and legally)?

I think it might be a way to decrease dissatisfaction.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but pilots as a whole are *really* whiny, moany and bitchy about their salaries and working conditions. You are all, to a quite stunning degree, obsessed by comparing pay scales, conditions, who's doing better, who's doing worse, which group of pilots are being screwed over, and which group of pilots is doing the screwing over. If you don't believe me, take a step back and read some of the discussions on this board. I understand it's important stuff, but overall it's really quite a stand-out feature of the job, and to a much greater extent than people who work as, for example, engineers, lawyers, surveyors, dentists, meter-readers (yes!), refuse collectors, and doctors, pretty much anything I can think of. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the actual pay or conditions which are - and are always going to be - worse than some jobs, and better than many others.

So you have to ask, why is this? And I think that one of the equally stand-out features of being an airline pilot is that individual performance and efforts go totally and completely unrecognized. The only way to get to any significant increase in pay and status is to watch the years roll on. I think that's pretty de-humanizing, actually.

I have this feeling that if an airline pilot had some individual control and input into their pay, it might be more satisfying. A (very) long time ago I held a consulting position - basic pay (extremely generous) plus a generous bonus. The bonus was based not on how well I served my customers, which I was expected to do at the highest level, regardless - but on, for example, how quickly I turned in my paperwork, whether I wrote technical reports for my colleagues, and other stuff. I didn't always get 100% of the available bonus but at least I felt in control.

Maybe you could think of something pilots could do, of value, that could be rewarded, and could be the basis of promotion and advancement. Because if the only thing that's going to get you a more senior position at your company is waiting patiently for old age, that's pretty lousy.

This post is a big reason why I never once considered flying for an airline. (plus the repetitive nature of it is boring to me)

[JHR]

If you agree that it's not necessarily the 'better' doctor who makes more money, then why would you even want such a system in an airline environment?

Why does it have to be something they control, if the issue which they control would be irrelevant to the main performance of their duties (complete a flight safely and legally)?

I think it might be a way to decrease dissatisfaction.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but pilots as a whole are *really* whiny, moany and bitchy about their salaries and working conditions. You are all, to a quite stunning degree, obsessed by comparing pay scales, conditions, who's doing better, who's doing worse, which group of pilots are being screwed over, and which group of pilots is doing the screwing over. If you don't believe me, take a step back and read some of the discussions on this board. I understand it's important stuff, but overall it's really quite a stand-out feature of the job, and to a much greater extent than people who work as, for example, engineers, lawyers, surveyors, dentists, meter-readers (yes!), refuse collectors, and doctors, pretty much anything I can think of. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the actual pay or conditions which are - and are always going to be - worse than some jobs, and better than many others.

So you have to ask, why is this? And I think that one of the equally stand-out features of being an airline pilot is that individual performance and efforts go totally and completely unrecognized. The only way to get to any significant increase in pay and status is to watch the years roll on. I think that's pretty de-humanizing, actually.

I have this feeling that if an airline pilot had some individual control and input into their pay, it might be more satisfying. A (very) long time ago I held a consulting position - basic pay (extremely generous) plus a generous bonus. The bonus was based not on how well I served my customers, which I was expected to do at the highest level, regardless - but on, for example, how quickly I turned in my paperwork, whether I wrote technical reports for my colleagues, and other stuff. I didn't always get 100% of the available bonus but at least I felt in control.

Maybe you could think of something pilots could do, of value, that could be rewarded, and could be the basis of promotion and advancement. Because if the only thing that's going to get you a more senior position at your company is waiting patiently for old age, that's pretty lousy.

This post is a big reason why I never once considered flying for an airline. (plus the repetitive nature of it is boring to me)

I think your attitude would have sunk your career