AIP is dogshit

[rudder]

So just to be clear:

Last year of CBA top scale NB CA will be approx $305 per credit hour ($453 overtime rate?).

Company will match pilot contribution up to 10% to a registered retirement plan (pilot contributions fully tax deductible at a marginal tax rate on average 50%).

All work belongs to WJ Seniority List pilots. One AOC.

Still have FLICA.

I wouldn’t call that a train wreck. I would call it the best deal in Canada circa 2023.

[daedalusx]

So just to be clear:

Last year of CBA top scale NB CA will be approx $305 per credit hour ($453 overtime rate?).

Company will match pilot contribution up to 10% to a registered retirement plan (pilot contributions fully tax deductible at a marginal tax rate on average 50%).

All work belongs to WJ Seniority List pilots. One AOC.

Still have FLICA.

I wouldn’t call that a train wreck. I would call it the best deal in Canada circa 2023.

For a few months. Then our brothers and sisters at AC going to get their pound of flesh. The current contract at AC is irrelevant as a comparison to this AIP.
A MeToo clause would have been a game changer. Imagine if Flair matched the Westjet increases and then WJ matching the AC increases ... But no, can’t have that. It’s Canadian aviation so we’re used to bending over with no courtesy reacharounds and we consider a 15% increase closing the gap on the North American “standard”.
Here’s a thought, how come the MEC didn’t unanimously vote in favour of this AIP ? How many voted against and what was their reasons ?
It’s okay. Now that the scope is captured, the “real gains” will happen for sure on the next negotiations in 4 years, unless there’s another recession, carbon reduction policy, armed conflict, black swan event, new open border immigration policy, etc etc. Then more excuses, concessions ... “But we’ll get em’ next time! You’ll see!”
Look at all the American carriers gains in 2022-2023, the time to make hay was now.

[Tolip]

So just to be clear:

Last year of CBA top scale NB CA will be approx $305 per credit hour ($453 overtime rate?).

Company will match pilot contribution up to 10% to a registered retirement plan (pilot contributions fully tax deductible at a marginal tax rate on average 50%).

All work belongs to WJ Seniority List pilots. One AOC.

Still have FLICA.

I wouldn’t call that a train wreck. I would call it the best deal in Canada circa 2023.

Its. Huge disserveice to everyone to be on here quoting the "top scales" of this AIP. The top earners have always done fine, and they will continue to do fine. But this does nothing for junior pilots, other then a bare minimum inflation adjustment. And remember that 10% match is only for a RRSP or TFSA, it will put zero additional dollars in a pilots hand year over year, it will be locked away earning very small gains. The Cash match program was the greatest part of the WSP program, that would give a guaranteed 20% raise to every pilot at the end of each year. That program is now gone. I cant stress that enough, I dont understand why that's not getting more attention.

Also, what do you guys think about a no vote to this AIP. And restarting negotiations this summer WITH AC all under the ALPA banner?

[daedalusx]

Also, what do you guys think about a no vote to this AIP. And restarting negotiations this summer WITH AC all under the ALPA banner?

Not a bad idea but wouldn’t there be a risk of Onex going to the feds to force a deal ?

[rudder]

Courtesy of the WJ pilots, the AC pilots are looking at a minimum 25% pay increase. They will ask for more - and may achieve that - but any third party that might become involved will see WJ+ as the floor, not the ceiling.

What the AC pilots need to do is clean up the multiple AOC/discounted pay rates issues. And then focus on lifestyle. AC pilots have always relied on CAR’s to determine their scheduling rules. That has to change to something that produces better pairings and better schedules for the majority, not the minority.

There is lots to be done at big red. But the WJ deal is a good start.

[Aeroncachump]

I must say after listening to the Vancouver podcast that the contract is not as horrible as it first seems. Maybe my earlier suspicious were unnecessary.

Might even have voted 'yes' if I were a WestJet pilot.

Also kudos to make that info publicly available.

