New hire thoughts

[newcomer]

What is AC's incentive for doing so? AC is having no trouble finding resumés, and the only thing holding them back from more experienced pilots is the stingy flat pay that some people think is too great a sacrifice.

Do you think Delta or American had trouble finding resumés? All the regional pilots, and pilots at Atlas, Amerijet, etc...were applying to the legacies anyway.
Legacies never had any issues finding pilots, unlike the regionals. Yet they're still increasing the pay. Why? Strong unions.

[Crewbunk]

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

Actually, I was looking at 767F Captain. A buddy is making about $22,500 a month. (Plus expenses). And plus about $3000 every time he picks up a Western turn on a draft, which is offered weekly.

But hell. If you’d rather jump to Porter to be a DEC, dig in. I’ll bet you a 26 of Johnnie Walker Blue, Porter Inc, (the jet operation) doesn’t exist in 10 years.

[schnitzel2k3]

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

Actually, I was looking at 767F Captain. A buddy is making about $22,500 a month. (Plus expenses). And plus about $3000 every time he picks up a Western turn on a draft, which is offered weekly.

But hell. If you’d rather jump to Porter to be a DEC, dig in. I’ll bet you a 26 of Johnnie Walker Blue, Porter Inc, (the jet operation) doesn’t exist in 10 years.

I guess the interview didn't go well?

[Crewbunk]

I guess the interview didn't go well?

Interview?

I’m a 35 year A330 Captain at Air Canada. No, I didn’t apply at Porter.

But, I do have an MBA in Aviation, (from Concordia in Montreal) and I look at Porter with fascination. Since their first flight 15 years ago they have not achieved an operating profit, surviving on investor capital and real estate deals. The E2 operation is aiming in the same direction.

[schnitzel2k3]

I guess the interview didn't go well?

Interview?

I’m a 35 year A330 Captain at Air Canada. No, I didn’t apply at Porter.

But, I do have an MBA in Aviation, (from Concordia in Montreal) and I look at Porter with fascination. Since their first flight 15 years ago they have not achieved an operating profit, surviving on investor capital and real estate deals. The E2 operation is aiming in the same direction.

Makes sense now, thanks. You led me astray when you mentioned your friend on the 767F was pulling in 22,500, and then ripped on Porter - it sounded strange. What are you pulling in on average a month on the 330? One would imagine it would be higher than the freighter division.

Porter likely survives because the Deluce family loves aviation. Robert I believe is a pilot himself. It's really hard to determine with a certainty how the jet operation will affect the profitability of the company. I would likely say if the Dash operstion over 16 years hasn't produced a profit - it likely would be on the chopping block - not the E2.

[Captain101]

So 7-10 years in as a WB FO, making $160+ the options are either reserve, or work every weekend and if you prefer the long haul, get your days worked down to 14.

I’m just trying to present the facts in an unbiased way, so that fellow aviators can make an honest assessment of their career projections and expectations.

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

That is correct. And let’s also be clear: The forecasted upgrade times for the 787/777 are in the neighbourhood of 20-25 years. That means if you’re in your early 30’s when hired you won’t see that fat $300k/yr until you’re in your mid to late 50’s and you’ll be bottom of the list rsv working Christmas and bidding dead last for vacation.Top scale NB CA earns you $210k a year at 75 credits. Most guys say they earn $220k-$230k a year with per diems + training and slightly higher DBMS some months. Unfortunately you won’t qualify for a mortgage on the average house in YYZ or YVR with that salary. If you want to ride out the WB FO for your career until you can upgrade to CA on the WB it is even less than that.

Is it a fantastic job? Absolutely. Is it the best show in town? Probably. Does it have glaring issues that absolutely HAVE to be addressed and no longer ignored? 100% yes. We have to take our heads out of the sand and claw our way to the excellent WAWCON this profession used to be known for. The shortage is here. Other airlines are offering excellent career choices now. People should look at all their options and choose wisely, especially if they are 40+.

As per the forecast you mentioned the upgrade time on the 787/777 is 20-25 years. I have been reading that on the NB it's between 3-5 years as of today. Is that still accurate? Also around what seniority # or years from today can one expect to hold a decent schedule as NB captain. I know that can be subjective from person to person but I am looking at just a couple of weekends off a month as a start or be able to bid single day pairings. My preference will be single day pairings.

[Fanblade]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

Actually, I was looking at 767F Captain. A buddy is making about $22,500 a month. (Plus expenses). And plus about $3000 every time he picks up a Western turn on a draft, which is offered weekly.

