New pay scales

[rudder]

Please provide an example of any major in the country that has a 250 hr pilot in the right seat. I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops.

Jazz.

[flying4dollars]

E2 captain pay is good but I still feel like there is room for improvement on the FO side.

At 63K per annum, it’s pretty descent.

I did think the DH8 should have come up though. Folks who were on the fence about transferring over previously will be bailing from the Dash program in a New York minute now, leaving that program severely deprived.

You think $63k for an Embraer FO is decent?

That is concerning...

[schnitzel2k3]

E2 captain pay is good but I still feel like there is room for improvement on the FO side.

Likely be more pressure if AC adjusts theirs. It seems a consistent average amongst Canadian airlines that FOs are 'only' worth between 55-70k. I'd love to see AC FO's, especially for the talent they are still acquiring starting closer to the US mainlines, 91-95k then onto formula.

For now though, well done Porter, 4 months into a brand new AOC, literally 17 days since revenue day zero, and already raising the industry bar.

eh, raising the bar would be upping the Q pay quite a bit. This is because they need more guys on the EMB.

Agreed Q scales could've used a little more love. The E195 raise looks strategic for finding DECs as the FO salaries haven't really seen movement much either. There's always room for improvement, but so far it's impressive for the size of the aircraft, mission and recency of commencing ops.

[schnitzel2k3]

E2 captain pay is good but I still feel like there is room for improvement on the FO side.

At 63K per annum, it’s pretty descent.

I did think the DH8 should have come up though. Folks who were on the fence about transferring over previously will be bailing from the Dash program in a New York minute now, leaving that program severely deprived.

You think $63k for an Embraer FO is decent?

That is concerning...

The guys at AC think 56k is just right for a 777 driver. 63 for a 136k lb plane is relatively better,

[JHR]

At 63K per annum, it’s pretty descent.

I did think the DH8 should have come up though. Folks who were on the fence about transferring over previously will be bailing from the Dash program in a New York minute now, leaving that program severely deprived.

You think $63k for an Embraer FO is decent?

That is concerning...

The guys at AC think 56k is just right for a 777 driver. 63 for a 136k lb plane is relatively better,

BINGO!

[khedrei]

I was going by the posted minimums. I didnt know they had a separate intake. Thanks for the info.

Whats astounding to me is how shortsighted these companies are. They need captains so pay them more... sure. But they overlook the fact that if they can't attract FOs then they won't have anyone to promote. Surely the pool of qualified DECs will run dry at some point and they will have wasted so much time when they could have been employing FOs who could have the qualifications to be upgraded reasonably quickly but arent interested in commuting or driving into the city for less money than they could make at Home Depot.

FO + a year or two of experience = possible captain.
Unlivable wage = no FOs.
No FOs = 0% possible captain.

Simple math.

[schnitzel2k3]

I was going by the posted minimums. I didnt know they had a separate intake. Thanks for the info.

Whats astounding to me is how shortsighted these companies are. They need captains so pay them more... sure. But they overlook the fact that if they can't attract FOs then they won't have anyone to promote. Surely the pool of qualified DECs will run dry at some point and they will have wasted so much time when they could have been employing FOs who could have the qualifications to be upgraded reasonably quickly but arent interested in commuting or driving into the city for less money than they could make at Home Depot.

FO + a year or two of experience = possible captain.
Unlivable wage = no FOs.
No FOs = 0% possible captain.

Simple math.

FOs aren't in as short supply these days as qualified well rounded Captains. In a startup, you need a balance, but it's more important to lean towards Captains as they can occupy both seats and usually have the shortest time to becoming a copy machine for the operation.

You put an ad out in corporate for an FO on a jet, you get 10-15 resumes of guys with varying personalities and experience. Same ad for Captain, depending on the jet, usually only garners about a 1/3 of the FO applicant number.

Guarantee this is scaling up to Porter et al regarding current staffing woes.

[braaap Braap]

I was going by the posted minimums. I didnt know they had a separate intake. Thanks for the info.