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Interview? It was one presentation in a series of roadshows, put on by the MEC and negotiating committee. It highlights what's new to CA2, and changes from CA1, followed by a Q&A from members in attendance. I didn't sense any hype, and though I appreciate the explanations and clarity as to the why's and hows, my decision will not be made based on what was said up on that stage. My decision to vote yes or no will be based on my understanding of the TA document in its entirety.

[Tolip]

I must say after listening to the Vancouver podcast that the contract is not as horrible as it first seems. Maybe my earlier suspicious were unnecessary.

Might even have voted 'yes' if I were a WestJet pilot.

Also kudos to make that info publicly available.

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Interview? It was one presentation in a series of roadshows, put on by the MEC and negotiating committee. It highlights what's new to CA2, and changes from CA1, followed by a Q&A from members in attendance. I didn't sense any hype, and though I appreciate the explanations and clarity as to the why's and hows, my decision will not be made based on what was said up on that stage. My decision to vote yes or no will be based on my understanding of the TA document in its entirety.

I think your getting the roadshows and the podcasts confused. The podcast is a completely different platform set up on YouTube where they Interview MeC members about the AIP. And it is extremely biased, even the road shows are extremely biased from the things I have herd comming out from them. The union has accepted this deal and now they have to defend it and get it voted in. You have to calculate the wages your self, imagine what it will do to your pay check to loose the cash match programs and think about how much it will actually help WJ pilots to minimize to growth of swoop (remember, no one has actually said that swoop as an identity will close) and if that's worth it. I dont this goes nearly mbsr enough.

And if it get voted down, I know that if AC and WJ negotiate all under the same banner with ALPA at the same time, they could have the power to really change things.

[Tolip]

Also, what do you guys think about a no vote to this AIP. And restarting negotiations this summer WITH AC all under the ALPA banner?

Not a bad idea but wouldn’t there be a risk of Onex going to the feds to force a deal ?

Its been proven that we are not an essential service and that not allowing us to perform job action is unconstitutional..but all that aside, just because (in this senario) AC and WJ were to go into negotiations around the same time, this summer. Doesnt mean they would both perform job action at the same time (or at all)

[fish4life]

I think you are misunderstanding the pay
Previously
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in

Under the TA
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr
115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
Also when I asked a friend of mine at WJ he said they still have a non registered option other than the TFSA or RRSP

[Tolip]

I think you are misunderstanding the pay
Previously
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in

Under the TA
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr
115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
Also when I asked a friend of mine at WJ he said they still have a non registered option other than the TFSA or RRSP

The reason your math doesnt work, is because you are equating every percentage made to your WSP contribution to an equal percentage of earnings at year end. But that is NOT true, it is ONLY true in the case of the cash savings plan, which had as much as a 120% return on investment. And the Nom registered option you speak of is just another version of rrsp. Tbe Cash match program was AXED, and without it, this means that the 15.5% raise is actually a potential pay CUT.

Previous TA
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in (that's true, because at year end every percentage of the cash match program would be returned ( CASH IN HAND)

Under the AIP
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr ( that's true because it is a direct pay in hand cash raise)

115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
This is where you go wrong, because the reality is with rrsp and TSFA for every dollar that gets put in, you will AT MAXIMUM get a 15% return on that, you are assuming a 100% return like the cash match program. So with this AIP you are assuming the WSP will turn your wage from 115.5\hr to 139.11$/hr. That's a difference of 23.61$ per hour (as per your example) but again that's assuming a 100 % return, lets look at this if we use a 15% return, so I'll reduce your established earnings my 85%. 15% of the 23.61 % is 3.5$. Add that to your established 115.5 $ and you would get 119.9$ per hour.

LESS then the original wage of the TA. And again that is because with the cash match program it is 100% to 120% GARONTEED return. Where as in the stock market its 15 AT BEST not guaranteed.

Also in the old TA you would recieve the money cash in hand at year end. Essentially making your salary the 120$ per hour as mentioned above.

With the AIP your wage will actually really just be the 115.5$per hour because all gaines recieved thru the program will really only be assecable down the line as it will all be locked away and invested.

I hope that makes sence.