But hell. If you’d rather jump to Porter to be a DEC, dig in. I’ll bet you a 26 of Johnnie Walker Blue, Porter Inc, (the jet operation) doesn’t exist in 10 years.

BS yet again.

A 10 year 767F CA in an 82 hour month is still under 20K. About 240K/ year. Overtime isn’t a raise. 50K is a lot of overtime.

You are embellishing what a 10 year 767 CA makes in a normal month. 290k/year is about an 18% overstatement. This is exactly why I stick to hourly pay only. Apples to apples.

I’m sure with the pilot shortage overtime is aplenty everywhere. But it’s not a raise.

[Crewbunk]

Makes sense now, thanks. You led me astray when you mentioned your friend on the 767F was pulling in 22,500, and then ripped on Porter - it sounded strange. What are you pulling in on average a month on the 330? One would imagine it would be higher than the freighter division.

Porter likely survives because the Deluce family loves aviation. Robert I believe is a pilot himself. It's really hard to determine with a certainty how the jet operation will affect the profitability of the company. I would likely say if the Dash operstion over 16 years hasn't produced a profit - it likely would be on the chopping block - not the E2.

I make about $25,000 a month, plus expenses and allowances. But, I am not a good gauge. I do no Voluntary Overtime and only accept a Draft, if forced, and only to “Draft and Drop”. My time off is very important to me, it’s why I don’t fly the higher paying 787 and 777.

My engagement in this thread was a response to the statement that a 10 year F/O making $160K at Air Canada compared to a DEC at Porter. In fact, the point I was making was one of the main attributes of Air Canada, and that is the choices. Want to be a senior WB F/O? It’s there. Mid level NB Captain, take your pick, there’s three. And now, with the current CMSC forecast, 10 years should get you 767F Captain. The candidates hired at the start of the present hiring spree are looking at a career of which we can only dream.

My comments about Porter were with respect. The Deluces have been in the business a long time. They are very shrewd businessmen. It has always been my opinion (just my opinion) that their aim has always been to sell it, like they did with Austin Airways, then Air Ontario. Keeping the Q and E2 operations as a separate company, it appears either are available to any buyer.

Personally, I am rooting for Porter. But, the economics of the E2 does not lend to a low cost carrier. Presently, they are competing with price even though I admire the on-board product.

[rudder]

Small sample size but the B767F CA that I have spoken to say poor QOL. Perhaps will improve as 767F fleet size increases.

It sure went junior in the last bid.

[BTD]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

Actually, I was looking at 767F Captain. A buddy is making about $22,500 a month. (Plus expenses). And plus about $3000 every time he picks up a Western turn on a draft, which is offered weekly.

But hell. If you’d rather jump to Porter to be a DEC, dig in. I’ll bet you a 26 of Johnnie Walker Blue, Porter Inc, (the jet operation) doesn’t exist in 10 years.

BS yet again.

A 10 year 767F CA in an 82 hour month is still under 20K. About 240K/ year. Overtime isn’t a raise. 50K is a lot of overtime.

You are embellishing what a 10 year 767 CA makes in a normal month. 290k/year is about an 18% overstatement. This is exactly why I stick to hourly pay only. Apples to apples.

I’m sure with the pilot shortage overtime is aplenty everywhere. But it’s not a raise.

I am also curious Crewbunk, what western turns is your buddy doing? I am a 767F captain and I haven’t seen anything west and almost no turns. Even Halifax and St. John’s are operate out DH back due to duty time limits and the limited fins right now.

Most flying is southern US, South America/Mexico and some Europe.

[Crewbunk]

BS yet again.

A 10 year 767F CA in an 82 hour month is still under 20K. About 240K/ year. Overtime isn’t a raise. 50K is a lot of overtime.

You are embellishing what a 10 year 767 CA makes in a normal month. 290k/year is about an 18% overstatement. This is exactly why I stick to hourly pay only. Apples to apples.

I’m sure with the pilot shortage overtime is aplenty everywhere. But it’s not a raise.

2023 rates for the 767F are $266.08 an hour. Do your own maths. 10 years from now, (assuming ALPA can do no better than 2% a year) will be $323.29 an hour.

In a recent thread, I was discussing “10 year seniority”. Looking at forecast hiring, one additional 777, three additional 787s and two A330s, it was not a stretch to assume someone hired at the start of this hiring batch could hold bottom 787 or 777 Captain in 10 years. It’s what the CMSC is suggesting to the company and what they are budgeting for.

As I said above, it’s all about choices, and AC offers choices in spades.

