Is this the first AIP to not be in the benefit of the company?

[FNGYYZ]

Honest question as a relative noob...

Is this the first agreement where this is NOT in the benefit of the company?

I have only seen concessions since being here. Hopefully this a road to solid gains!



MISSISSAUGA, Ont. — The Air Canada Pilots Association says it has reached an agreement in principle on a possible merger with the Air Line Pilots Association — the largest airline pilot union in the world.

In a release Tuesday the two associations said the deal would now be voted on by Air Canada pilots as well as ALPA’s executive council and executive board.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/03/14/ ... sociation/

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Lol...pretty much...

[Sharklasers]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

[slicktop]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

Cry more you sore old fart.

ACPA is dead. It's been dead for at least 10 years. The sooner we move on and look forward with ALPA the better. We are not Jazz, we are not WestJet.

[‘Bob’]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

The elephant in the room right there.

[flyingcanuck]

Honest question as a relative noob...

Is this the first agreement where this is NOT in the benefit of the company?

I have only seen concessions since being here. Hopefully this a road to solid gains!



MISSISSAUGA, Ont. — The Air Canada Pilots Association says it has reached an agreement in principle on a possible merger with the Air Line Pilots Association — the largest airline pilot union in the world.

In a release Tuesday the two associations said the deal would now be voted on by Air Canada pilots as well as ALPA’s executive council and executive board.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/03/14/ ... sociation/

It's not a TA it's an AIP.. just saying so we shall see

[cdnavater]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

Well, it can’t be any worse than your previous “victories”, can it?
Every contract AC pilots signed since I’ve been at Jazz, almost 20 years, has made my life worse and set us back.
Maybe it’s time we all work together, eh!

[Mrs. Andry]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

Well, it can’t be any worse than your previous “victories”, can it?
Every contract AC pilots signed since I’ve been at Jazz, almost 20 years, has made my life worse and set us back.
Maybe it’s time we all work together, eh!

Did the AC pilots vote in your 2017 CBA?

[CPU2000]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

Lol Shark!

A decade of erosion to the current spot of absolute bottom of legacy carriers

ACPA has to be the absolute worst union on the planet. I think the Girl Guides of Botswana have more resources & foresight than hiring an ex Manager to be a union boss while offering zero training beyond listening to the great loss of 2012

WJ ALPA was in a difficult spot their first time around as a new contingent and had to go to arbitration

I assure you this time around it will be difficult

Hopefully see your ass on the picket line showing some solidarity instead of pumping up failed legacies

[Sharklasers]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

Lol Shark!

A decade of erosion to the current spot of absolute bottom of legacy carriers

ACPA has to be the absolute worst union on the planet. I think the Girl Guides of Botswana have more resources & foresight than hiring an ex Manager to be a union boss while offering zero training beyond listening to the great loss of 2012

WJ ALPA was in a difficult spot their first time around as a new contingent and had to go to arbitration

I assure you this time around it will be difficult

Hopefully see your ass on the picket line showing some solidarity instead of pumping up failed legacies

It’s all that hyperbole that turns people off. Purely going off results it seems ALPA in Canada hasn’t been able to accomplish anything either. Jazz has inked loser after losers since 2006 and Dan Adamus tossed all the Canadian pilots under the bus re:fatigue all while waving the ALPA flag high and proud.

But I would love to here a cogent argument for how ALPA would improve the fortunes of the Air Canada pilots without references to African girl guides. I look forward to the roadshow and a balanced discussion then a vote.

[schnitzel2k3]

ALPA hasn't been able to make any headway in Canada because of ACPA. ACPA is the old man on a 1 lane road driving 30kph in a 100 stretch blocking traffic and shaking their fist at everyone honking behind them.

Be interesting to see the results a year or 2 from now. AC management sadly has timing on their side for negotiations thanks to that beautiful 10 year deal putting you square in the middle of a forced recession with guys like Tiff Macklem spreading gospel about holding off on salary increases.

I just hope y'all don't vote YES on the first bar napkin to cross the table. You got miles to go. You win big and pickup the pace, we all win.

