Are Air Canada pilots the lowest paid in the world?

[Tigger]

Lol...

AC has:

24 x 777s
16 x A330s
37 x 787s

For a total of 77 widebodies, not including freighters

Westjet has what - 5?

You should be giving your head a shake for thinking that Westjet is the reason your wages are down

Does Westjet blame PAL? Or Buffalo Joe? I mean WJ does fly to Yellowknife. Pretty much the same thing right?

Even Calin post FOS made the remark how AC pilots were the top quartile in North America

Now AC pilots are the bottom 0%

Canadian regionals & ULCCs pay their new hires more

Lol...keep blaming WJ

Well, like I said — keep dreaming. But you’re delusional.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Lol...

AC has:

24 x 777s
16 x A330s
37 x 787s

For a total of 77 widebodies, not including freighters

Westjet has what - 5?

You should be giving your head a shake for thinking that Westjet is the reason your wages are down

Does Westjet blame PAL? Or Buffalo Joe? I mean WJ does fly to Yellowknife. Pretty much the same thing right?

Even Calin post FOS made the remark how AC pilots were the top quartile in North America

Now AC pilots are the bottom 0%

Canadian regionals & ULCCs pay their new hires more

Lol...keep blaming WJ

Well, like I said — keep dreaming. But you’re delusional.

Your delusional if you think AC pilots will accept anything less than a global airline contract

A true industry leading contract

[thepoors]

The fact that this question can even be floated around is enough to demonstrate what a joke AC pilot compensation is.

The fact that the answer is yes, new-hire WB FOs are the lowest paid pilots sitting in the right seat of a 777/87 pretty much anywhere is downright shameful.

The personal attacks from the small d*ck losers who think they're better than everyone is sadly par for the course on this forum. They get triggered when anyone dare insinuate that Big Red ain't all it's cracked up to be. And yet these are the same morons who have taken nothing but concessions for decades. They are the we "walked 10 miles uphill to school both ways" crowd. Sad people who have only degraded this profession because they have no backbone when it counts. They prefer to be miserable and have everyone suffer rather than improving conditions at the company they worship and hang their oh so delicate (but somehow still overinflated) egos on.

[Fanblade]

Yeah, I guess you’re right; we’ll just demand the company pay us what would effectively be 4 times what our nearest competitor in this country makes out of the goodness of their hearts, because why wouldn’t they?

I’d like to make one meeeeelion dollars a year, but give your head a shake. Until our competitors come ANYWHERE remotely close to our existing WAWCON it simply ain’t gonna happen no matter what we do. Dream on, though.

Air Canada’s competition is from all over the world. It is not restricted to domestic. Restricting comparisons in the way you have is a choice to always be paid less. I would like to emphasize the word choice.

When AC competes over the Atlantic. Do you buy into the same logic? When AC runs a transborder route head to head with Delta. Do you buy into the same logic?

Even our previous CEO recognized our comparators are a competitive environment vs being restricted by borders when he stated a contract 10 years ago would “ preserve AC pilot compensation in the top quartile of the North American industry”. He chose the word “ preserve” not me. He very clearly stated, his opinion was that our norm is about 25% from the top of the North American market. I very cursory look at past collective agreements ( after currency exchange) bolster this opinion. Our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation also comes in right about the same 25% from the top mark.

The only entity claiming we can’t compare outside our border was old ACPA. And this is rather recent. It only started mid way through a locked in 10 year agreement when it became obvious how bad a decision it was to lock our CCAA/FOS losses into a 10 year deal at 2%. It has become the excuse to try and explain away performance.

But it won’t and is not working. Even a pilot can figure out that, for competition purposes, our wages are comparable to the flight deck operating the same route, regardless of border.

[Cough Syrup]

See what happens with the new union...

ACPA to ALPA change seems a forgone conclusion now.

[RRJetPilot]

But now the CEO is an accountant. Nothing good will come of this. Will need to stand our ground. It will be a long difficult road ahead.

[Crewbunk]

But now the CEO is an accountant. Nothing good will come of this. Will need to stand our ground. It will be a long difficult road ahead.

The current CEO is “manned” by one from the LRD, as required by the constitution. The new CEO will be announced in about a month. If it’s who is rumoured, only good will come if it.

[BTD]

Could be wrong but I think the reference is to the corporate CEO not the union.

[Crewbunk]

Could be wrong but I think the reference is to the corporate CEO not the union.

Ah. That makes more sense. Nothing wrong with an accountant running the airline, IMO. But, don’t forget M. Rovenescu’s background was finance too.

[rudder]

Could be wrong but I think the reference is to the corporate CEO not the union.

Ah. That makes more sense. Nothing wrong with an accountant running the airline, IMO. But, don’t forget M. Rovenescu’s background was finance too.

CR’s background was law. Specifically M&A. I would guess that beyond the basic understanding of airline financials, he left the high level stuff to the VP Finance (who is now the CEO).

CR’s strengths were situational awareness, leverage, contingency planning, and most of all - understanding how to steer others to where he wanted to go using whatever means necessary.

[Crewbunk]

Again, I don’t see a financial background as a bad thing. If anything, an “accountant” can see (unemotionally) how a very small percent of the total operating costs can be attributed to pilot’s wages. And, (unemotionally) an accountant can see how pilots can singularly affect the bottom line.

I have never looked into M. Rovenescu’s background. My first recollection of him was quite a while ago, when he was working under Robert Milton. (Before he left the first time). His messages to the pilots always seemed to be financial in nature. Specifically dealing with Jazz.

[Transition9er2]

But now the CEO is an accountant. Nothing good will come of this. Will need to stand our ground. It will be a long difficult road ahead.