[Crewbunk]

I am also curious Crewbunk, what western turns is your buddy doing? I am a 767F captain and I haven’t seen anything west and almost no turns. Even Halifax and St. John’s are operate out DH back due to duty time limits and the limited fins right now.

Most flying is southern US, South America/Mexico and some Europe.

Looking at his January schedule on Globe I see two turns, YYZ-LAX (red eye deadhead back) and YYZ-YEG (DH back).

But, the assessment above is true, QOL is abysmal. It can only get better and is only for those that have eyes wide open going in.

[eagle7044]

What is AC's incentive for doing so? AC is having no trouble finding resumés, and the only thing holding them back from more experienced pilots is the stingy flat pay that some people think is too great a sacrifice.

Do you think Delta or American had trouble finding resumés? All the regional pilots, and pilots at Atlas, Amerijet, etc...were applying to the legacies anyway.
Legacies never had any issues finding pilots, unlike the regionals. Yet they're still increasing the pay. Why? Strong unions.

This thread has veered into 18 different directions so I'm likely to make a new post about this.

But I'm not sure strong unions are the cause. I think it's simply a matter of competition. None of the majors can afford to trail significantly or the pool of qualified applicants will dry up and the union will get pissed off about it. Air Canada has nothing to lose by keeping their contract as-is, because they're still simply the top of the Canadian pile when it comes to long-term career prospects.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see major contract gains, but I'm waiting for someone to give me a justified reason that it's not only possible but LIKELY before I get my hopes up.

[schnitzel2k3]

Agreed Personally, I am rooting for Porter. But, the economics of the E2 does not lend to a low cost carrier. Presently, they are competing with price even though I admire the on-board product.

Would you expand on that?

From what I've experienced they've got the product, they've got the pricing and hopefully soon they'll have more routing.

[schnitzel2k3]

What is AC's incentive for doing so? AC is having no trouble finding resumés, and the only thing holding them back from more experienced pilots is the stingy flat pay that some people think is too great a sacrifice.

Do you think Delta or American had trouble finding resumés? All the regional pilots, and pilots at Atlas, Amerijet, etc...were applying to the legacies anyway.
Legacies never had any issues finding pilots, unlike the regionals. Yet they're still increasing the pay. Why? Strong unions.

This thread has veered into 18 different directions so I'm likely to make a new post about this.

It's a good thread.

[Fanblade]

BS yet again.

A 10 year 767F CA in an 82 hour month is still under 20K. About 240K/ year. Overtime isn’t a raise. 50K is a lot of overtime.

You are embellishing what a 10 year 767 CA makes in a normal month. 290k/year is about an 18% overstatement. This is exactly why I stick to hourly pay only. Apples to apples.

I’m sure with the pilot shortage overtime is aplenty everywhere. But it’s not a raise.

2023 rates for the 767F are $266.08 an hour. Do your own maths.

This is why hourly rates are much more transparent. I think you may have lifted the 767 hourly wage out of the pay charts. 10 year 767 CA is about 244 an hour. Or have you added overseas and nav pay to everything?

[Fanblade]

What is AC's incentive for doing so? AC is having no trouble finding resumés, and the only thing holding them back from more experienced pilots is the stingy flat pay that some people think is too great a sacrifice.

Do you think Delta or American had trouble finding resumés? All the regional pilots, and pilots at Atlas, Amerijet, etc...were applying to the legacies anyway.
Legacies never had any issues finding pilots, unlike the regionals. Yet they're still increasing the pay. Why? Strong unions.

This thread has veered into 18 different directions so I'm likely to make a new post about this.

But I'm not sure strong unions are the cause. I think it's simply a matter of competition. None of the majors can afford to trail significantly or the pool of qualified applicants will dry up and the union will get pissed off about it. Air Canada has nothing to lose by keeping their contract as-is, because they're still simply the top of the Canadian pile when it comes to long-term career prospects.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see major contract gains, but I'm waiting for someone to give me a justified reason that it's not only possible but LIKELY before I get my hopes up.

The US carriers have been matching up. In Canada ACPA has been matching down. 10% less for cargo. Rouge matching WJ and Transat are examples.

In the US a legacy sets a new benchmark. In that bargaining cycle everyone that follows matches it. Next cycle someone sets a new benchmark. Everyone that follows matches it. And so on.

In Canada ACPA’s matching down has put a lid on the entire industry.

Matching down in Canada vs matching up in the US is what has led to the massive pay disparity over time.

Couple of points from the US.

- Setting a new benchmark is a hard fought battle. Some US carriers have had expired contracts for a few years.
- The legacy sets it.
- It has taken US carriers multiple bargaining cycles to get this far ahead of us. It was only 2014-17 they made the same as us without currency exchange.

