Aircraft disabled on ylw runway ...

[oldncold]

Atc reporting tempo closure runway due to aircraft disabled on runway aircraft fire?

[PilotDAR]

CBC is saying engine fire after takeoff from Kamloops:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.6766476

And everyone okay...

[digits_]

For further flight planning: https://www.goticketo.com/bus/kelowna,b ... y,alberta/

[co-joe]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

[fish4life]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

The Q would have similar performance on one engine as the classic has with both. Also they would have full charts with specific single engine procedures for missed approaches.
Still well done by the crew.

[co-joe]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

The Q would have similar performance on one engine as the classic has with both. Also they would have full charts with specific single engine procedures for missed approaches.
Still well done by the crew.

Still, a complex special missed on one engine with 75 pax in the Q would push most pilot's comfort boundaries, 5000 horses or not. They must have had a fire warning to commit to that valley under those conditions.

[digits_]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

The Q would have similar performance on one engine as the classic has with both. Also they would have full charts with specific single engine procedures for missed approaches.
Still well done by the crew.

Still, a complex special missed on one engine with 75 pax in the Q would push most pilot's comfort boundaries, 5000 horses or not. They must have had a fire warning to commit to that valley under those conditions.

Where would you have gone?

[7ECA]

Based off the track log, they got up to roughly 7,300M or just shy of FL240 before righty decided it didn't feel like going to Cowtown. Started a gentle descent, did a few loops around over the Vernon area and then headed into Kelowna.

Realistically, where else are you going to go if one quits out of Kamloops? Kelowna is a decent sized towered field, with ARFF on site. "Tight valley" or not, it's got all the positives going for it. IMHO.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WEN ... /CYKA/CYLW

[fish4life]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

The Q would have similar performance on one engine as the classic has with both. Also they would have full charts with specific single engine procedures for missed approaches.
Still well done by the crew.

Still, a complex special missed on one engine with 75 pax in the Q would push most pilot's comfort boundaries, 5000 horses or not. They must have had a fire warning to commit to that valley under those conditions.

Hardly a tough decision, besides any twin engine QRH I’ve flown says land ASAP/ nearest suitable airport etc. if you are uncomfortable doing a possible SE missed in Kelowna it’s time to go back to sim

[freakonature]

I think there were some nasty thunderstorms at the time?

[J31]

VFR in the valley around CYLW. TCU over the divide I believe. So a good decision to go to Kelowna. Easy single engine miss approach to the south if required but no weather to cause a miss.

They departed Kamloops about 2315Z and arrived in Kelowna about 0045Z.

TAF CYLW 021840Z 0219/0307 VRB03KT P6SM FEW060 SCT100
TEMPO 0219/0221 SCT060 BKN100 FM022100 20010KT P6SM SCT060
TEMPO 0221/0307 5SM -SHRASN BR BKN050 RMK FCST BASED
ON AUTO OBS. NXT FCST BY 030100Z

METAR CYLW 022200Z AUTO 24016G30KT 190V260 9SM -RA FEW029 SCT039 SCT055 BKN083 06/M03 A2961 RMK SLP041=
SPECI CYLW 022208Z AUTO 20017G24KT 9SM FEW029 SCT055 SCT081 05/M02 A2961 RMK LTNG DIST N NE SLP039=
METAR CYLW 022300Z AUTO 18010G15KT 9SM BKN071 OVC086 06/M04 A2964 RMK SLP052=
METAR CYLW 030000Z AUTO 26016G24KT 200V320 9SM BKN091 BKN110 08/M10 A2965 RMK SLP053
METAR CYLW 030100Z AUTO 23016G21KT 9SM BKN140 07/M10 A2968 RMK SLP065=
METAR CYLW 030200Z AUTO 20011G17KT 180V250 9SM CLR 04/M09 A2971 RMK SLP079=

Good job on the Q400 folks!

[altiplano]

Kelowna is not a "tight" mountain valley. Maybe if you haven't glown in actual right mountain valleys before...

And it's VFR weather...

And it's a super long valley...

Go around for whatever reason you have lots of room to do a circuit, even in a Q or a 737. Or keep climbing out over the lake all the way to Penticton if you aren't comfortable to control the aircraft.

I find guys get all worked up over special procedures when they could just look out the window and drive.

[rookiepilot]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

Don’t think you’ve seen a tight mountain valley.

[pelmet]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

Don’t think you’ve seen a tight mountain valley.

More than one airport up north with scheduled service lies in tight confines yet still gets that service at night. The fortunate operators have weather radar with terrain mode that is used as a reference to paint bright red for the canyon walls on either side. 180 degree descending turn around onto final. Extending the downwind leg significantly is not the safest of ideas.