[ant_321]

I think you are misunderstanding the pay
Previously
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in

Under the TA
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr
115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
Also when I asked a friend of mine at WJ he said they still have a non registered option other than the TFSA or RRSP

The reason your math doesnt work, is because you are equating every percentage made to your WSP contribution to an equal percentage of earnings at year end. But that is NOT true, it is ONLY true in the case of the cash savings plan, which had as much as a 120% return on investment. And the Nom registered option you speak of is just another version of rrsp. Tbe Cash match program was AXED, and without it, this means that the 15.5% raise is actually a potential pay CUT.

Previous TA
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in (that's true, because at year end every percentage of the cash match program would be returned ( CASH IN HAND)

Under the AIP
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr ( that's true because it is a direct pay in hand cash raise)

115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
This is where you go wrong, because the reality is with rrsp and TSFA for every dollar that gets put in, you will AT MAXIMUM get a 15% return on that, you are assuming a 100% return like the cash match program. So with this AIP you are assuming the WSP will turn your wage from 115.5\hr to 139.11$/hr. That's a difference of 23.61$ per hour (as per your example) but again that's assuming a 100 % return, lets look at this if we use a 15% return, so I'll reduce your established earnings my 85%. 15% of the 23.61 % is 3.5$. Add that to your established 115.5 $ and you would get 119.9$ per hour.

LESS then the original wage of the TA. And again that is because with the cash match program it is 100% to 120% GARONTEED return. Where as in the stock market its 15 AT BEST not guaranteed.

Also in the old TA you would recieve the money cash in hand at year end. Essentially making your salary the 120$ per hour as mentioned above.

With the AIP your wage will actually really just be the 115.5$per hour because all gaines recieved thru the program will really only be assecable down the line as it will all be locked away and invested.

I hope that makes sence.

You are misunderstanding. I’m not going to spend 20 minutes writing a post to explain it to you because I’m not sure I could explain it very well. You should sit down with a union rep and get them to explain it to you.

[Tolip]

I think you are misunderstanding the pay
Previously
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in

Under the TA
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr
115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
Also when I asked a friend of mine at WJ he said they still have a non registered option other than the TFSA or RRSP

The reason your math doesnt work, is because you are equating every percentage made to your WSP contribution to an equal percentage of earnings at year end. But that is NOT true, it is ONLY true in the case of the cash savings plan, which had as much as a 120% return on investment. And the Nom registered option you speak of is just another version of rrsp. Tbe Cash match program was AXED, and without it, this means that the 15.5% raise is actually a potential pay CUT.

Previous TA
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in (that's true, because at year end every percentage of the cash match program would be returned ( CASH IN HAND)

Under the AIP
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr ( that's true because it is a direct pay in hand cash raise)

115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
This is where you go wrong, because the reality is with rrsp and TSFA for every dollar that gets put in, you will AT MAXIMUM get a 15% return on that, you are assuming a 100% return like the cash match program. So with this AIP you are assuming the WSP will turn your wage from 115.5\hr to 139.11$/hr. That's a difference of 23.61$ per hour (as per your example) but again that's assuming a 100 % return, lets look at this if we use a 15% return, so I'll reduce your established earnings my 85%. 15% of the 23.61 % is 3.5$. Add that to your established 115.5 $ and you would get 119.9$ per hour.

LESS then the original wage of the TA. And again that is because with the cash match program it is 100% to 120% GARONTEED return. Where as in the stock market its 15 AT BEST not guaranteed.

Also in the old TA you would recieve the money cash in hand at year end. Essentially making your salary the 120$ per hour as mentioned above.

With the AIP your wage will actually really just be the 115.5$per hour because all gaines recieved thru the program will really only be assecable down the line as it will all be locked away and invested.

I hope that makes sence.

You are misunderstanding. I’m not going to spend 20 minutes writing a post to explain it to you because I’m not sure I could explain it very well. You should sit down with a union rep and get them to explain it to you.

