Is Westjet playing dirty?

[JakeLRS]

https://globalnews.ca/news/9548294/flai ... globalnews

Looks like Jones is accusing "another national carrier" for trying to pouch their aircraft...

[digits_]

https://globalnews.ca/news/9548294/flai ... globalnews

Looks like Jones is accusing "another national carrier" for trying to pouch their aircraft...

Ah come on. Even if all the info in the article is correct, they were still late paying their leases. If you're aware you have the advantage of having signed a below market lease, you'd probably do well in paying them on time. And not be even, allegedly, a few days late.

Companies generally go bust because of competition. But blaming Westjet for this is silly...

[Sharklasers]

https://globalnews.ca/news/9548294/flai ... globalnews

Looks like Jones is accusing "another national carrier" for trying to pouch their aircraft...

I think the flaw in this idea that there is a conspiracy to rob Flair of their fleet is as follows;

If the leases are so outrageously cheap that the evil “hedge funds” will pounce at an instant then why doenst Flair just pay their bills. These cheap leases seem like a tremendous asset to have to lose. Steven Jones says these conversations with the lessors have been ongoing through the winter so it’s not like some banking snafu delayed the payment a few days.

[PostmasterGeneral]

https://globalnews.ca/news/9548294/flai ... globalnews

Looks like Jones is accusing "another national carrier" for trying to pouch their aircraft...

I think the flaw in this idea that there is a conspiracy to rob Flair of their fleet is as follows;

If the leases are so outrageously cheap that the evil “hedge funds” will pounce at an instant then why doenst Flair just pay their bills. These cheap leases seem like a tremendous asset to have to lose. Steven Jones says these conversations with the lessors have been ongoing through the winter so it’s not like some banking snafu delayed the payment a few days.

Exactly this. If you know you've got a smoking good deal on a lease like Flair does, that should be priority #1 to get it paid. He jokes in the article that $1M is only half of one day's business revenue. So, it shouldn't be hard to pay your bills on time then.

[Fanblade]

If the rumor on the other thread is correct. That 3 fins have had their Canadian registration cancelled. Those fins are leaving the country. There is only one unaccounted for fin that could possibly be up for grabs domestically.

Kind of throws cold water on a Canadian airline playing dirty

[cdnavater]

If the rumor on the other thread is correct. That 3 fins have had their Canadian registration cancelled. Those fins are leaving the country. There is only one unaccounted for fin that could possibly be up for grabs domestically.

Kind of throws cold water on a Canadian airline playing dirty

Wait, I thought WJ offered to pay more for those and that’s why they were pulled, now I’m confused!

[lostaviator]

I couldn't make my car payment for a few months! It's the guy down the streets fault!

[co-joe]

5 Days late on your car payment, the next door neighbour offers the bank 4 times as much to take over the lease, even though he doesn't need the car is more like it. Are you going to celebrate it when you realize those planes are getting painted Pink and doing your flying at less than half the pay or Orange and are going to be used to fly your passengers while you are on strike?

[Floop]

Honestly if I missed my car payment by 4 days I'd expect maybe an angry email, but not a repo.

Whether WJ was involved or not a repo after 4 days is unprecedented. Clearly flair was wrong for not paying the bill, but action that fast is weird.

[tbayav8er]

I think there's probably more to the story than just being 4 days late on payment.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I think there's probably more to the story than just being 4 days late on payment.

Correct. They were 5 days late on “a certain” payment. That could have been an already overdue renegotiated payment for prior missed payments or an agreement with the parties involved. I don’t think banks/owners want to repo airplanes within the better half of a week for a single missed payment. They have “fees” for that. Like NSF charges…everyone remembers those.

[Canadaflyer46]

I think you’re giving WJ far too much credit. They couldn’t organize a piss-up in a brewery these days.

[Fanblade]

I think there's probably more to the story than just being 4 days late on payment.

Correct. They were 5 days late on “a certain” payment. That could have been an already overdue renegotiated payment for prior missed payments or an agreement with the parties involved. I don’t think banks/owners want to repo airplanes within the better half of a week for a single missed payment. They have “fees” for that. Like NSF charges…everyone remembers those.

You are not the only one having trouble digesting Flairs narrative.

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/tran ... he-6694511

"I find it all very mysterious on the Flair side," Solloway said.

"It's a process you go through, and I believe it is 90 days of non payment [before planes would be repossessed.] I have never seen their leases but I believe it is normal to go through 90 days of non-payment."

