First and second Year Pay

[IOV747]

Hi guys,

As many I have my application in, but I am wondering how much is the pay. I know they have the flat pay, and that year one is 57k and that it goes up 10k per year. Wondering if anyone could share the net pay for year one and two. Im just curious to know how much u end up taking home after perdiems and all the discounts. Have been looking for it but can’t find it.

Thanks!

[schnitzel2k3]

Hi guys,

As many I have my application in, but I am wondering how much is the pay. I know they have the flat pay, and that year one is 57k and that it goes up 10k per year. Wondering if anyone could share the net pay for year one and two. Im just curious to know how much u end up taking home after perdiems and all the discounts. Have been looking for it but can’t find it.

Thanks!

Tons of subthreads discuss this in depth within this section. Search function is your friend. Net pay is fairly easy to calculate using a Canadian Income Tax app. Per diems are not a strong suit of AC. I guess neither is starting pay.

The general consensus from everyone I know there - first 4 years is an absolute slog - but you're trained early to utter the phrase 'Living the dream' while questing for retirement.

[Fanblade]

Hi guys,

As many I have my application in, but I am wondering how much is the pay. I know they have the flat pay, and that year one is 57k and that it goes up 10k per year. Wondering if anyone could share the net pay for year one and two. Im just curious to know how much u end up taking home after perdiems and all the discounts. Have been looking for it but can’t find it.

Thanks!

Because you stated two years you raised a flag. You need to take this job eyes wide open.

Nope even wider than that.

As of April 2023.

I have added in the blocking window as some have been caught off guard when the company uses it. Currently I would say the likelihood of a block month below the high 70’s is low. But I don’t know what the future holds. A prolonged time at 60 hour block months have been used in the past and when it does many people on flat pay take second jobs.


Year one hourly pay. $65/hour. Blocking window 60-80 hours. 46,800 - 62,400 per year.

Year two hourly pay. $71/hour. 51,120 - 68,160 per year.

Year three hourly pay. $81/hour. 58,320 - 77,760 per year.

Year four hourly pay. $91/hour. 65,520 - 87,360 per year.

Throw those numbers into here. https://www.eytaxcalculators.com/en/202 ... lator.html

Commuter gotcha. Remember you will pay payroll tax based on the province you are based. At tax time it is calculated based on where you live. If you are based in YYZ but live in YYT or YUL for example you will owe a couple thousand at tax time. In fact If you are based in YVR or YYZ and live outside this provinces you will probably owe at tax time.

Next gotcha. Air Canada withholds pay until the 17th of the following month. You get an advance on the first day of the month. To put this in perspective let’s say you start Jun 1, 2023.

On Jun 1, you will get an advance of $2500 (2250 after withholding tax.)
On Jun 17 you will get nothing because that is paying out for May.
On July 1 you will get an advance of $2500 (2250 after withholding tax)
On July 17 you will get what is owing you for June minus the June 1 advance.

The gotcha people aren’t prepared for is that missing pay check on June 17. An unwelcome surprise when money will be tight anyway.

Next issue Vacation.

It works like the pay system. You have to accrue the vacation before you can bid and then use it. You will go a minimum of a full year without vacation time.

Unpredictability of meal money. Our system is based on being at work during a meal period. Unlike other systems that pay a certain amount per hour. A month of narrow body day turns where you are just at work over lunch might only pay $300 - 400. A full month of overseas might pay $1500. Sitting on reserve and not working pays nothing.

Next is commuting.

Air Canada does not have a commuting policy. AC has a make it to work or you get a letter on your file policy. This is becoming increasing problematic as low initial pay pretty much forces people to live away from two of the three main bases. The amount of people commuting has been rapidly increasing. So you have an increasing amount of people competing for limited seats.

Added after re reading my post. It’s pretty bleak looking isn’t it.

What I just described to you is the results of a failed union over decades. I am optimistic that is changing and that in the future things will get better. There is an ALPA union drive in progress and an upcoming open contract. However nothing is likely to change without labor action and that can be be quite unpredictable at best and particularly so in Canukistan. Just as the downward trend took years to get to this point. In all likelihood it will take years to correct. Even our peers south of the border, as successful as they have been, took more than a decade post bankruptcy in the mid 2000’s, to recover back to where they are today. We haven’t even started that process yet. It’s just in the very initial stages.

[Kosiw]

Moral of the story is, avoid getting on this merry-go-round and the grass is always greener etc...

[decouple]

Is there not a minimum number of hours paid out a month? For example I believe at WestJet you are guaranteed 77.5 hours of pay. Thanks!

[Dash.Trash]

Year one hourly pay. $65/hour. Blocking window 60-80 hours. 46,800 - 62,400 per year.

Year two hourly pay. $71/hour. 51,120 - 68,160 per year.

Year three hourly pay. $81/hour. 58,320 - 77,760 per year.

