New pay scales

[Shre97]

Hello everyone.

I see that Porter Airlines minimum TT is 1000hrs , but I heard that in the past they used to hire FO much lower than that. I have 750TT, is there any chance I can get an interview or is there any regionals still hiring 750TT FO with Multi IFR + IATRA.

Thank you

[braaap Braap]

Hello everyone.

I see that Porter Airlines minimum TT is 1000hrs , but I heard that in the past they used to hire FO much lower than that. I have 750TT, is there any chance I can get an interview or is there any regionals still hiring 750TT FO with Multi IFR + IATRA.

Thank you

This isn't really the thread/place for this question.

Apply and find out. Porter is currently well staffed on the low experience side of things so preference is being given to people with higher time. Either way apply and see what happens. Joining the Destination Porter program (if you qualify) can help your case.

[8895]

What are everyone’s thoughts after the pilot calls regarding the new pay scales?

Personally I’m very disappointed seeing the company drop itself to the 65th percentile. I can’t see anyone on the Q side of the operation being very happy right now.

[cjp]

What are everyone’s thoughts after the pilot calls regarding the new pay scales?

Personally I’m very disappointed seeing the company drop itself to the 65th percentile. I can’t see anyone on the Q side of the operation being very happy right now.

My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.

J.G / P.M emphasized that every single pilot on a Dash today will flow to the E2 if they so wish keeping the single seniority list.

It was acknowledged by management there is more work to do regarding WAWCON, but it's a great first step the same month of launch that they are addressing concerns. I'm feeling positive once our competitors address their payscales, within 12 months we will benefit from those gains as well - for sure on the E2, potentially on the Q.

As a side note, there was a highlight as to the relative revenue generation each fleet provides, hence the disparity in pay between the two types. It's frustrating that the operation that built Porter up to this point is not garnering the attention it deserves - but that's business. Focusing resources on a monster expenditure is vital for it's success.

[8895]

What are everyone’s thoughts after the pilot calls regarding the new pay scales?

Personally I’m very disappointed seeing the company drop itself to the 65th percentile. I can’t see anyone on the Q side of the operation being very happy right now.

My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.

J.G / P.M emphasized that every single pilot on a Dash today will flow to the E2 if they so wish keeping the single seniority list.

It was acknowledged by management there is more work to do regarding WAWCON, but it's a great first step the same month of launch that they are addressing concerns. I'm feeling positive once our competitors address their payscales, within 12 months we will benefit from those gains as well - for sure on the E2, potentially on the Q.

As a side note, there was a highlight as to the relative revenue generation each fleet provides, hence the disparity in pay between the two types. It's frustrating that the operation that built Porter up to this point is not garnering the attention it deserves - but that's business. Focusing resources on a monster expenditure is vital for it's success.

I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.

I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.

[cjp]

I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.

I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.

I guess the most direct course of action is using your feet to send a message - it works in both union and non-union environments. While it does have the effect of raising salaries for those that fill your seat, it puts the individual in a position where they may not see the benefits of their move for a few years, particularly if they are going to AC (I'm only discussing the starting pay, nothing more). The word for it is martyr - and I, myself have been that martyr where I've used my feet to show my disagreement, only to see someone else benefit. I'm ok with that though - it's always work out for both them and me.

I hope everyone that feels this didn't work out the way they anticipated speaks to the FOAG to make it clear that they (management) fell short in this instance, and may need to revise their benchmark. Whether they are able to make any adjustments is anybodies guess.

I don't see it ever going flush with the the E2, like Jazz. I think the idea is that eventually external hiring on the E2 will end, and a strong internal flow will develop. It will mean the experience level on the island will take a hit. IMHO, the Q may become a training ground for new hires and if this strong industry growth can continue to fly against the winds of recession - I imagine within 2 to 3 years we'll see experience bottom out at 250/1500 hr pilots bombing into and out of the island - that is until we get to full capacity on the E2.

[braaap Braap]

What are everyone’s thoughts after the pilot calls regarding the new pay scales?

Personally I’m very disappointed seeing the company drop itself to the 65th percentile. I can’t see anyone on the Q side of the operation being very happy right now.

My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.

J.G / P.M emphasized that every single pilot on a Dash today will flow to the E2 if they so wish keeping the single seniority list.

It was acknowledged by management there is more work to do regarding WAWCON, but it's a great first step the same month of launch that they are addressing concerns. I'm feeling positive once our competitors address their payscales, within 12 months we will benefit from those gains as well - for sure on the E2, potentially on the Q.