[Sharklasers]

ALPA hasn't been able to make any headway in Canada because of ACPA. ACPA is the old man on a 1 lane road driving 30kph in a 100 stretch blocking traffic and shaking their fist at everyone honking behind them.

Be interesting to see the results a year or 2 from now. AC management sadly has timing on their side for negotiations thanks to that beautiful 10 year deal putting you square in the middle of a forced recession with guys like Tiff Macklem spreading gospel about holding off on salary increases.

I just hope y'all don't vote YES on the first bar napkin to cross the table. You got miles to go. You win big and pickup the pace, we all win.

Again, unhelpful hyperbole.

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

I would like to see a cogent roadmap that explains what exactly we will be getting for our money from Herndon and then vote accordingly. No more laughable comparisons to old men and Botswana girl guides, sometimes it seems like you sycophants don’t even want to be taken seriously. I want Hard facts about what ALPA will bring to the table that we currently lack and how they plan to get us the large contractual gains we are being advertised.

The rest is just ‘feels’.

[altiplano]

ACPA is completely outgunned by AC corporate.

Anyone that thinks ACPA has what it takes to go against AC's pros are naive.

Minimal resources.

Minimal training to no training for reps and committee members.

We're isolated and ignorant in the dark.

Bring ALPA on.

[Fanblade]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

Well, it can’t be any worse than your previous “victories”, can it?
Every contract AC pilots signed since I’ve been at Jazz, almost 20 years, has made my life worse and set us back.
Maybe it’s time we all work together, eh!

Did the AC pilots vote in your 2017 CBA?

Actually we did one better. We handed the company a loaded gun to put to Jazz’s head in the form of scope changes.

ACPA is far more responsible for the 2017 outcome than the Jazz pilots.

[rudder]

ACPA disciples seem akin to the flat earth society - they believe what they believe (truth be damned).

I assume that it will be one member - one vote on the merger at ACPA. Demographics (tenure) would generally favour a “yes” result.

Good luck to the AC pilots in their decision. It has been a long time coming.

[Tbayer2021]

Almost every airline represented by ALPA has been on an upwards trajectory in pay and benefits. It may not be as much as most of us would like, but upwards nevertheless. I believe Jazz is the only exception to that. At my previous job, we saw substantial increases in things like pay, training credits and other benefits. This happened after we switched to ALPA after years of being with Unifor. Granted, UNIFOR is not a great benchmark, but the point stands.

Meanwhile, ACPA represented pilots have seen nothing but a steady erosion of their contract. They even managed to agree to 10% less to fly a highly lucrative cargo operation. I can still picture management sitting in some boardroom pissing themselves laughing at the fact that pilots bought the whole bullshit of the operation not being viable without a 10% cut. This was literally days after the company was bragging to investors that the improvised cargo operation was making loads of money and stemming the loss. There is no way the company doesn't see their relationship with ACPA as clubbing baby seals.

[BTD]

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

Correlation vs Causation - Lisa Simpson understood it.

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa: That’s specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn’t work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It’s just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
[Lisa refuses at first, then takes the exchange]

https://youtu.be/fm2W0sq9ddU

[Fanblade]

ALPA hasn't been able to make any headway in Canada because of ACPA. ACPA is the old man on a 1 lane road driving 30kph in a 100 stretch blocking traffic and shaking their fist at everyone honking behind them.

Be interesting to see the results a year or 2 from now. AC management sadly has timing on their side for negotiations thanks to that beautiful 10 year deal putting you square in the middle of a forced recession with guys like Tiff Macklem spreading gospel about holding off on salary increases.

I just hope y'all don't vote YES on the first bar napkin to cross the table. You got miles to go. You win big and pickup the pace, we all win.

Again, unhelpful hyperbole.

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

I would like to see a cogent roadmap that explains what exactly we will be getting for our money from Herndon and then vote accordingly. No more laughable comparisons to old men and Botswana girl guides, sometimes it seems like you sycophants don’t even want to be taken seriously. I want Hard facts about what ALPA will bring to the table that we currently lack and how they plan to get us the large contractual gains we are being advertised.