Year four hourly pay. $91/hour. 65,520 - 87,360 per year.

Throw those numbers into here. https://www.eytaxcalculators.com/en/202 ... lator.html

Flat pay cannot be paid less than 75 hours. So the floors would be

Year one: 58,500
Year two: 63,900
Year three: 72,900
Year four: 81,900

Not that it makes it that much better, but marginally less bleak.

And of course the union could always sign an MOA to pay everyone 55 hours, but I think those days and individuals are behind us now.

[NotDirty!]

Year one hourly pay. $65/hour. Blocking window 60-80 hours. 46,800 - 62,400 per year.

Year two hourly pay. $71/hour. 51,120 - 68,160 per year.

Year three hourly pay. $81/hour. 58,320 - 77,760 per year.

Year four hourly pay. $91/hour. 65,520 - 87,360 per year.

Throw those numbers into here. https://www.eytaxcalculators.com/en/202 ... lator.html

Flat pay cannot be paid less than 75 hours. So the floors would be

Year one: 58,500
Year two: 63,900
Year three: 72,900
Year four: 81,900

Not that it makes it that much better, but marginally less bleak.

And of course the union could always sign an MOA to pay everyone 55 hours, but I think those days and individuals are behind us now.

After the flat pay portion of the contract was written in such a way to never pay less than 75 hours (specifically stating a base “salary” that equates to 75 hours per month, with an hourly rate for more than 75 hours), our fearless leaders still managed to find a way to make sure we all suffered equally (except for those ACPA reps who were able to use DSCs to bump themselves up to 82 hours per month!)! A sad part of our history that hopefully is never repeated!! (And I guess I was lucky to not be furloughed… those pilots had it even worse!!)

[Fanblade]

Thanks for the correction

[PositiveRate27]

Year one hourly pay. $65/hour. Blocking window 60-80 hours. 46,800 - 62,400 per year.

Year two hourly pay. $71/hour. 51,120 - 68,160 per year.

Year three hourly pay. $81/hour. 58,320 - 77,760 per year.

Year four hourly pay. $91/hour. 65,520 - 87,360 per year.

Throw those numbers into here. https://www.eytaxcalculators.com/en/202 ... lator.html

Flat pay cannot be paid less than 75 hours. So the floors would be

Year one: 58,500
Year two: 63,900
Year three: 72,900
Year four: 81,900

Not that it makes it that much better, but marginally less bleak.

And of course the union could always sign an MOA to pay everyone 55 hours, but I think those days and individuals are behind us now.

Yup, I made $56k in year one and $53k in year 2. The real icing on the cake was flying around with guys defending flat pay by saying “you’re guaranteed 75 hours a month, I’m only guaranteed 60. You’ll want to be on flat pay when times are tough.”

As it was stated earlier, I still consider myself lucky to not have been laid off, but I was on one of the few fleets rostered at 18 days rsv during the 55hr MOA. Other fleets were given an “hour cut” and were rostered to 12 days for 55 credits while my fleet was contractually required to be available for 18 days of rsv for 55 credits a month. A straight up pay cut. Tough to commit to a side gig when you have to be available to fly up to 18 days a month, plus sliding rsv rules. We had no vote on it, nor was there any discussions about it. Just a simple ACPA email letting us know. It seems anything contract related is only guaranteed around here until it’s not.

[2Shoes]

My T4 was $72K. Thats 6 months at year 2 and 6 months at year 3 pay. Per diems on the narrow body are about $1100 a month for 16 days at work.
Hope the helps.

[altiplano]

Maybe don't bother here ..

Go to Transat, I hear they have a good lifestyle... Or Westjet, I hear that they are getting $300/hr on the upcoming contract.

Seriously, F- these guys.... Let them fix their shit before you are willing to endure it.

[Cavalier44]

Year 1 FO in Montreal. First pay of the month is ~$1815 after tax, second pay is ~$2100, giving ~$3915 monthly after tax - less than half of what I was making at my last gig, if that makes any difference.

Unfortunately, the long-term compensation and pension still make this job a no-brainer, especially with the quick upgrades coming on the narrow-body fleet. As others have said, it's a slog - however, the long-term earning potential is still at the top of the industry in this country, which is why there is no shortage of resumes in the inbox.

[orangejuice]

Year 1 FO in Montreal. First pay of the month is ~$1815 after tax, second pay is ~$2100, giving ~$3915 monthly after tax - less than half of what I was making at my last gig, if that makes any difference.

Unfortunately, the long-term compensation and pension still make this job a no-brainer, especially with the quick upgrades coming on the narrow-body fleet. As others have said, it's a slog - however, the long-term earning potential is still at the top of the industry in this country, which is why there is no shortage of resumes in the inbox.

Is there an actual pension at AC or is it RRSP matching?

[Cavalier44]

Is there an actual pension at AC or is it RRSP matching?