This is a very realistic idea of how it could all breakdown, the reason why we haven't seen anyone from the union talk more about this or break it down for us during the Roadshows or on the Podcasts is because they KNOW that the answer is NOT favorable. You may recieve more then 15% return on investment with this new plan, and down the line it may equate to a positive sum. But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program. And the 15.5 % "raise" then redistributes the money from year end onto each month by months pay check and also removes the pilots need to give up portions of his own pay check month over month into the WSP. All of this will give the Illusion of a pay raise on a month to month basis. But it comes with the loss of the guaranteed 20% cash match at the year end. It's a BAD deal. I'm not saying that it wont be a raise for pilots, but it won't be a 15.5% raise as it's being advertise. Not really, not with the loss of the Cash match program. I really think WJ pilots need to think alittle more about how this loss of program effects them

[Bede]

But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program.

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

[fish4life]

Between spelling errors and financial comprehension I think we found a Swoop captain

[Aeroncachump]

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Interview? It was one presentation in a series of roadshows, put on by the MEC and negotiating committee. It highlights what's new to CA2, and changes from CA1, followed by a Q&A from members in attendance. I didn't sense any hype, and though I appreciate the explanations and clarity as to the why's and hows, my decision will not be made based on what was said up on that stage. My decision to vote yes or no will be based on my understanding of the TA document in its entirety.

I think your getting the roadshows and the podcasts confused. The podcast is a completely different platform set up on YouTube where they Interview MeC members about the AIP. And it is extremely biased, even the road shows are extremely biased from the things I have herd comming out from them. The union has accepted this deal and now they have to defend it and get it voted in. You have to calculate the wages your self, imagine what it will do to your pay check to loose the cash match programs and think about how much it will actually help WJ pilots to minimize to growth of swoop (remember, no one has actually said that swoop as an identity will close) and if that's worth it. I dont this goes nearly mbsr enough.

And if it get voted down, I know that if AC and WJ negotiate all under the same banner with ALPA at the same time, they could have the power to really change things.

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Interview? It was one presentation in a series of roadshows, put on by the MEC and negotiating committee. It highlights what's new to CA2, and changes from CA1, followed by a Q&A from members in attendance. I didn't sense any hype, and though I appreciate the explanations and clarity as to the why's and hows, my decision will not be made based on what was said up on that stage. My decision to vote yes or no will be based on my understanding of the TA document in its entirety.

I think your getting the roadshows and the podcasts confused. The podcast is a completely different platform set up on YouTube where they Interview MeC members about the AIP. And it is extremely biased, even the road shows are extremely biased from the things I have herd comming out from them. The union has accepted this deal and now they have to defend it and get it voted in. You have to calculate the wages your self, imagine what it will do to your pay check to loose the cash match programs and think about how much it will actually help WJ pilots to minimize to growth of swoop (remember, no one has actually said that swoop as an identity will close) and if that's worth it. I dont this goes nearly mbsr enough.

And if it get voted down, I know that if AC and WJ negotiate all under the same banner with ALPA at the same time, they could have the power to really change things.

Fair enough. I don't listen to the podcasts, and I don't tune in for the pilot or the all company calls. And when Bernie was on TV, I didn't take anything he said as anything more than the posturing and rhetoric it was meant to be during a tense negotiation. If anyone is basing the next 4 years of their career on the above, and not what is written in black and white, they are doing themselves and their coworkers a disservice.

This TA by the way, falls directly inline with the results of the UNH survey data: job security and career progression (scope), fix take home pay, QOL (scheduling).

[Tolip]

But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program.

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

The cash savings plan or CSP was the best part of the Westjet savings plan WSP. Anyone not enrolled FULLY into this program does not know what they are missing, and I have to question your basic sense of investing. This program would take what ever you invest as a principle and then return it to you at year end ALONg with a 100-120% match. So if I loaned them 8k, at the years end I would recieve the 8k back plus another 8k as the match, guaranteed ZERO risk, 100% return on investment, and it can be even higher 120% return on investment. The rrsp or tsfa options are great but they will NEVER provide returns that are even close to the CSP. Loosing this program is a massive loss, and for those actually wise enough to use it. This 15.5 % raise will nearly outweigh the loss from the program.