Having planes be repossessed is rare in the airline industry because, Solloway added, having planes is the "Holy grail" for revenue in the industry, as it is a necessity.

Another former executive from the ULCC niche, former Canada Jetlines chief commercial officer and University of British Columbia adjunct professor of aviation John Korenic, agreed.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I think there's probably more to the story than just being 4 days late on payment.

Correct. They were 5 days late on “a certain” payment. That could have been an already overdue renegotiated payment for prior missed payments or an agreement with the parties involved. I don’t think banks/owners want to repo airplanes within the better half of a week for a single missed payment. They have “fees” for that. Like NSF charges…everyone remembers those.

You are not the only one having trouble digesting Flairs narrative.

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/tran ... he-6694511

"I find it all very mysterious on the Flair side," Solloway said.

"It's a process you go through, and I believe it is 90 days of non payment [before planes would be repossessed.] I have never seen their leases but I believe it is normal to go through 90 days of non-payment."

Having planes be repossessed is rare in the airline industry because, Solloway added, having planes is the "Holy grail" for revenue in the industry, as it is a necessity.

Another former executive from the ULCC niche, former Canada Jetlines chief commercial officer and University of British Columbia adjunct professor of aviation John Korenic, agreed.

Thanks for a good article! I’ll sit and watch from the sidelines, but I hope our compatriots in arms survive this. I Hate seeing pilots shafted out of jobs.

[lostaviator]

5 Days late on your car payment, the next door neighbour offers the bank 4 times as much to take over the lease, even though he doesn't need the car is more like it. Are you going to celebrate it when you realize those planes are getting painted Pink and doing your flying at less than half the pay or Orange and are going to be used to fly your passengers while you are on strike?

No. I will not celebrate that. I am also not celebrating fellow aviators working for a struggling company nor will I celebrate a company’s failure.

Whether WJ is playing dirty or not I don’t know. Even Flair’s president didn’t say who it was. All we know is Flair didn’t pay a bill and violated a business contract. The only party in the wrong is Flair. Dirty is just business.

This whole situation just highlights how unsustainable the current aviation market has become in Canada. Flair can’t afford to pay the bills (on “cheap” covid) leases. What happens when those leases are up for renewal? What’s with this race to provide “cheap” airfare? Flying is cheaper than its ever been! We all need to know our value to the company, demand appropriate wages, and let our companies charge appropriate fairs to pay the bills.

[7ECA]

According to Airborne's written statement, Flair has been late on lease payments for five months in a row. Going back to the car payment analogy, would any lessor be willing to tolerate multiple months of late payments? I hardly think so...

If you as a lessor have a lessee whom has been tardy month after month on lease payments, of course after a month or two of giving them ample opportunity to sort out their affairs; you're going to start shopping around for a more conscientious lessee. Flair's "defence" (as it were) is that airlines are late to pony up lease payments all the time. Come on Stephen... give me a break, is that really the best defence you've got right now? Everyone else is doing it?

[flyinhigh]

According to Airborne's written statement, Flair has been late on lease payments for five months in a row.

There it is. We all say it was 1 mill over due by 5 days, but where did that come from. S. Jones of course in a brutal attempt to control the narrative.

We’ve all said it here that no lessor would cancel/repo a plane on such paltry money, and now the lessor has cleared the air abit.

[co-joe]

If you were looking to lease aircraft as a start up airline, would you do business with a relatively new entrant to the aircraft leasing market knowing this is how they would treat you? Airborne or whatever the hedge fund is calling themselves have just sent a pretty clear message what they are going to be like to go into business with.

[ant_321]

If you were looking to lease aircraft as a start up airline, would you do business with a relatively new entrant to the aircraft leasing market knowing this is how they would treat you? Airborne or whatever the hedge fund is calling themselves have just sent a pretty clear message what they are going to be like to go into business with.

I think you have green coloured glasses on. Don’t pay your bills and things get taken away. I wish the best for everyone at flair, I have several good friends there. I don’t see this as the lessors fault in any way. Best case is shows that flair has some minor cash flow issues, worst case they are in serious trouble.

[ziggy]

You mean they expect to get paid for contracts they sign? Now I’m no expert in the business world but I’m pretty sure that’s how it works. You offer something, you get paid for something. Pretty sure airborne is not concerned with the feelings of new entrants.