All Air Canada pilots hired after January 01, 2018, are enrolled in the Canada-Wide Industrial Pension Plan (CWIPP). The CWIPP pension plan is known as a Target Benefit (TB) plan, which functions like a hybrid between a Defined Benefit (DB) plan, and a Defined Contribution (DC) plan. Air Canada pilots pay into the plan along with an employer-matched contribution, however, the payout is similar to a DB plan in that it is not directly tied to the employee's contributions, instead being calculated via a formula that is based on the overall performance of the plan, lifetime earnings of the pilot during their employment with Air Canada, etc. Like a DB plan, the CWIPP pension is also payable for life following the employee's retirement.

One of the advantages I've seen of the CWIPP plan is that it removes the necessity to maximize earnings in the last five years as is the case under the older DB plan. Many of the pilots under the old plan are faced with the difficult decision to bid onto widebody captain positions in their last five years of employment in order to maximize their pension, as the calculation is based on an average of the employee's five highest-earning years. This may mean spending their last five years of employment as a relatively junior widebody captain (seniority number in the low 1000s), sitting on reserve, or taking the least-desirable flying.

With the CWIPP plan, the benefit calculation looks at average lifetime earnings during a pilot's employment. What that effectively means is that it can be more advantageous to take a quick upgrade on a narrow-body aircraft and accumulate seniority in that position, while also maximizing your average earnings from an early date. This removes the pressure of having to consider bidding into a position in the last few years of a pilot's employment that could come with a substantially reduced quality of life, just to maximize the pension payout under the DB plan.

[flying4dollars]

Is there an actual pension at AC or is it RRSP matching?

All Air Canada pilots hired after January 01, 2018, are enrolled in the Canada-Wide Industrial Pension Plan (CWIPP). The CWIPP pension plan is known as a Target Benefit (TB) plan, which functions like a hybrid between a Defined Benefit (DB) plan, and a Defined Contribution (DC) plan. Air Canada pilots pay into the plan along with an employer-matched contribution, however, the payout is similar to a DB plan in that it is not directly tied to the employee's contributions, instead being calculated via a formula that is based on the overall performance of the plan, lifetime earnings of the pilot during their employment with Air Canada, etc. Like a DB plan, the CWIPP pension is also payable for life following the employee's retirement.

One of the advantages I've seen of the CWIPP plan is that it removes the necessity to maximize earnings in the last five years as is the case under the older DB plan. Many of the pilots under the old plan are faced with the difficult decision to bid onto widebody captain positions in their last five years of employment in order to maximize their pension, as the calculation is based on an average of the employee's five highest-earning years. This may mean spending their last five years of employment as a relatively junior widebody captain (seniority number in the low 1000s), sitting on reserve, or taking the least-desirable flying.

With the CWIPP plan, the benefit calculation looks at average lifetime earnings during a pilot's employment. What that effectively means is that it can be more advantageous to take a quick upgrade on a narrow-body aircraft and accumulate seniority in that position, while also maximizing your average earnings from an early date. This removes the pressure of having to consider bidding into a position in the last few years of a pilot's employment that could come with a substantially reduced quality of life, just to maximize the pension payout under the DB plan.

Well said. This is probably one of the best benefits of CWIPP.

[sstaurus]

I like that perspective... but it's funny how many captains seem to think the opposite was the benefit. Under DB, you could sit RP your entire career and then go WB Capt for the last 5 years (theoretically, not sure if anyone ever did that).

On the flipside, now there's pressure to take a crappy NB Capt schedule early on just to maximize the pension.

[Crewbunk]

I like that perspective... but it's funny how many captains seem to think the opposite was the benefit. Under DB, you could sit RP your entire career and then go WB Capt for the last 5 years (theoretically, not sure if anyone ever did that).

Or, one could do your “best five years” (three years if you were exCP) earlier in your career, then coast the rest on smaller equipment with a great schedule, building up your MPUs.

Mathematically, either method works; DB or CWIPP, with a similar result. Namely, nothing is free.

[stall]

A DB pension is vastly superior

You get a payout based on a years of service & best 5 yrs calculation

There is zero pressure to need to max out T4s for 80 plus percent of your career


The CWIPP pension was negotiated in 2017 when there was a 10 yrs deal in place. Think about that for a second...ACPA negotiated a pension plan when they had zero leverage for any sort of job action

I would love to find another union on the planet with that strategy

CWIPP is based on career average earnings

So that means for your entire career, you need to always be maximizing your t4. This means chasing bottom of lists for your entire career sacrificing your Quality of Life for your entire working life

Also remember, the max contribution doesn't even kick in until year 5. So your first 5 years, combined with world worst pay, is a complete joke

Then also remember your DB pension brothers & sisters will get much more paid out for what they contribute

Also remember your US brothers & sisters are getting 18% employers contribution from day#1 and your maxing out 10.5%

So overall, this is classic ACPA