[co-joe]

VFR in the valley around CYLW. TCU over the divide I believe. So a good decision to go to Kelowna. Easy single engine miss approach to the south if required but no weather to cause a miss.
...METAR CYLW 030000Z AUTO 26016G24KT 200V320 9SM BKN091 BKN110 08/M10 A2965 RMK SLP053
METAR CYLW 030100Z AUTO 23016G21KT 9SM BKN140 07/M10 A2968 RMK SLP065=
...

Good job on the Q400 folks!

No weather to cause a missed? That wind can easily give moderate turbulence on the approach. A million other things outside of the pilot's control can cause a missed, unstable approach, aircraft or vehicle on the runway, birds... point is, in a 705 aircraft you need to brief and be ready for every possibility. Just saying oh we'll fly the lake to Penticton is all well and good, but you have to be able to meet the missed approach climb gradient single engine, which now means setting up and briefing the possibility of a complex special on one engine. Is it the tightest valley in the world? No of course not.

Yes they did a good job, yes they were stopped by what looks like Bravo in the video, round of applause. Now can we get serious and talk about the decision to land in those winds, on the downhill runway, in a tight mountain valley, with a 9000' missed approach altitude in strong gusty crosswinds?

About the only thing that would force me to land in ylw single engine is an active uncontrollable fire. Just why would you add risk to the situation?

[co-joe]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

Don’t think you’ve seen a tight mountain valley.

I've seen plenty of tight mountain valleys, just because you've seen worse, doesn't make it a smart decision. We weight and manage risk for a living, why add risk just because we've done worse in the past?

[goldeneagle]

About the only thing that would force me to land in ylw single engine is an active uncontrollable fire. Just why would you add risk to the situation?

So tell us, levelling off at 240 over enderby, as you make the power adjustments one stove dies on you. That was this situation. Where would you go ?

[fish4life]

VFR in the valley around CYLW. TCU over the divide I believe. So a good decision to go to Kelowna. Easy single engine miss approach to the south if required but no weather to cause a miss.
...METAR CYLW 030000Z AUTO 26016G24KT 200V320 9SM BKN091 BKN110 08/M10 A2965 RMK SLP053
METAR CYLW 030100Z AUTO 23016G21KT 9SM BKN140 07/M10 A2968 RMK SLP065=
...

Good job on the Q400 folks!

No weather to cause a missed? That wind can easily give moderate turbulence on the approach. A million other things outside of the pilot's control can cause a missed, unstable approach, aircraft or vehicle on the runway, birds... point is, in a 705 aircraft you need to brief and be ready for every possibility. Just saying oh we'll fly the lake to Penticton is all well and good, but you have to be able to meet the missed approach climb gradient single engine, which now means setting up and briefing the possibility of a complex special on one engine. Is it the tightest valley in the world? No of course not.

Yes they did a good job, yes they were stopped by what looks like Bravo in the video, round of applause. Now can we get serious and talk about the decision to land in those winds, on the downhill runway, in a tight mountain valley, with a 9000' missed approach altitude in strong gusty crosswinds?

About the only thing that would force me to land in ylw single engine is an active uncontrollable fire. Just why would you add risk to the situation?

And how dumb would they look if the other stove died or had low oil pressure during the extra long journey to YYC?

[digits_]

VFR in the valley around CYLW. TCU over the divide I believe. So a good decision to go to Kelowna. Easy single engine miss approach to the south if required but no weather to cause a miss.
...METAR CYLW 030000Z AUTO 26016G24KT 200V320 9SM BKN091 BKN110 08/M10 A2965 RMK SLP053
METAR CYLW 030100Z AUTO 23016G21KT 9SM BKN140 07/M10 A2968 RMK SLP065=
...

Good job on the Q400 folks!

No weather to cause a missed? That wind can easily give moderate turbulence on the approach. A million other things outside of the pilot's control can cause a missed, unstable approach, aircraft or vehicle on the runway, birds... point is, in a 705 aircraft you need to brief and be ready for every possibility. Just saying oh we'll fly the lake to Penticton is all well and good, but you have to be able to meet the missed approach climb gradient single engine, which now means setting up and briefing the possibility of a complex special on one engine. Is it the tightest valley in the world? No of course not.

Yes they did a good job, yes they were stopped by what looks like Bravo in the video, round of applause. Now can we get serious and talk about the decision to land in those winds, on the downhill runway, in a tight mountain valley, with a 9000' missed approach altitude in strong gusty crosswinds?

About the only thing that would force me to land in ylw single engine is an active uncontrollable fire. Just why would you add risk to the situation?

They are in an emergency situation. They don't have to meet any missed approach climb gradients anymore. (Although i am sure they could)

Again, where would you have landed instead?

