Latest MEC Bulletin

[swervin]

Any opinions on the latest ACPA and ALPA MEC memo's that came out today?

[Sharklasers]

Collaboration is good as long as the ACPA reps don’t forget which pilot group they work for now.

[rudder]

Collaboration is good as long as the ACPA reps don’t forget which pilot group they work for now.

There is a multilateral solution to be reached if each of the (4) groups is willing to go there.

The employer(s) need to acknowledge that there will be a pay reset.

JAZ MEC need to accept that Jazz is going to get smaller sooner than planned, irrespective of the CPA.

ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)

Hopefully the meeting that has already happened was cordial but also direct. Status quo is not sustainable nor is in the best interest of the parties. Acknowledge that fact and then move forward. Whipsaw worked when there was a surplus of qualified pilots to harvest. That is no longer the case.

[ZBBYLW]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

[rudder]

Here is what Jazz is up against:

viewtopic.php?t=181783

Continue to pay less than the other E-jet operator and watch the exodus continue.

p.s. and now Porter has a higher staring CA pay (smaller aircraft) than Flair, Sunwing, Swoop, Lynx, Morningstar, and Cargojet (I believe).

[rudder]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

You mean other than the 2 or 3 times over the past 25 years when that was not the case?

[Aviationanalysis234]

I believe the new Porter pilot scale is now also higher than WJ

[Aviationanalysis234]

I believe this pay is now also higher than WJ

[Outlaw58]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

If you are already on property, this doesn't affect you. If you are at Jazz waiting to go to Air Canada, this works on your favor.

Therefore this sentiment can only come from someone that is neither at Jazz, nor at AC thus has no say in this discussion.

Your opinion will be considered accordingly.

58

[iflygirl_92]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

and this attitude is WHY we are in this situation guys can't see the beyond their own personal benefits.

PILOTS ARE IDOITS!!!!

[iflygirl_92]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

and this attitude is WHY we are in this situation guys can't see the beyond their own personal benefits.

PILOTS ARE IDIOTS!!!!

[flyingcanuck]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

If you are already on property, this doesn't affect you. If you are at Jazz waiting to go to Air Canada, this works on your favor.

Therefore this sentiment can only come from someone that is neither at Jazz, nor at AC thus has no say in this discussion.

Your opinion will be considered accordingly.

58

Burn.

Agreed, crabs in the bucket mentality. "I had to start from the bottom so you should too".

[Cavalier44]

Outlaw58 and flyingcanuck, you are exhibiting a very typical Jazz pilot mentality - "if you're already on the property at Air Canada, this doesn't affect you" - without considering all of the factors at play.

In case you haven't been following, deferred seniority dates cannot be implemented at AC without the consent of ACPA, i.e., the Air Canada pilot group.

The last time the company tried to implement deferred seniority dates, they packaged it with a host of other concessions in an LOA that would have further eroded our working conditions. This LOA was soundly rejected by the pilot group.

Ask yourself, why should Air Canada pilots take concessions in order to give Jazz pilots deferred seniority dates? A further question - if you want to come work at AC, is deferred seniority worth it to come to a company where the pilot group has made concessions in order to allow that to happen? Concessions that will negatively impact your working conditions for the remainder of your career? I don't think anyone is objecting to deferred seniority on principal alone, because as you say, it doesn't affect those who are on property already one way or another. But the company should act in good faith and incentivize the pilot group to vote in favour of a new LOA that includes deferred seniority for Jazz pilots.

As the old adage goes, "show us the money". Stop trying to sneak concessionary language into every proposal that goes out to the pilot group and actually give us something without asking for anything in return - only then will we see deferred seniority being implemented. Air Canada pilots are in the process of defining a new relationship between themselves in the company that does not simply result in the pilot group voting "yes" to every half-baked proposal that goes out with a few extra dollars attached, but packaged with concessionary language that does much more harm than good to the contract in the long run.

[cdnavater]

Outlaw58 and flyingcanuck, you are exhibiting a very typical Jazz pilot mentality - "if you're already on the property at Air Canada, this doesn't affect you" - without considering all of the factors at play.

In case you haven't been following, deferred seniority dates cannot be implemented at AC without the consent of ACPA, i.e., the Air Canada pilot group.

The last time the company tried to implement deferred seniority dates, they packaged it with a host of other concessions in an LOA that would have further eroded our working conditions. This LOA was soundly rejected by the pilot group.

