Is AC considered a Legacy Airline anymore?

[ameliapilote]

Given the pay in comparison to North American legacy carriers, is AC even considered a legacy airline anymore?

The pilots look and dress like Delta, American and United but the new hire pay is less than Canadian regionals or Ultra Low Cost Carriers

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

US ULCCs flying 320s pay more than mighty 777 Captains

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

Is there a better term to describe AC now?


Low Cost Legacy: All the perks without the pay

Bush League Legacy: You get the hat of a legacy carrier with a contract that rivals the bush

[Tbayer2021]

Lol someone's trying to ruffle up some feathers. You don't even have to compare to American ULCCs. Some Q400 operators in the US are paying more than 777 captain at AC.

In terms of name, you'll be happy to hear that AC pilots are referred to as "The pirates of the North Atlantic", by our American brethren.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Given the pay in comparison to North American legacy carriers, is AC even considered a legacy airline anymore?

The pilots look and dress like Delta, American and United but the new hire pay is less than Canadian regionals or Ultra Low Cost Carriers

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

US ULCCs flying 320s pay more than mighty 777 Captains

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

Is there a better term to describe AC now?


Low Cost Legacy: All the perks without the pay

Bush League Legacy: You get the hat of a legacy carrier with a contract that rivals the bush

Second post?

You definitely are trying to stir the pot. I like it! Keep up the good work.

[bradleyscotts]

Given the pay in comparison to North American legacy carriers, is AC even considered a legacy airline anymore?

The pilots look and dress like Delta, American and United but the new hire pay is less than Canadian regionals or Ultra Low Cost Carriers

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

US ULCCs flying 320s pay more than mighty 777 Captains

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

Is there a better term to describe AC now?


Low Cost Legacy: All the perks without the pay

Bush League Legacy: You get the hat of a legacy carrier with a contract that rivals the bush

Legacy Airline is a US term for carriers that existed before the Airline Deregulation Act in 1978 and were affected by it. Air Canada falls within that description because it is the only current carrier that was around in 1978. Pilot pay has nothing to do with being a legacy carrier.

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

They are underpaid when compared to US Carriers. They are not making less than pilots at LAN, Air Mexico, Avianca, just to name a few in our side of the world.

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

You think working conditions for pilots at AC are 3rd world? come on now. They are not the greatest no argument there, but to compare it to the 3rd world tells me 2 things. You don't work at AC and have no idea what 3rd world conditions are. This statement is nothing more than hyperbole.

Is there a better term to describe AC now?

I would describe AC as the best 705 carrier in Canada. However, is up to each of us as individuals to decide if its best for us. Are you young and wanna see the world? Noone else in Canada will provide you with as much variety and overall compensation. If you are older and have financial responsibilities others don't its certainly not the best place for you.

The one thing we all have to do is leave every place we work at much better than when were first hired. Demographics at AC are changing, and while some can be extreme you can see this huge ship is starting to turn. We must put an end to concessionary bargaining. We must also stop the mentality that "we don't negotiate for pilots not on property" and finally the "I went through it as well so stop complaining" to justify the inadequacies of our contract.

WS pilots are in a position to lead the pilot profession in Canada out of the gutter. We must all support them in their fight for better wages and working conditions. Realize that they are fighting for all of us not just them.

[noreasterYHZ]

Given the pay in comparison to North American legacy carriers, is AC even considered a legacy airline anymore?

The pilots look and dress like Delta, American and United but the new hire pay is less than Canadian regionals or Ultra Low Cost Carriers

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

US ULCCs flying 320s pay more than mighty 777 Captains

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

Is there a better term to describe AC now?


Low Cost Legacy: All the perks without the pay

Bush League Legacy: You get the hat of a legacy carrier with a contract that rivals the bush

Legacy Airline is a US term for carriers that existed before the Airline Deregulation Act in 1978 and were affected by it. Air Canada falls within that description because it is the only current carrier that was around in 1978. Pilot pay has nothing to do with being a legacy carrier.

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

They are underpaid when compared to US Carriers. They are not making less than pilots at LAN, Air Mexico, Avianca, just to name a few in our side of the world.

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

You think working conditions for pilots at AC are 3rd world? come on now. They are not the greatest no argument there, but to compare it to the 3rd world tells me 2 things. You don't work at AC and have no idea what 3rd world conditions are. This statement is nothing more than hyperbole.

Is there a better term to describe AC now?