[fish4life]

VFR in the valley around CYLW. TCU over the divide I believe. So a good decision to go to Kelowna. Easy single engine miss approach to the south if required but no weather to cause a miss.
...METAR CYLW 030000Z AUTO 26016G24KT 200V320 9SM BKN091 BKN110 08/M10 A2965 RMK SLP053
METAR CYLW 030100Z AUTO 23016G21KT 9SM BKN140 07/M10 A2968 RMK SLP065=
...

Good job on the Q400 folks!

No weather to cause a missed? That wind can easily give moderate turbulence on the approach. A million other things outside of the pilot's control can cause a missed, unstable approach, aircraft or vehicle on the runway, birds... point is, in a 705 aircraft you need to brief and be ready for every possibility. Just saying oh we'll fly the lake to Penticton is all well and good, but you have to be able to meet the missed approach climb gradient single engine, which now means setting up and briefing the possibility of a complex special on one engine. Is it the tightest valley in the world? No of course not.

Yes they did a good job, yes they were stopped by what looks like Bravo in the video, round of applause. Now can we get serious and talk about the decision to land in those winds, on the downhill runway, in a tight mountain valley, with a 9000' missed approach altitude in strong gusty crosswinds?

About the only thing that would force me to land in ylw single engine is an active uncontrollable fire. Just why would you add risk to the situation?

They are in an emergency situation. They don't have to meet any missed approach climb gradients anymore. (Although i am sure they could)

Again, where would you have landed instead?

Even still they have full charts of what to do in the event of a SE missed that assure terrain clearance.

[altiplano]

You've gotta be kidding...

There might be a streaker on the runway too.

Follow your training, take your time, fly that single engine approach like we do every 8 months or whatever it is now, get configured early, and land the plane.

You are over thinking and overcomplicating it with a million what ifs while flying past a 9000' runway with good weather... go land the plane and if you self induce a go around, file whatever track you are comfortable with, control the airplane, and occasionally look out the window and don't hit anything...

[‘Bob’]

I feel like ylw is the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, the possibility of a single engine go around in a tight mountain valley seems like a lot of extra risk. Great job to land safely.

Don’t think you’ve seen a tight mountain valley.

I've seen plenty of tight mountain valleys, just because you've seen worse, doesn't make it a smart decision. We weight and manage risk for a living, why add risk just because we've done worse in the past?

Kelowna is an absolute non-event for an emergency.

That turbulence and wind gusts you are worried about? Ever wonder what caused it? Unstable air giving high ceilings and massive visibility. It's pretty unlikely that you're going to be going encounter huge gusts and turbulence going to minimums.

A visual missed in Kelowna into a wide circuit is about at easy as it gets. Turn left over the town towards the lake. As long as you're above 3000 feet you can go all the way to the other side of the lake for a 5 mile downwind. That's wider than the DTW is to the IF is at most major airports. Or just drive down to Penticton at 2000 feet following the lake. That's all you need.

And where else are you going to go in BC from there that doesn't involve crossing a huge mountain range? Kamloops is a narrower valley than Kelowna. Same with Penticton.

As far as the last place in Canada I'd want to land with an engine out, I'd say places like Castlegar, Terrace, and Dease Lake are all significantly worse as far airports that Dash 8s regularly go into.

[Choppermech1986]

And how dumb would they look if the other stove died or had low oil pressure during the extra long journey to YYC?

I do think YLW was an ok option, ultimately though, the time they spent circling to the north could have been spent in the cruise, running checklists and ultimately landing in YYC. The chances of your second engine developing problems is infinitesimally small and YXC would cover that base should it arise.

[fish4life]

And how dumb would they look if the other stove died or had low oil pressure during the extra long journey to YYC?

I do think YLW was an ok option, ultimately though, the time they spent circling to the north could have been spent in the cruise, running checklists and ultimately landing in YYC. The chances of your second engine developing problems is infinitesimally small and YXC would cover that base should it arise.

That’s probably how long a descent took still quicker than going to YYC.

Also I always think of this incident if you shut one down and decide to fly past good airports.

https://www.aeroinside.com/4010/perimet ... eaking-oil

[Canadaflyer46]

And how dumb would they look if the other stove died or had low oil pressure during the extra long journey to YYC?

I do think YLW was an ok option, ultimately though, the time they spent circling to the north could have been spent in the cruise, running checklists and ultimately landing in YYC. The chances of your second engine developing problems is infinitesimally small and YXC would cover that base should it arise.

It was an engine FIRE leading to a shutdown. I don’t think I’d be flying past an airport with a 9000’ runway and good weather to take the plane to Calgary. That’s a good hour on one engine.