As a side note, there was a highlight as to the relative revenue generation each fleet provides, hence the disparity in pay between the two types. It's frustrating that the operation that built Porter up to this point is not garnering the attention it deserves - but that's business. Focusing resources on a monster expenditure is vital for it's success.

I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.

I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.

The 65th percentile is definitely better than 50th. It means that rather then being exactly in the middle we are higher than 65 percent of the group.

If Dash CAs continue to leave for AC rather then push for 1000mpic and get on the E2 then there's no amount of money that would make them stay. One would be giving up a once in a career opportunity at great seniority, and taking a 30k paycut vs a 70k pay bump (100k difference). Staffing on the Q will certainly be interesting this summer. I'm sure the Open Time will allow one to fill one's boots while working towards the 1000mpic.

The salary benchmark was a calculated and strategic play. They're not going to pay anymore than they think they have to to attract and retain. If they did they wouldn't be as competitive. If it doesn't work they'll make another play. I think the way it went down shows that management will do what it takes to keep Porter an attractive option (they can't afford not to).

FO's giving up their position for a couple extra thousand is extremely short sighted in my opinion. I get that living in Toronto on these sorts of wages is hard (been there done that). But rather than putting energy and effort into breaking this fleet lock or going somewhere else for a ~15k raise (and giving up the seniority one's built), focus on getting the time on type/TT needed to upgrade and get that 37k raise.

[CaptDukeNukem]

My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.

J.G / P.M emphasized that every single pilot on a Dash today will flow to the E2 if they so wish keeping the single seniority list.

It was acknowledged by management there is more work to do regarding WAWCON, but it's a great first step the same month of launch that they are addressing concerns. I'm feeling positive once our competitors address their payscales, within 12 months we will benefit from those gains as well - for sure on the E2, potentially on the Q.

As a side note, there was a highlight as to the relative revenue generation each fleet provides, hence the disparity in pay between the two types. It's frustrating that the operation that built Porter up to this point is not garnering the attention it deserves - but that's business. Focusing resources on a monster expenditure is vital for it's success.

I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.

I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.

The 65th percentile is definitely better than 50th. It means that rather then being exactly in the middle we are higher than 65 percent of the group.

If Dash CAs continue to leave for AC rather then push for 1000mpic and get on the E2 then there's no amount of money that would make them stay. One would be giving up a once in a career opportunity at great seniority, and taking a 30k paycut vs a 70k pay bump (100k difference). Staffing on the Q will certainly be interesting this summer. I'm sure the Open Time will allow one to fill one's boots while working towards the 1000mpic.

The salary benchmark was a calculated and strategic play. They're not going to pay anymore than they think they have to to attract and retain. If they did they wouldn't be as competitive. If it doesn't work they'll make another play. I think the way it went down shows that management will do what it takes to keep Porter an attractive option (they can't afford not to).

FO's giving up their position for a couple extra thousand is extremely short sighted in my opinion. I get that living in Toronto on these sorts of wages is hard (been there done that). But rather than putting energy and effort into breaking this fleet lock or going somewhere else for a ~15k raise (and giving up the seniority one's built), focus on getting the time on type/TT needed to upgrade and get that 37k raise.

100 percent in agreement. The benchmarking went up. Like you said, the Q wages didn’t really move due to the benchmarking being fairly close across the board. What has been moving right now are captain wages on jet aircraft.

And yes, you can throw money at people all day long. But if they see “red like a bull” (a right seat AC job with a pay cut) then it’s basically a done deal. Some people will sell their souls to work at “the NHL of airlines” lol.

Personally, I feel bad for E1 drivers at jazz close to AC hire or in the process… imagine you’re at captain e1 at jazz holding out for AC spot making almost half of what porter is paying and you get PFOd from AC..

[cjp]

I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.

I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.

The 65th percentile is definitely better than 50th. It means that rather then being exactly in the middle we are higher than 65 percent of the group.

If Dash CAs continue to leave for AC rather then push for 1000mpic and get on the E2 then there's no amount of money that would make them stay. One would be giving up a once in a career opportunity at great seniority, and taking a 30k paycut vs a 70k pay bump (100k difference). Staffing on the Q will certainly be interesting this summer. I'm sure the Open Time will allow one to fill one's boots while working towards the 1000mpic.

The salary benchmark was a calculated and strategic play. They're not going to pay anymore than they think they have to to attract and retain. If they did they wouldn't be as competitive. If it doesn't work they'll make another play. I think the way it went down shows that management will do what it takes to keep Porter an attractive option (they can't afford not to).