I would describe AC as the best 705 carrier in Canada. However, is up to each of us as individuals to decide if its best for us. Are you young and wanna see the world? Noone else in Canada will provide you with as much variety and overall compensation. If you are older and have financial responsibilities others don't its certainly not the best place for you.

The one thing we all have to do is leave every place we work at much better than when were first hired. Demographics at AC are changing, and while some can be extreme you can see this huge ship is starting to turn. We must put an end to concessionary bargaining. We must also stop the mentality that "we don't negotiate for pilots not on property" and finally the "I went through it as well so stop complaining" to justify the inadequacies of our contract.

WS pilots are in a position to lead the pilot profession in Canada out of the gutter.We must all support them in their fight for better wagesand working conditions. Realize that they are fighting for all of us not just them.

That should pretty much sums up the state of this "legacy carrier"

A year 1995 founded Low Cost Carrier is the company that has to lead the profession out of the gutter

AC is very much a Bush League operation mentality that operates like a global airline

[Montroyal]

Given the pay in comparison to North American legacy carriers, is AC even considered a legacy airline anymore?

The pilots look and dress like Delta, American and United but the new hire pay is less than Canadian regionals or Ultra Low Cost Carriers

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

US ULCCs flying 320s pay more than mighty 777 Captains

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

Is there a better term to describe AC now?


Low Cost Legacy: All the perks without the pay

Bush League Legacy: You get the hat of a legacy carrier with a contract that rivals the bush

Legacy Airline is a US term for carriers that existed before the Airline Deregulation Act in 1978 and were affected by it. Air Canada falls within that description because it is the only current carrier that was around in 1978. Pilot pay has nothing to do with being a legacy carrier.

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

They are underpaid when compared to US Carriers. They are not making less than pilots at LAN, Air Mexico, Avianca, just to name a few in our side of the world.

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

You think working conditions for pilots at AC are 3rd world? come on now. They are not the greatest no argument there, but to compare it to the 3rd world tells me 2 things. You don't work at AC and have no idea what 3rd world conditions are. This statement is nothing more than hyperbole.

Is there a better term to describe AC now?

I would describe AC as the best 705 carrier in Canada. However, is up to each of us as individuals to decide if its best for us. Are you young and wanna see the world? Noone else in Canada will provide you with as much variety and overall compensation. If you are older and have financial responsibilities others don't its certainly not the best place for you.

The one thing we all have to do is leave every place we work at much better than when were first hired. Demographics at AC are changing, and while some can be extreme you can see this huge ship is starting to turn. We must put an end to concessionary bargaining. We must also stop the mentality that "we don't negotiate for pilots not on property" and finally the "I went through it as well so stop complaining" to justify the inadequacies of our contract.

WS pilots are in a position to lead the pilot profession in Canada out of the gutter. We must all support them in their fight for better wages and working conditions. Realize that they are fighting for all of us not just them.

Lol!!!

Air Mexico 787 FOs make $55k per year??

Please tell me you actually know something about anything

Always amazed on the ignorance of Air Canada Pilots

At least we make more than Kalitta Air!

Actually...you don't

[dumpsterfire]

Calin used to compare AC to North American Legacy carriers

Then the data got so bad the narrative had to change

We went from comparing ourselves to Delta, to alternative US companies to now having to look at 3rd world countries

[cdnavater]

Given the pay in comparison to North American legacy carriers, is AC even considered a legacy airline anymore?

The pilots look and dress like Delta, American and United but the new hire pay is less than Canadian regionals or Ultra Low Cost Carriers

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

US ULCCs flying 320s pay more than mighty 777 Captains

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

Is there a better term to describe AC now?


Low Cost Legacy: All the perks without the pay

Bush League Legacy: You get the hat of a legacy carrier with a contract that rivals the bush

Legacy Airline is a US term for carriers that existed before the Airline Deregulation Act in 1978 and were affected by it. Air Canada falls within that description because it is the only current carrier that was around in 1978. Pilot pay has nothing to do with being a legacy carrier.

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

They are underpaid when compared to US Carriers. They are not making less than pilots at LAN, Air Mexico, Avianca, just to name a few in our side of the world.

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

You think working conditions for pilots at AC are 3rd world? come on now. They are not the greatest no argument there, but to compare it to the 3rd world tells me 2 things. You don't work at AC and have no idea what 3rd world conditions are. This statement is nothing more than hyperbole.

