ground schools canceled

[fish4life]

What is the union supposed to say?

[Tbayer2021]

What is the union supposed to say?

Imagine making excuses for management while simultaneously denouncing the union for lack of information. These guys couldn't be any deeper in the kool-aid if they tried.

[Vanguard]

[YouTube][/YouTube]

April 3rd is last ground school. Everyone else in hold pool.
All hiring and training on hold indefinitely.
For those outside looking in, stay put.
The ones already in, looks like they have a plan to stay afloat. Fingers crossed.

Flair management pilots already sharpening their resumes.

To the rest of the pilots, the industry is feeling for you. Airlines going under doesn’t benefit any of us. We feel for you, fly safe out there.

[Arnie Pye]

What is the union supposed to say?

Uh, how about Saturday afternoon sending out something like this:

"We have just received confirmation that 4 of our aircraft were repossessed. We only found out when you found out. At this time, we have no information to give you.
In the coming days we will meet with management to get further information and formulate a plan forward.
In the meantime, we don't want anyone to panic. We have received assurances that we will still be here on Monday. Here are some support numbers. blah, blah, blah.

PS There's a guy on AvCanada who will help you with career coaching and resume writing. "

[thepoors]

Wait a second people - we are forgetting one thing here. At least the CP had the decency to come on here and talk and answer questions about the hiring processes and environment at Flair. I think that says a lot about his/her character. With the current goings on and this pending lawsuit, I am sure they have been advised to not say too much.

Let’s not throw the person under the bus because they aren’t on here answering questions right now with all of this going on.

Oh boy the problem is he wasn't on here just answering questions, he was shilling. Sugar coating, lying, and worst of all putting lipstick on that pig of a contract with the now infamous "highest starting FO pay in the industry." That's why people were angered. He had a deflection or rebuttal for everything up until Friday.

And his number 2 @co-joe advocating for working without pay because he has such a great lifestyle and Flair could never fail. The silence now just goes to show how there was never anything backing all the rah-rah... #F50.

Like most here, I would like to see Flair come out of this and continue to drive competition in Canada. I feel for the guys who went there with promises of quick upgrades and the like. But hopefully this is a reality check for certain people in the company and the way they were going about it. You can only keep up the charades for so long.

[MKFlair]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

[fish4life]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Holy shit dude drink some more koolaid. Court ordered bailiffs don’t help seize an airplane without evidence.

[Bede]

@MKflair,
I certainly don't want flair to go under, but come-on man, a bit of critical thinking wouldn't hurt. Quoting a statement of claim (which has not been proven in court) is pretty meaningless. Pleadings are always the most one-sided version of events that you will get. It's been reported by numerous sources that flair has had to renegotiate terms for several months now. It's also pretty tough to have a court order a seizure without legitimate evidence.

I wish you guys all the best, but it may be wise to consider that your management isn't being 100% upfront with you.

[tbaylx]

When an operation loses 4 aircraft unexpectedly, I would assume most people can figure out that some planned ground schools would have to be canceled. Hiring will continue until April 3rd. After that we expect ground schools to begin again in early 2024.


Any pilot awarded and upgrades will still be given the opportunity, although there aren't really many that were qualified that hadn't already been upgraded. FO's continue to enjoy one of the best-starting pay in the industry currently, and like I previously said, even if growth under this contract remained stagnant, FO's wouldn't be affected as year 1-3 pay remains competitive. By that time we'll be into a new CBA and can address year 4 onwards.

Although growth has slowed for 2023, which will allow us to actually catch up on a few flight ops projects, Flair will continue to grow 2024 and beyond and provide career pilot jobs in the Canadian industry.

[cloak]

@MKflair,
I certainly don't want flair to go under, but come-on man, a bit of critical thinking wouldn't hurt. Quoting a statement of claim (which has not been proven in court) is pretty meaningless. Pleadings are always the most one-sided version of events that you will get. It's been reported by numerous sources that flair has had to renegotiate terms for several months now. It's also pretty tough to have a court order a seizure without legitimate evidence.

I wish you guys all the best, but it may be wise to consider that your management isn't being 100% upfront with you.