Lesson. If we want to set a Canadian benchmark we will have to fight. Fight hard. If we can’t stomach that we will fail. I believe this pilot group is ready for a fight.

[eagle7044]

Do you think Delta or American had trouble finding resumés? All the regional pilots, and pilots at Atlas, Amerijet, etc...were applying to the legacies anyway.
Legacies never had any issues finding pilots, unlike the regionals. Yet they're still increasing the pay. Why? Strong unions.

This thread has veered into 18 different directions so I'm likely to make a new post about this.

But I'm not sure strong unions are the cause. I think it's simply a matter of competition. None of the majors can afford to trail significantly or the pool of qualified applicants will dry up and the union will get pissed off about it. Air Canada has nothing to lose by keeping their contract as-is, because they're still simply the top of the Canadian pile when it comes to long-term career prospects.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see major contract gains, but I'm waiting for someone to give me a justified reason that it's not only possible but LIKELY before I get my hopes up.

The US carriers have been matching up. In Canada ACPA has been matching down. 10% less for cargo. Rouge matching WJ and Transat are examples.

In the US a legacy sets a new benchmark. In that bargaining cycle everyone that follows matches it. Next cycle someone sets a new benchmark. Everyone that follows matches it. And so on.

In Canada ACPA’s matching down has put a lid on the entire industry.

Matching down in Canada vs matching up in the US is what has led to the massive pay disparity over time.

Couple of points from the US.

- Setting a new benchmark is a hard fought battle. Some US carriers have had expired contracts for a few years.
- The legacy sets it.
- It has taken US carriers multiple bargaining cycles to get this far ahead of us. It was only 2014-17 they made the same as us without currency exchange.

Lesson. If we want to set a Canadian benchmark we will have to fight. Fight hard. If we can’t stomach that we will fail. I believe this pilot group is ready for a fight.

Oorah!

But how do we fight that fight? Management knows any strike will get shut down by the fed, and arbitration will likely only lead us to getting a boost to match anticipated inflation. So is it just a question of voting no and accepting any pressure strategies the union organizes? The no vote from last fall was highly encouraging, but I'd say the jury's still out on whether or not the pilot group has the stomach for a prolonged conflict. (But I'll tell you what - I am.)

[Canpilot7]

Not going to arbitration would be the first good plan. No reason to do so - just have to hope that any union members suggesting doing it are cleaned out asap. ALPA turned their back on a strike mandate from the WestJet pilots and that had a major affect on the industry. Have heard the current batch at westjet isn't the type to do that again, so here's hoping.

As for the feds forcing back to work there is a ton of evidence to say they wouldn't do that (the prime minister and his ministers on several occasions adamantly arguing against forcing back to work or any interference of that sort) and zero evidence that they'd force back to work. So I think that assuming it's the current government in place and we don't see some government come in promising to stamp down an airline strike.... I can't see any possibility they intervene. It'd be political suicide

[eagle7044]

Not going to arbitration would be the first good plan. No reason to do so - just have to hope that any union members suggesting doing it are cleaned out asap. ALPA turned their back on a strike mandate from the WestJet pilots and that had a major affect on the industry. Have heard the current batch at westjet isn't the type to do that again, so here's hoping.

As for the feds forcing back to work there is a ton of evidence to say they wouldn't do that (the prime minister and his ministers on several occasions adamantly arguing against forcing back to work or any interference of that sort) and zero evidence that they'd force back to work. So I think that assuming it's the current government in place and we don't see some government come in promising to stamp down an airline strike.... I can't see any possibility they intervene. It'd be political suicide

Can you explain the WJ thing? You're saying the pilots didn't want to strike cause those guys all drank the profit sharing koolaid back in the day, or was it the union who didn't want to recommend a strike?

So as it stands, we have the legal right to strike? Didn't we try and fail to reacquire that right in 2012? Beyond a change in gov't, are the laws somehow different now?

I'm also unclear on the arbitration process. If we can assume that an arbitrator won't support any kind of legacy high water mark strategy, and maybe give us inflation at best, isn't it in the company's best interest to get to arbitration as fast as possible? If I understand correctly, the company can request an arbitrator, so we don't exactly have the power to avoid arbitration as a strategy.

And even if we can stave off arbitration, what are the legal ways that we can apply pressure? Obviously ACPA telling everyone in 2012
to call sick was both illegal and ineffective, since most pilots didn't have the stomach to do it, and those who did almost lost their jobs.

Asking lots of questions here, I know. I may be 100% wrong on everything, just trying to wrap my head around all this.