Is there a better term to describe AC now?

I would describe AC as the best 705 carrier in Canada. However, is up to each of us as individuals to decide if its best for us. Are you young and wanna see the world? Noone else in Canada will provide you with as much variety and overall compensation. If you are older and have financial responsibilities others don't its certainly not the best place for you.

The one thing we all have to do is leave every place we work at much better than when were first hired. Demographics at AC are changing, and while some can be extreme you can see this huge ship is starting to turn. We must put an end to concessionary bargaining. We must also stop the mentality that "we don't negotiate for pilots not on property" and finally the "I went through it as well so stop complaining" to justify the inadequacies of our contract.

WS pilots are in a position to lead the pilot profession in Canada out of the gutter.We must all support them in their fight for better wagesand working conditions. Realize that they are fighting for all of us not just them.

That should pretty much sums up the state of this "legacy carrier"

A year 1995 founded Low Cost Carrier is the company that has to lead the profession out of the gutter

AC is very much a Bush League operation mentality that operates like a global airline

I didn’t understand what bradleyscotts was saying the way you did, the fact of the matter is, that low cost founded in 1995 put downward pressure on the industry, however they are now first up to bat with an expired contract and a strike vote.
If they settle for 10% over three years, what chance does anyone else have when it’s their turn.
As for AC, you could almost look at them as two airlines, a NA carrier and an international carrier, which is where negotiations should go. The narrow body should be compared to any narrow body that operates into and out of Canada and the widebody should be compared to the same operations into and out of Canada, those would be paying the same fees, so apples to apples.

[rudder]

I didn’t understand what bradleyscotts was saying the way you did, the fact of the matter is, that low cost founded in 1995 put downward pressure on the industry, however they are now first up to bat with an expired contract and a strike vote.
If they settle for 10% over three years, what chance does anyone else have when it’s their turn.
As for AC, you could almost look at them as two airlines, a NA carrier and an international carrier, which is where negotiations should go. The narrow body should be compared to any narrow body that operates into and out of Canada and the widebody should be compared to the same operations into and out of Canada, those would be paying the same fees, so apples to apples.

On a currency adjusted basis, AC is winning the lottery in terms of the pilot labour cost component of CASM. Throw in pay rates and benefit expense, and that advantage grows even larger.

AC is not and never will be an LCC or ULCC. Any cost comparisons to that segment are meaningless.

[Tbayer2021]

Imagine comparing yourself to 3rd world country airlines to justify your position. Even then you're probably still wrong. Man that kool-aid they serve must be real strong. Is that what new hires are told these days? That they get paid better than Mexican and Colombian pilots? I guess they must have switched from the NHL of airlines to the Copa America of airlines.

[RochVoisine]

I'm surprised some people on here aren't using Air Tajikistan, Kenya Airways and Air Cubana as comparables and saying if you don't like it, just be happy you don't fly for Air Afghanistan

[eurotrash]

I'm surprised some people on here aren't using Air Tajikistan, Kenya Airways and Air Cubana as comparables and saying if you don't like it, just be happy you don't fly for Air Afghanistan

The Former YVR Base Chair who knew better than the recall results told me that he thinks we should be comparing ourselves to Air China

True Story

[Tavpi]

I'm surprised some people on here aren't using Air Tajikistan, Kenya Airways and Air Cubana as comparables and saying if you don't like it, just be happy you don't fly for Air Afghanistan

The Former YVR Base Chair who knew better than the recall results told me that he thinks we should be comparing ourselves to Air China

True Story

I mean, as a nation we are heading that way, so he ain't wrong.

[Winnikegger]

I'm surprised some people on here aren't using Air Tajikistan, Kenya Airways and Air Cubana as comparables and saying if you don't like it, just be happy you don't fly for Air Afghanistan

The Former YVR Base Chair who knew better than the recall results told me that he thinks we should be comparing ourselves to Air China

True Story

I mean, as a nation we are heading that way, so he ain't wrong.

Lol...well the Winnipeg base chair RW doesn't even show up to his base events anymore. He didn't even show up to yesterday's ALPA presentation & social in Winnipeg

No time to show up when he is fully displaced. Lots of time to do voluntary overtime though

The old guard could not exit stage left soon enough

[Dronepiper]

Does anyone have the aeromexico payscale? What about Qantas (Australia)?