The rest is just ‘feels’.

Sharklasers,

ACPA pilots are 30-40% behind our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation. We have continued the practice of putting downward pressure on WAWCON through the 2011 TA and most recently Cargo, the failed MOA and best fit. You may think all of this agreeing to lower wages is great. You might find it hard to believe that most don’t like the track record under ACPA. The membership by in large feels that it has no choice but to intervene to stop our current trajectory.

This is the problem. For the last two years an ALPA wave was developing. This wave was developing because of a lack of performance. Exactly what the 2014 governance review warned would happen if ACPA failed to change. But clearly the governance review wasn’t enough of a wake-up call. ACPA should have seen it as an existential threat. It had lots of time to reinvent itself as an actual union in the interim. But it didn’t. If it had we wouldn’t be here today.

[rudder]

ALPA hasn't been able to make any headway in Canada because of ACPA. ACPA is the old man on a 1 lane road driving 30kph in a 100 stretch blocking traffic and shaking their fist at everyone honking behind them.

Be interesting to see the results a year or 2 from now. AC management sadly has timing on their side for negotiations thanks to that beautiful 10 year deal putting you square in the middle of a forced recession with guys like Tiff Macklem spreading gospel about holding off on salary increases.

I just hope y'all don't vote YES on the first bar napkin to cross the table. You got miles to go. You win big and pickup the pace, we all win.

Again, unhelpful hyperbole.

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

I would like to see a cogent roadmap that explains what exactly we will be getting for our money from Herndon and then vote accordingly. No more laughable comparisons to old men and Botswana girl guides, sometimes it seems like you sycophants don’t even want to be taken seriously. I want Hard facts about what ALPA will bring to the table that we currently lack and how they plan to get us the large contractual gains we are being advertised.

The rest is just ‘feels’.

Sharklasers,

ACPA pilots are 30-40% behind our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation. We have continued the practice of putting downward pressure on WAWCON through the 2011 TA and most recently Cargo, the failed MOA and best fit. You may think all of this agreeing to lower wages is great. You might find it hard to believe that most don’t like the track record under ACPA. The membership by in large feels that it has no choice but to intervene to stop our current trajectory.

This is the problem. For the last two years an ALPA wave was developing. This wave was developing because of a lack of performance. Exactly what the 2014 governance review warned would happen if ACPA failed to change. But clearly the governance review wasn’t enough of a wake-up call. ACPA should have seen it as an existential threat. It had lots of time to reinvent itself as an actual union in the interim. But it didn’t. If it had we wouldn’t be here today.

Hiring the former AC COO as ACPA CEO certainly didn’t send the right message either.

Maybe Klaus Goersch is available…….

[Chateau]

Again, unhelpful hyperbole.

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

I would like to see a cogent roadmap that explains what exactly we will be getting for our money from Herndon and then vote accordingly. No more laughable comparisons to old men and Botswana girl guides, sometimes it seems like you sycophants don’t even want to be taken seriously. I want Hard facts about what ALPA will bring to the table that we currently lack and how they plan to get us the large contractual gains we are being advertised.

The rest is just ‘feels’.

Lol Sharky...

While you're hard on ALPA, you seem conspicuously very easy on ACPA

Are you suggesting WJ would have been better off with a company friendly association like WJPA?

Or perhaps a regional carrier is a comparison to a major? What if employees from a regional believe that they were treated better there? Yes, a major pays better. But is that in itself good enough?

It is a quantifiable fact that AC is the only legacy carrier in the country. Shouldn't carriers that were formed literally the same year, been through the same crises, compete globally for the same passengers, and even code share be at least in the same ballpark of compensation?

What has ACPA done for AC pilots and ultimately the Canadian aviation industry that makes it a sound decision to continue down this path beyond having members & former reps that can't seem to look beyond their brown noses & bruised egos?

All pilots in Canada deserve better.

Much better.

And that will be done through industry solidarity, strategy and resources

Aka...ALPA