Speed limit order within 10 NM

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hey folks!

Been having a debate about the requirement to be at 200 kts or less within 10 NM of an airport unless authorized to do so by ATS.

CAR 602.32 states

602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall

(a) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots if the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL; or

(b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.

Regarding (b) : it says within 10 of a controlled aerodrome.

So my argument is that if an aerodrome served by an MF, but surrounded by a class E control zone… this restriction doesn’t apply due to the aerodrome not being controlled.

Or am I incorrect because it is surrounded from surface to 3000 agl by controlled airspace?

Would be great if ATS Or FSS would provide some insight.

[photofly]

The answer is perfectly clear: it says controlled aerodrome, not controlled airspace.

[lownslow]

“You had me grounding 230 on radar? Must be a tailwind up there…”

[CaptDukeNukem]

“You had me grounding 230 on radar? Must be a tailwind up there…”

Not so easy to lie with Ads-b

[photofly]

Ads-b reports position, ground speed etc. don’t think it’s plumbed into the pitot and static pressure tubes.

[digits_]

“You had me grounding 230 on radar? Must be a tailwind up there…”

"In both directions?"

[CaptDukeNukem]

Ads-b reports position, ground speed etc. don’t think it’s plumbed into the pitot and static pressure tubes.

Not plumbed Into the lines directly of course but definitely connected to the Air Data Computers of modern airliners. Also, I heard YYZ ATC tell air Canada once to slow to 170 or less until the FAF, then he queried the pilots why they weren’t doing 170 but 180 instead. And the pilots replied there’s a tailwind, to which he said: “I can see your airspeed sir”

[tsgarp]

We had this debate at work a while back. I dug into the regs and found the definition of a controlled aerodrome, it’s right at the start of the CARs.

controlled aerodrome means an aerodrome at which an air traffic control unit is in operation; (aérodrome contrôlé)

[tsgarp]

We had this debate at work a while back. I dug into the regs and found the definition of a controlled aerodrome, it’s right at the start of the CARs.

controlled aerodrome means an aerodrome at which an air traffic control unit is in operation; (aérodrome contrôlé)

No ATC unit at the aerodrome = uncontrolled, so 200 KIAS limit does not apply.

[NotDirty!]

MF is not a controlled aerodrome…. So you’re free to maintain 250 as late as you dare! (Lownslow did not exactly live up to his username when we managed 250 until 4nm final, IIRC)

[NotDirty!]

Ads-b reports position, ground speed etc. don’t think it’s plumbed into the pitot and static pressure tubes.

Standard ADS-B does not include airspeed data, but there are systems that relay your FMS routing and MCP selections for speed/altitude/heading/etc. (A lot of this may require ADS-C).
I seem to recall that this was a bit of a problem a few years ago, when EuroControl started violating crews for having routing in their active FMS flight plan that they had not yet been cleared for (ie they had a domestic routing programmed, despite their clearance limit technically being an oceanic exit point). So they were able to charge them for a gross navigational error, despite not actually reaching that point in the flight plan yet (ensuring your route includes a discontinuity until cleared otherwise is the answer here)!

What I am not sure is whether this system cares about your actual speed, or just the speed you have selected on the MCP… as long as you have 200 or less selected within 10 miles are you good, so can you be in the process of deceleration?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Thanks guys! I appreciate the work!

[‘Bob’]

Ads-b reports position, ground speed etc. don’t think it’s plumbed into the pitot and static pressure tubes.

It will be coming very soon. What one has to remember is that all of this is digitized already for the FDR. All that's missing is an interface to ADS-B, which is where things like altitude selection come from that ATC can already see.

[Mach .28]

Here is a snapshot of some of the data ADSB will transmit. Indicated airspeed seems to shows in Canada but not the US for Version 2. I doubt the controllers have access to this picture real time but that is the data available to TC/NavCan/Public etc.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.

It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.

[photofly]

I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.

It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.

The next interation will include a robot arm on the flight deck that ATC can control, so they can set the autopilot how they wanted you to set it in the first place.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Here is a snapshot of some of the data ADSB will transmit. Indicated airspeed seems to shows in Canada but not the US for Version 2. I doubt the controllers have access to this picture real time but that is the data available to TC/NavCan/Public etc.

This was great info! Thanks for the snapshot.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.

It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.

I agree. It’s quite simple really….. if ATC says 170 to KIREX, just do as asked. Technology doesn’t allow much lying these days.

Also, block growth…. Slow me down any day, every day.

[flyinhigh]

I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.

It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.

I agree. It’s quite simple really….. if ATC says 170 to KIREX, just do as asked. Technology doesn’t allow much lying these days.

Also, block growth…. Slow me down any day, every day.

Unless your catching a commute flight home..

[CaptDukeNukem]

I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.

It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.

I agree. It’s quite simple really….. if ATC says 170 to KIREX, just do as asked. Technology doesn’t allow much lying these days.

Also, block growth…. Slow me down any day, every day.

Unless your catching a commute flight home..

Well, that’s a whole other monster right there my friend.