FO's giving up their position for a couple extra thousand is extremely short sighted in my opinion. I get that living in Toronto on these sorts of wages is hard (been there done that). But rather than putting energy and effort into breaking this fleet lock or going somewhere else for a ~15k raise (and giving up the seniority one's built), focus on getting the time on type/TT needed to upgrade and get that 37k raise.

Personally, I feel bad for E1 drivers at jazz close to AC hire or in the process… imagine you’re at captain e1 at jazz holding out for AC spot making almost half of what porter is paying and you get PFOd from AC..

The only logical move at that crossroads is come to Porter. Why leave that money on the table right?

[Timetoflyagain]

..and there’s a lot of Jazz E1 and Q drivers living in YUL that just might with today’s new Montreal base announcement.

[averageatbest]

My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.

If you're referring to Encore being the only Q operator making a major stride, you should know that they have yet to pay out.

[rudder]

..and there’s a lot of Jazz E1 and Q drivers living in YUL that just might with today’s new Montreal base announcement.

Opening when?

[Timetoflyagain]

Montreal crew base..unsure. St. Hubert terminal “fall of 2024” but official base itself could be earlier. If you’re interested, and can stomach commuting for 12-18 months, grab a seniority number now and be golden when it opens.

[cjp]

My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.

If you're referring to Encore being the only Q operator making a major stride, you should know that they have yet to pay out.

Yikes, that's brutal. Westjet is falling apart at the seams.

[RoAF-Mig21]

..and there’s a lot of Jazz E1 and Q drivers living in YUL that just might with today’s new Montreal base announcement.

Opening when?

I don't know how many Jazz guys would jump ship to Porter. Here are some things that come to mind:

1. Getting a "direct hire" job on the E2, be it as captain or F/O may be a temporary thing. Eventually the (senior Porter) Q400 captains and first officers that have been with the company for a while will want to move up and will jump que in term of seniority. It may very well be that you get the spot only to find yourself flying a Q400 next year.

2. F/Os are less likely to go there, because the pay is not much better, especially if you have to start back at year 1. Also, most F/Os have AC in their sights as their next job.

3. Porter right now is "promissing the world", but how stable are they? What's the guarantee? They're not yet a stable airline and this venture may prove to be too much if AC and Westjet start a pricing war with them.

Then again... I don't have a crystal ball and what I said above is but a guess.

[braaap Braap]

..and there’s a lot of Jazz E1 and Q drivers living in YUL that just might with today’s new Montreal base announcement.

Opening when?

I don't know how many Jazz guys would jump ship to Porter. Here are some things that come to mind:

1. Getting a "direct hire" job on the E2, be it as captain or F/O may be a temporary thing. Eventually the (senior Porter) Q400 captains and first officers that have been with the company for a while will want to move up and will jump que in term of seniority. It may very well be that you get the spot only to find yourself flying a Q400 next year.

People won't be bumped from their seat. Any pilots transitioning over will go ahead of them on the seniority list but they are only taking new spots that become available with the expansion. with the 50 jets they'll need another 450-500 pilots. So new hires are currently ahead of the crest of the wave.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Opening when?

I don't know how many Jazz guys would jump ship to Porter. Here are some things that come to mind:

1. Getting a "direct hire" job on the E2, be it as captain or F/O may be a temporary thing. Eventually the (senior Porter) Q400 captains and first officers that have been with the company for a while will want to move up and will jump que in term of seniority. It may very well be that you get the spot only to find yourself flying a Q400 next year.

People won't be bumped from their seat. Any pilots transitioning over will go ahead of them on the seniority list but they are only taking new spots that become available with the expansion. with the 50 jets they'll need another 450-500 pilots. So new hires are currently ahead of the crest of the wave.

I suppose you're right, given the planned growth. We'll see how much of those planes will actually be delivered. This ties into my 3rd point. How successful will they be against Air Canada and Westjet? Timei will tell. You do make a good point though.

[thepoors]

I think the idea is that eventually external hiring on the E2 will end, and a strong internal flow will develop.

Buddy, do you have any idea how many pilots you're going to need for the E2??

No way external hiring will ever end. And the way things are going, there won't be much internal to pull from because no one other than 200hr wonders would take that Q job...

[Crewbunk]

This ties into my 3rd point. How successful will they be against Air Canada and Westjet? Timei will tell.

By Porter’s own admission, since their first flight, they have never generated an operating profit. Never.

They have survived on investor capital and real estate transactions. There’s only so much left to use up before things fall apart …. and flying jets will make that happen quicker.

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

[flyinhigh]

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

Like Flair, Lynx, or Jetlines