[digits_]

But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program.

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

The cash savings plan or CSP was the best part of the Westjet savings plan WSP. Anyone not enrolled FULLY into this program does not know what they are missing, and I have to question your basic sense of investing. This program would take what ever you invest as a principle and then return it to you at year end ALONg with a 100-120% match. So if I loaned them 8k, at the years end I would recieve the 8k back plus another 8k as the match, guaranteed ZERO risk, 100% return on investment, and it can be even higher 120% return on investment. The rrsp or tsfa options are great but they will NEVER provide returns that are even close to the CSP. Loosing this program is a massive loss, and for those actually wise enough to use it. This 15.5 % raise will nearly outweigh the loss from the program.

Isn't that what the 9% extra raise and the 10% wsp is compensating for?

[Tolip]

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

The cash savings plan or CSP was the best part of the Westjet savings plan WSP. Anyone not enrolled FULLY into this program does not know what they are missing, and I have to question your basic sense of investing. This program would take what ever you invest as a principle and then return it to you at year end ALONg with a 100-120% match. So if I loaned them 8k, at the years end I would recieve the 8k back plus another 8k as the match, guaranteed ZERO risk, 100% return on investment, and it can be even higher 120% return on investment. The rrsp or tsfa options are great but they will NEVER provide returns that are even close to the CSP. Loosing this program is a massive loss, and for those actually wise enough to use it. This 15.5 % raise will nearly outweigh the loss from the program.

Isn't that what the 9% extra raise and the 10% wsp is compensating for?

That is what they are saying, and its true that it will absolutely lessen the blow. But make no mistake, a loss of a program that guarantees a up too 120% return on investment year over year. For this program where you will only earn a 15% return on investment (MAYBE. Tbe stock market isnt doing well right now). That's a difference of 105% at years end. So no, that extra 9% does not offset the losses. Not even close. The CSP is so amazing most people can't even wrap their heads around how awesome it is, it is NO wonder the company made it a priority to kill it off the first chance they got.

[Bede]

The cash savings plan or CSP was the best part of the Westjet savings plan WSP. Anyone not enrolled FULLY into this program does not know what they are missing, and I have to question your basic sense of investing. This program would take what ever you invest as a principle and then return it to you at year end ALONg with a 100-120% match. So if I loaned them 8k, at the years end I would recieve the 8k back plus another 8k as the match, guaranteed ZERO risk, 100% return on investment, and it can be even higher 120% return on investment. The rrsp or tsfa options are great but they will NEVER provide returns that are even close to the CSP. Loosing this program is a massive loss, and for those actually wise enough to use it. This 15.5 % raise will nearly outweigh the loss from the program.

Isn't that what the 9% extra raise and the 10% wsp is compensating for?

That is what they are saying, and its true that it will absolutely lessen the blow. But make no mistake, a loss of a program that guarantees a up too 120% return on investment year over year. For this program where you will only earn a 15% return on investment (MAYBE. Tbe stock market isnt doing well right now). That's a difference of 105% at years end. So no, that extra 9% does not offset the losses. Not even close. The CSP is so amazing most people can't even wrap their heads around how awesome it is, it is NO wonder the company made it a priority to kill it off the first chance they got.

Then according to your math, the 10% of company contribution in this TA, match-free, would result in an infinite return on investment.

I’ve really tried following what you’re saying but your math is completely wrong and you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the most basic of investing concepts. Sorry to be harsh.

[countdown]

But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program.

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

CSP was great. Loan to the company, lose it all if they go bankrupt, blah blah. It was the best of the evils available. We had to sit on it for a year anyway. Could have given it to Manulife/Blackrock and let them reap all the MER's, or let the cash pile up. I get a $21k payday every three months and then invest it where I want. Have to see, but now that it's going away I guess It will be money market funds, or as close to cash as I can get.

" nobody cares more about your money than you do" All investments companies are vehicles whose sole purpose is to take as much of your money as they can. Get the cash. Invest in your future and learn how to put your money to work for yourself and your family.