Good points, plus I would add that some of the damage control statements, and the lawsuit are meant to reassure the travelling public to continue booking Flair with confidence and prevent staff mass exodus. This goes to show that expanding into profitability is a myth that rarely comes true!

[CaptDukeNukem]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

How do you explain @thinmargins predictions from FEB 20th, 2023 that some of flair’s aircraft are going to be repossessed. If they are “prepaying” for March? how does someone in the leasing community know which tails will disappear from the operation?

Your point number 2 literally proves there was an issue with payments, regardless of whether flair discussed this with the lessor. And just because flair “communicated” that they were gonna be late with payments, it does not mean the lessor was in agreement with this principle. They also didn’t “indicate” that they were happy with delayed payments.

Security deposits don’t mean anything, it’s like damage deposits for rent. It’s just held in trust, until your landlord decides you punched one too many holes through the wall.

And this isn’t “airplane REPO”. The lessors seized the aircraft with legal authority, as stated in above posts. Also, why would RAICs be seized? If I was the crew on that flight, and someone took the logbook and C of R, (which is what happened) and told me I can’t fly this plane, I’d call dispatch and go home, and also keep my raic.

Don’t spew nonsense.

[flyinhigh]

I’m curious why four repos would cancel groundschools until 2024.

The average airline runs 6 crew per tail (12 pilots), which is only 48 pilots. For a company which is trying to recruit 20 a month, this would be a blip in the road and hiring would start again this summer.

Me thinks they finally woke up and need to slow roll the rest of the expansion as the piggy bank is depleted as airborne has proven.

[loose]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Oh please!!!! Why not be honest with your employees and tell them Flair also has been paying cash for fuel for the last few wks if not months because the vendor is sick and tired of payment issues and won’t extend credit anymore. We all sympathize and hate to see an airline struggle, it’s bad for the pilots cause industry wide but on this one the end is clear.

[MKFlair]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Holy shit dude drink some more koolaid. Court ordered bailiffs don’t help seize an airplane without evidence.

There were no court ordered bailiffs. A contract maintenance company showed up and took the aircraft.

[MKFlair]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Oh please!!!! Why not be honest with your employees and tell them Flair also has been paying cash for fuel for the last few wks if not months because the vendor is sick and tired of payment issues and won’t extend credit anymore. We all sympathize and hate to see an airline struggle, it’s bad for the pilots cause industry wide but on this one the end is clear.

Sorry, you are inaccurate. There has been no change to Flairs payment with their fuel providers.

[rudder]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Holy shit dude drink some more koolaid. Court ordered bailiffs don’t help seize an airplane without evidence.

There were no court ordered bailiffs. A contract maintenance company showed up and took the aircraft.

A contract maintenance company does not have the legal right to ‘take’(?) the aircraft. How is it the aircraft were surrendered by Flair? Anybody representing the legal right to take control of the asset would have to be in possession of the legal standing to do so. Hence, were they in possession of a court approved document giving them legal control of the aircraft? Or did they represent that the aircraft was being impounded based on a lien associated with a commercial agreement (lease) or a services agreement in default?

[Bede]

There were no court ordered bailiffs. A contract maintenance company showed up and took the aircraft.

I doubt it. TC cancelled the registrations immediately. To change a C of R you either need a bill of sale, lease contract, cancellation of a lease contract (signed by both parties) or legal documents indicating a change in custody and control. The only option would have been the last one.

[MKFlair]

Not completely accurate. MOst lease contract provide a PoA under certain conditions which is then utilized to lay the claim.

[rudder]

Not completely accurate. MOst lease contract provide a PoA under certain conditions which is then utilized to lay the claim.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail ... 141caab8dc

[MKFlair]

Not completely accurate. MOst lease contract provide a PoA under certain conditions which is then utilized to lay the claim.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail ... 141caab8dc

Hi Rudder, not sure the relevance but the lease may provide a power of attorney or similar in order to maintain the lessors rights. You can, essentially, claim and freeze an aircraft in location at which point the parties lawyers make final determinations.