Ask yourself, why should Air Canada pilots take concessions in order to give Jazz pilots deferred seniority dates? A further question - if you want to come work at AC, is deferred seniority worth it to come to a company where the pilot group has made concessions in order to allow that to happen? Concessions that will negatively impact your working conditions for the remainder of your career? I don't think anyone is objecting to deferred seniority on principal alone, because as you say, it doesn't affect those who are on property already one way or another. But the company should act in good faith and incentivize the pilot group to vote in favour of a new LOA that includes deferred seniority for Jazz pilots.

As the old adage goes, "show us the money". Stop trying to sneak concessionary language into every proposal that goes out to the pilot group and actually give us something without asking for anything in return - only then will we see deferred seniority being implemented. Air Canada pilots are in the process of defining a new relationship between themselves in the company that does not simply result in the pilot group voting "yes" to every half-baked proposal that goes out with a few extra dollars attached, but packaged with concessionary language that does much more harm than good to the contract in the long run.

I think you missed Rudder’s initial point, this is in relation to the four party meeting that took place recently and in his mind some parts that should be included in any agreement put forward.
Nobody suggested anything come for free but ZBBYLW, essentially says under no circumstance should anyone not on property get a deferred number. No other way to interpret that!
The email we received from our MEC says a pilot wage reset is needed based on how far we are from our US counterparts, in my mind a deferred number will benefit the AC pilots more than Jazz pilots, by that I mean you will likely get a bigger slice of the increase pie. The deferred number will no doubt be more enticing to Jazz(junior) pilots. Doesn’t mean shit to me, nor do I want an AC number, I want more money now so hopefully I can still retire at 60, but at the current rate 63 is more likely and 65 is still possible. That depresses me, of course if I don’t move to a more expensive province like my wife wants to, I could still do 60, but that’s a me problem.

[Canpilot7]

How much of the current AC union representation is from jazz? I've got no dog in the fight, but if I was in their shoes I'd be worried if my union wasn't getting absolutely maximum value out of the seniority numbers (which obviously carries a lot of value). If it's a matter of showing some unity more than anything else (and still expecting massive compensation for anyone doing anything involving seniority lists) it's probably a good thing. Helping out friends at an old employer though would obviously be bad and isn't out of the realm of possibility

[Cavalier44]

I think you missed Rudder’s initial point, this is in relation to the four party meeting that took place recently and in his mind some parts that should be included in any agreement put forward.
Nobody suggested anything come for free but ZBBYLW, essentially says under no circumstance should anyone not on property get a deferred number. No other way to interpret that!
The email we received from our MEC says a pilot wage reset is needed based on how far we are from our US counterparts, in my mind a deferred number will benefit the AC pilots more than Jazz pilots, by that I mean you will likely get a bigger slice of the increase pie. The deferred number will no doubt be more enticing to Jazz(junior) pilots. Doesn’t mean shit to me, nor do I want an AC number, I want more money now so hopefully I can still retire at 60, but at the current rate 63 is more likely and 65 is still possible. That depresses me, of course if I don’t move to a more expensive province like my wife wants to, I could still do 60, but that’s a me problem.

Not at all, I read Rudder's comment and I tend to agree with most of what he's saying.

However, I take issue with the following statement: "ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)".

What ACPA needs to do is represent the wishes and requirements of the Air Canada pilot group. If they believe that they will able to secure a better deal for Air Canada pilots in the form of a revised LOU, and part of that deal includes giving deferred seniority to the Jazz pilot group, then so be it. However, ACPA doesn't need to do anything vis-a-vis the Jazz pilot group - it's not their duty to represent them. It is the job of the respective companies (Air Canada and Jazz) to ensure their airlines are able to be staffed at the required level, not the job of the respective unions.

As far as "no deferred seniority for anyone under any circumstance", I think that's an extreme viewpoint that very few people share in reality. If the four parties are able to come together and propose a deal that is a net benefit to AC pilots, free of concessions, then there is no reason why it shouldn't pass. However, there are many people who are disillusioned by the company's constant attempts to ram through concessionary language any time they have the opportunity to do so; thus, the lack of enthusiasm for any deal that appears to favour Jazz pilots while leaving AC pilots at the wayside is more than understandable.