Whats astounding to me is how shortsighted these companies are. They need captains so pay them more... sure. But they overlook the fact that if they can't attract FOs then they won't have anyone to promote. Surely the pool of qualified DECs will run dry at some point and they will have wasted so much time when they could have been employing FOs who could have the qualifications to be upgraded reasonably quickly but arent interested in commuting or driving into the city for less money than they could make at Home Depot.

FO + a year or two of experience = possible captain.
Unlivable wage = no FOs.
No FOs = 0% possible captain.

Simple math.

Except they arnt having troubles filling FO classes. And why would they invest more (pay and training) to people who dont even want to upgrade/stick around. So they boost the starting captain pay and try and poach from the other airlines.

[rudder]

FO frozen on type for 2 years (except upgrade)

1st year $75k (you are on probation)
2nd year $90k
3rd year 66.67% of corresponding CA rate (unless it is less than $90k)

ACP DEC should be starting at Year 5 CA rate (frozen rate until tenure exceeds 5 years). This is what Virgin America did to attract A320 ACP at startup.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

What about the rest of Porter's conditions?

Min days off per month?
min daily credit? trip and duty rigs?
How is scheduling done?

[khedrei]

I was going by the posted minimums. I didnt know they had a separate intake. Thanks for the info.

Whats astounding to me is how shortsighted these companies are. They need captains so pay them more... sure. But they overlook the fact that if they can't attract FOs then they won't have anyone to promote. Surely the pool of qualified DECs will run dry at some point and they will have wasted so much time when they could have been employing FOs who could have the qualifications to be upgraded reasonably quickly but arent interested in commuting or driving into the city for less money than they could make at Home Depot.

FO + a year or two of experience = possible captain.
Unlivable wage = no FOs.
No FOs = 0% possible captain.

Simple math.

Except they arnt having troubles filling FO classes. And why would they invest more (pay and training) to people who dont even want to upgrade/stick around. So they boost the starting captain pay and try and poach from the other airlines.

Perhaps I didn't explain my point very well. I meant that people who are "close" to having the qualifications to be upgraded to captain might be more interested in applying to one of these FO jobs if they paid more. These could include people who are working for a smaller operation as a captain flying a 1900 or Metro or even a high time FO working at one of these jobs. They might be upgradable soon after hire, but won't come to these 705's due to bad FO pay and would rather stay where they are. Or, people who might have old qualifications and are working in different fields ( I don't know how many people are in that catagory). Mainly, I mean "potential" captains who don't quite meet the DEC requirments but will soon after hire, won't be interested due to the low FO wages. The short of it, if they want good captains, pay their FO's better now so they can get them as captains in the future.

You say they don't have trouble filling FO classes, perhaps that's true. I have no idea. But it does seem that there are more jobs posted on these pilot jobs websites than ever before. You also say these FO's won't stick around... I say that's the same thing as "can't fill them". I would argue its worse if they are hiring people who leave after a year or two especially for these operators that paid all this money to type them. There is a reason they don't stick around. My last job at the railway paid 65-85k starting wage depending on how hard you wanted to work, required ZERO education or experience and this was 20 years ago. I made 100k my first year. Add 30% to those numbers today. They couldn't keep people because the working conditions sucked. I just find it crazy that these companies that struggle to find talent can't figure it out and solve it.

[canadianpilot101]

I asked to provide an example of a MAJOR in canada that hires 250 hour CPLs.

Wasaya and Perimeter are not majors. Unless your definition is different than mine.

Again, I could be mistaken... That's why I asked for an example.

"I'd say most nothern carriers dont even do that in turboprops." no, but I was responding to this. I was correcting you.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I hope they run benchmarking every 6 months. Good for all airlines…….Whenever them management folks decide to talk to their pilot groups.

[330heavy]

Good on Porter! And, I'll say kudos to those who've bargined increases this year. Is it enough? No, but we are trending in the right direction, and there's 2 major players that now need to set the bar.