Australia is probably the closest comparison to Canada. They actually have less airplanes and a smaller population, but I guarantee their widebody FO’s don’t make 54k a year.

[GeoffPilot]

Does anyone have the aeromexico payscale? What about Qantas (Australia)?

Australia is probably the closest comparison to Canada. They actually have less airplanes and a smaller population, but I guarantee their widebody FO’s don’t make 54k a year.

Australia competes on transborder with US airlines and tries to steal their passengers through 6th Freedom of air?

And no widebody FOs in the world make $54k per year besides the pilots at Air Canada

[Crewbunk]

Does anyone have the aeromexico payscale? What about Qantas (Australia)?

Australia is probably the closest comparison to Canada. They actually have less airplanes and a smaller population, but I guarantee their widebody FO’s don’t make 54k a year.

Australia competes on transborder with US airlines and tries to steal their passengers through 6th Freedom of air?

And no widebody FOs in the world make $54k per year besides the pilots at Air Canada

Does Qantas have new hires flying WideBody right seat? Serious question, as that really is the issue.

First year flat pay is $58,522. Whether one is Triple F/O, A220 F/O or 787 R/P, etc. Year 5 Triple F/O at AC makes $164,750, 12 year Triple F/O makes $207,162. 80 hour month, 2023 rates. No draft. No VO.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Does anyone have the aeromexico payscale? What about Qantas (Australia)?

Australia is probably the closest comparison to Canada. They actually have less airplanes and a smaller population, but I guarantee their widebody FO’s don’t make 54k a year.

Australia competes on transborder with US airlines and tries to steal their passengers through 6th Freedom of air?

And no widebody FOs in the world make $54k per year besides the pilots at Air Canada

Does Qantas have new hires flying WideBody right seat? Serious question, as that really is the issue.

First year flat pay is $58,522. Whether one is Triple F/O, A220 F/O or 787 R/P, etc. Year 5 Triple F/O at AC makes $164,750, 12 year Triple F/O makes $207,162. 80 hour month, 2023 rates. No draft. No VO.

Hold on a sec...

You're saying 4 yrs of flat pay isn't an issue?

The geniuses at ACPA recommended this scheme in the 10 yrs deal that made 50% of pilots now on property indentured servants.

This needs to be killed once and for all

[Crewbunk]

Hold on a sec...

You're saying 4 yrs of flat pay isn't an issue?

The geniuses at ACPA recommended this scheme in the 10 yrs deal that made 50% of pilots now on property indentured servants.

This needs to be killed once and for all

Hold on a sec …..

Where did I say flat pay wasn’t an issue? It’s a huge issue, well known among the ranks of Air Canada’s pilots. But, it is in the contract and will remain until the contract is renegotiated. Or …. until AC can no longer staff new hire classes, which doesn’t appear to be happening any time soon.

What the issue really is, is the turn of events that places a 1-4 year pilot in the right seat of a wide body. Things are moving so quickly, with hiring at an all time high, these anomalies pop up. I don’t think anyone foresaw a set of circumstances where with hiring as it is, retiring as it is and modest expansion that a quarter of the pilots would be on flat pay.

The last time I saw anything similar was about 25 years ago when new-hires were placed as 767 F/Os as no one bid the bottom, as the bottom was doing nothing but Rapidairs.

[jpilot77]

Hold on a sec...

You're saying 4 yrs of flat pay isn't an issue?

The geniuses at ACPA recommended this scheme in the 10 yrs deal that made 50% of pilots now on property indentured servants.

This needs to be killed once and for all

Hold on a sec …..

Where did I say flat pay wasn’t an issue? It’s a huge issue, well known among the ranks of Air Canada’s pilots. But, it is in the contract and will remain until the contract is renegotiated. Or …. until AC can no longer staff new hire classes, which doesn’t appear to be happening any time soon.

What the issue really is, is the turn of events that places a 1-4 year pilot in the right seat of a wide body. Things are moving so quickly, with hiring at an all time high, these anomalies pop up. I don’t think anyone foresaw a set of circumstances where with hiring as it is, retiring as it is and modest expansion that a quarter of the pilots would be on flat pay.

The last time I saw anything similar was about 25 years ago when new-hires were placed as 767 F/Os as no one bid the bottom, as the bottom was doing nothing but Rapidairs.

They’ll never run out of candidates to fill new hire courses. But they are starting to worry about the experience going forward. The 4 years of flat pay is a problem for the company in attracting high experience pilots.