The current CEO is “manned” by one from the LRD, as required by the constitution. The new CEO will be announced in about a month. If it’s who is rumoured, only good will come if it.

I’m guessing you’re referring to the ACPA CEO… who’s rumoured to be announced in a month? Please tell me it’s NOT the acting CEO.

[noreasterYHZ]

But now the CEO is an accountant. Nothing good will come of this. Will need to stand our ground. It will be a long difficult road ahead.

The current CEO is “manned” by one from the LRD, as required by the constitution. The new CEO will be announced in about a month. If it’s who is rumoured, only good will come if it.

I’m guessing you’re referring to the ACPA CEO… who’s rumoured to be announced in a month? Please tell me it’s NOT the acting CEO.

AC pilots should be under the ALPA banner thankfully by this summer

Under ALPA there won't be a CEO so...

[TWAlum]

I think being under ALPA, and not having a CEO would be a good thing…

[newcomer]

Voted! Delta pilots get a 34% raise

[lee123]

Delta has a few new hire 20 something year old 67 captains that make more per hour than the #1 pilot at AC (440 CAD after this contract signing). Just let that sink in...

[Crewbunk]

Delta has a few new hire 20 something year old 67 captains that make more per hour than the #1 pilot at AC (440 CAD after this contract signing). Just let that sink in...

This doesn’t have to “sink in”. The US/Canada disparity of wages is something of which most Air Canada pilots have been aware for a long time.

The real issue, is how did we get there? And …. why do these contacts continue to be ratified? And another point, why does Air Canada have absolutely no difficulty in filling new hire classes to the tune of two classes a month?

It seems, everyone needs to be educated. Not just the pilots themselves, but ACPA (who for 20 years have promoted these wages) as well. Air Canada is aware and I am sure they are clapping their hands together with glee.

[lee123]

Delta has a few new hire 20 something year old 67 captains that make more per hour than the #1 pilot at AC (440 CAD after this contract signing). Just let that sink in...

This doesn’t have to “sink in”. The US/Canada disparity of wages is something of which most Air Canada pilots have been aware for a long time.

The real issue, is how did we get there? And …. why do these contacts continue to be ratified? And another point, why does Air Canada have absolutely no difficulty in filling new hire classes to the tune of two classes a month?

It seems, everyone needs to be educated. Not just the pilots themselves, but ACPA (who for 20 years have promoted these wages) as well. Air Canada is aware and I am sure they are clapping their hands together with glee.

That's the thing. Is everyone educated? I find that a lot of the senior guys we fly with have no idea or clue of what is going on in our industry. Just look at the ones that know nothing about YOS for furloughs.

[Crewbunk]

That's the thing. Is everyone educated? I find that a lot of the senior guys we fly with have no idea or clue of what is going on in our industry. Just look at the ones that know nothing about YOS for furloughs.

That’s funny, being a senior guy, I was going to say the opposite. It’s the bottom of the list that need educating. But, I don’t say that in a way to be insulting. Over the last five years, or so, I have encountered a few sentiments from the younger pilots.

One, being “I pay ACPA $1500 a year to represent me, I don’t have the time to look at all the issues, if they say to vote yes, I will”.

Another is, “I’m new here, still on probation, I don’t want to rock the boat by voting no”.

Or one that drives me nuts, “Air Canada says we’ll shut down if we vote no, they wouldn’t lie would they?”

While I patiently try to tell them of union issues over the last 35 years, I have to be careful. To dwell on it borders on workplace harassment. So I just shrug and talk about girls and trucks.

You mention YOS for furloughs. Let me tell you about the past. Air Canada, Canadian, Wardair, Nordair, CPAir, PWA and Transair all furloughed pilots. Some are still at AC. None received recognition for furlough time. (Other than the offer of buying back pension time, now irrelevant).

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done for the 600 Covid furloughs, it just never has. Perhaps the younger crowd was not aware.

[Fanblade]

That's the thing. Is everyone educated? I find that a lot of the senior guys we fly with have no idea or clue of what is going on in our industry. Just look at the ones that know nothing about YOS for furloughs.

That’s funny, being a senior guy, I was going to say the opposite. It’s the bottom of the list that need educating. But, I don’t say that in a way to be insulting. Over the last five years, or so, I have encountered a few sentiments from the younger pilots.

One, being “I pay ACPA $1500 a year to represent me, I don’t have the time to look at all the issues, if they say to vote yes, I will”.

Another is, “I’m new here, still on probation, I don’t want to rock the boat by voting no”.

Or one that drives me nuts, “Air Canada says we’ll shut down if we vote no, they wouldn’t lie would they?”

While I patiently try to tell them of union issues over the last 35 years, I have to be careful. To dwell on it borders on workplace harassment. So I just shrug and talk about girls and trucks.

You mention YOS for furloughs. Let me tell you about the past. Air Canada, Canadian, Wardair, Nordair, CPAir, PWA and Transair all furloughed pilots. Some are still at AC. None received recognition for furlough time. (Other than the offer of buying back pension time, now irrelevant).

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done for the 600 Covid furloughs, it just never has. Perhaps the younger crowd was not aware.

I think there is a big difference between these furloughs and past ones. That being CEWS. There was no need to throw everyone onto EI with less benefit and a shorter time frame. Our CEO did it to get Trudeau’s attention and if failed miserably. Every other airline, including the regional AC partially owns, received CEWS and with it YOS. We are the outlier in this issue. Our most vulnerable members are the outlier. Our furloughed members are at a disadvantage , not just in pay, but in any future merger as well.