[totalflyer]

What about the rest of Porter's conditions?

Min days off per month?
min daily credit? trip and duty rigs?
How is scheduling done?

12 GDO's
4hrs min credit
Schedule is seniority bid...

[NTPilot]

How about the airlines listed in the main page of this forum. Large 705 operators. Seems to make sense.

Sunning doesn't hire 250 hr pilots.

Jazz lists their hiring minimums at 500 hours. I think it was 800 a couple weeks ago.

Perhaps I'm missing something but I still don't see it.

That is very incorrect, from your series of posts I guess you just entered Canadian aviation industry!

Jazz hires 250 hours cadets
Sunwing hires lots 250 hours cadets
You might not consider Wasaya or Perimeter or summit a major airline but they are very big operations that requires skillful pilots and yes they hire 250 hours for right seat!

If you can’t find the information then maybe you are not looking at the right place

[8895]

This is the start of a revolution!!! Remember that this is only a 132 seat airplane. Just think about what the conversion would be for a 737 or an A320.

Wouldn’t go that far bud lol

Remember Porter “benchmarks” their salaries by selecting companies and essentially averaging out the salaries to establish their own. Someone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the companies involved with the E2 benchmarking process are transat, flair, and sunwing. So I’m assuming the salaries reflect having a leg up on sunwing and flair thanks to transat pulling the numbers up from those 2.

If Porter really cared about competing with AC and WJ for the pilot supply in the same way as competing for their share of the industry marketshare then they should probably include AT LEAST WJ in the list of benchmarked companies, but that’s a whole other point to get into lol.

Also remember that the E2 ops literally just started rev flights this month so every captain on property is on year one pay, so I’d only really look at the first half of the scale, it doesn’t cost the company anything to offer year 10 captain pay to zero pilots right now.

On the other hand…. It WOULD cost the company money to pay their Q drivers more, last I checked the last 2 upgrade classes were cancelled due to no candidates, and I doubt increasing year one pay by 6k is going to change that trend lol. Q FO’s hardly got a bump, but hey at least it’s not a pay decrease like they got coming out of the pandemic I guess?

If I was on the WJ MEC I’d be leveraging this as much as possible. It’s that negotiation along with ACPA’s (hopefully soon to be ALPA as well) that have the best chance at gaining us some ground in this industry for once.

You seem to have missed the fact that Porter's scale is now higher than WJ's 737 scale. Including them in the average would actually reduce Porter's new pay scales.

Yes but I think you’re missing the fact that the WJ pay scale is going to be going up shortly (unless management there decides to go nuclear) so in the long run it would be beneficial to have them benchmarked. Don’t be so short sighted looking at these things.

Also just throwing it out there that a first year SAAB FO at pasco is being paid more than a first year porter Q FO who’s flying a larger aircraft and doesn’t have the option to live in a cheaper city like Calgary (perhaps YQT could be an option but my understanding is that the base is small). Their Q operation is gonna be running into some big problems real soon.

[tango308]

If I was a DH4 CA at porter I would be seriously pissed right now that my E2 colleagues are almost making twice as much.

[schnitzel2k3]

If I was a DH4 CA at porter I would be seriously pissed right now that my E2 colleagues are almost making twice as much.

How do the scales compare to similar equipment elsewhere? What type of experience is Porter getting to fly the Dash versus the E2?

Looks again like the focus is getting butts into E2 left seats, leaving a massive vaccuum on the Dash side.

Bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out.

[Turboprops]

Saying they require a minimum of 250 hours is different than putting a 250 hour pilot in the right seat of a 1900. Im not saying it hasn't ever happened. I assume you know someone personally that got hired with 250 hours? Otherwise its hear say.

Also, putting ONE 250 hour pilot in the right seat doesn't mean they make a habit of it. Using the term "continue" seems to imply its happening often and everywhere.

Northern 703/4 have been putting 250 CPL pilots in the right seat for a very long time now, I personally know a bunch.