[cdnavater]

How much of the current AC union representation is from jazz? I've got no dog in the fight, but if I was in their shoes I'd be worried if my union wasn't getting absolutely maximum value out of the seniority numbers (which obviously carries a lot of value). If it's a matter of showing some unity more than anything else (and still expecting massive compensation for anyone doing anything involving seniority lists) it's probably a good thing. Helping out friends at an old employer though would obviously be bad and isn't out of the realm of possibility

I don’t see the latter happening, they already turned down a shit sandwich that included deferred seniority to Jazz pilots, anything with concessions is a nonstarter at either company.
If Jazz doesn’t do something NOW!, they will likely be parking the 175s very soon, any trainer on the E175 with less than 8 years in, ie; post 2015, is likely looking or already in the process for Porter. Same for the line pilots.

[cdnavater]

I think you missed Rudder’s initial point, this is in relation to the four party meeting that took place recently and in his mind some parts that should be included in any agreement put forward.
Nobody suggested anything come for free but ZBBYLW, essentially says under no circumstance should anyone not on property get a deferred number. No other way to interpret that!
The email we received from our MEC says a pilot wage reset is needed based on how far we are from our US counterparts, in my mind a deferred number will benefit the AC pilots more than Jazz pilots, by that I mean you will likely get a bigger slice of the increase pie. The deferred number will no doubt be more enticing to Jazz(junior) pilots. Doesn’t mean shit to me, nor do I want an AC number, I want more money now so hopefully I can still retire at 60, but at the current rate 63 is more likely and 65 is still possible. That depresses me, of course if I don’t move to a more expensive province like my wife wants to, I could still do 60, but that’s a me problem.

Not at all, I read Rudder's comment and I tend to agree with most of what he's saying.

However, I take issue with the following statement: "ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)".

What ACPA needs to do is represent the wishes and requirements of the Air Canada pilot group. If they believe that they will able to secure a better deal for Air Canada pilots in the form of a revised LOU, and part of that deal includes giving deferred seniority to the Jazz pilot group, then so be it. However, ACPA doesn't need to do anything vis-a-vis the Jazz pilot group - it's not their duty to represent them. It is the job of the respective companies (Air Canada and Jazz) to ensure their airlines are able to be staffed at the required level, not the job of the respective unions.

As far as "no deferred seniority for anyone under any circumstance", I think that's an extreme viewpoint that very few people share in reality. If the four parties are able to come together and propose a deal that is a net benefit to AC pilots, free of concessions, then there is no reason why it shouldn't pass. However, there are many people who are disillusioned by the company's constant attempts to ram through concessionary language any time they have the opportunity to do so; thus, the lack of enthusiasm for any deal that appears to favour Jazz pilots while leaving AC pilots at the wayside is more than understandable.

Agreed! I don’t believe that was Rudder’s intent, just poorly phrased, he has a pretty good grasp of the inner workings at both companies. He can obviously speak for himself, so I’ll just leave it at that.

[JoeyBarton]

One of the biggest threat to Jazz, and in turn AC, is if Porter opens up a YUL base. A few ex sky YUL 175 drivers made the switch, but were all east costers with no particular ties to the QC province, the Qcers all stayed. Now if Porter opens up a YUL base now all the YUL base 175 skippers will apply to double their salary. The 175 operation would implode, left with no trainers or checkers... The ex CP of the 175 is now the CP for the E2 ops. Jazz and AC should be aware of that big threat. And the only way to resolve that would be a big money increase, now!
Baffles me that in Fev 2023, nothing yet is done to prevent a summer metldown...
May is around the corner...
Something needs to be done now!

[bradleyscotts]

Collaboration is good as long as the ACPA reps don’t forget which pilot group they work for now.

ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)

It is not the job of the ACPA MEC to help AC and Jazz mgmnt attract pilots to Jazz. The overall compensation as well as the scheduling rules is what Jazz and AC mgmnt need to improve if they want to crew their airplanes.

Perhaps one of the worst, if not the worst, thing ALPA has done in Canada is agree to a flow agreement for their pilots to AC. It has been used to put downward pressure on wages not only at Jazz but throughout the whole industry. Wanna a job at AC? well your hours and experience don't matter, we are hiring 80% of our pilots from Jazz. Already have thousands of hours flying jets? don't matter, you have to compete with thousands of applicants that form the 20% OTS.Come to Jazz take a 50% paycut and you pretty much have a guaranteed job at AC with a 90% success rate.

The flow agreement should be treated like the travel benefits we all get. Nice to have if you want to to travel but not part of the compensation.