I am still ready -

[Elton87]

For all the touting of "the end of discounted Canadian pilot labour" to "tip of the spear for the Canadian aviation industry", this AIP is sorely disappointing.

Granted we don't know what was asked for at the bargaining table, but the fact that the CEO publicly spoke out, that doubling to match USA wages was unrealistic, would have suggested that this expectation was laid out at the beginning. To go from at least 100% increase to 15.5% is obscenely divergent, notwithstanding barely matching past inflation rates. A complete 180 from what was proudly briefed by union leaders on the 11 May national informational picket.

The subsequent 3, 3, and 2.5% for year 2-4 as a pay increase is simply a market standard for inflation. It may result in a 25.6% increase at end of 4 years, but even after 4 years from now, we don't get halfway towards USA wages from today! Which by then, could and would likely have accelerated further ahead. Don't forget, especially if you're at the top of your payscale with no further pay levels to climb, this subsequent 2.5 to 3% is simply matching inflation. If recent history is anything to base our data upon, you might still be losing money. At the end of the day, 15.5% (without yet subtracting previous and current inflation) is the only pay increase we're actually receiving. I get it, a 100% increase was impossible to achieve. But a (perhaps my) realistic expectation was hovering at around 40%. Yes, the current 15.5% raise will not be weighted equally, and that it allows the company to attract new pilots, but you're simply taking from one group to feed another, and ultimately it is the company's perogative to attract talent, not the union. Furthermore, top scale pilots are therefore already guaranteed to receive less than 15.5% increase - let's call it 10%. So, we basically came in guns blazing ready to strike for anything less than a 10% raise.

The spiel about WSP is noise in my opinion. While certainly helpful for folks who prefer cash in hand, or those who need the money such as new hires who can't afford to put 20% of their pay cheque and get by, the main difference is whether or not you have to lend the company money for a year. Having 9.1% wage increase shifted from WSP very simply speaking does not produce net gain. In fact, with a fruitful wage increase, I would be more than happy to lend the company 20% and get my returns the following year. It is the minority who would use this unmatched WSP to reinvest, albeit now at your own risk, that would be putting this change to good use.

The scope looks like it is in the right direction. The increased meal cost replacement (MCR), not per diem per se (unless something changed), puts us above the current federal meal allowance, assuming you are on the road for the full 24hrs. The increased uniform allowance is interesting, perhaps some of us go thru clothing more quickly than others, or that we can expect quite the hat. Certainly, great gains were made, but it simply does not excuse the marginal 15.5% increase. I would personally rather forgo the distractions of uniforms allowance, per diem etc. and simply focus on a decent wage.

I just feel that the whole narrative given from the union, the company and even the majority of public sentiment had us leaning towards a Canadian aviation industrial 'revolution'. ALPA clearly recognises our situation and supports our endeavour to break through this artificial pay ceiling in Canada. The increased stipend of 2480USD monthly is actually more than what our new hires would have taken home in wages (if this doesn't say something about our wage, what else will). Our peers at home and South of the border were rooting for us not just in words or spirit but in action at the informational pickets. They know that a rising tide floats all boats. The public has been more informed of the continued sacrifices and risks that go into becoming and remaining in this profession. Our pilots were certainly ready to stand up and lead this charge with the overwhelming strike vote just a month ago. Sentiments did not change at the 11th hour with everyone ready to 'go to war'. This was to be THE turning point for all Canadian pilots.

Who knows what happened. Perhaps the damage from a strike during the long weekend would have done irreconcilable damage to the WestJet brand and nullified all efforts from the union and company, therefore standards were lowered to meet timelines. Maybe the unstoppable force has truly met an immovable object. Whatever it was, we were ready, we are ready. We had momentum and opportunity, and it got called off for 15.5%. I am still ready, but I surely wasn't ready to see this executive summary. The 'North American Standard' phrase has been quietly removed. Who called this change? How did we bow down from that? The saving grace is that this AIP was not unanimously voted in by the representatives (I would expect it to be mentioned otherwise). Therefore, someone representing us from the union at the table still recognises the disparity between what was asked and received.

Regardless, I sincerely thank our union leaders and volunteers. I recognise the time, effort, 'blood' and sweat poured into these negotiations, where we do not see fully the considerations that go into these decisions behind closed doors. It is a thankless job and you can be certain that there will be unhappy people no matter what.

It is truly sad, what the Canadian aviation industry has become. We were part of the 'golden age' of aviation, innovating and manufacturing aircraft since the first word war. We didn't invest in our industry then and we still don't invest in our pilots now. The canadian airlines and the military are starving for pilots. We are bleeding experience, leaving the inexperienced to train the next generation. The intangible consequences of our actions may not be perceivable now, but when calamity hits, it will be far too late.

I can't say that the AIP 'speaks for itself' to me. I will certainly have to hear what the union shares during the later roadshows and make a more informed decision then. However, I am glad that the union requested we keep the yellow and pink lanyards on our neck, because it is a good reminder for all of us now that we still have a voice, and to be ready. Right now, my vote is simply no. And I am still ready. While I anxiously await the results, I have sent my application in to big red. Perhaps they will leverage on our 'gains' and be the ones to lead the charge for the country. In parallel, I am putting in my application for an EB-2 visa. The cost of an FAA ATP CTP and license conversion, as well as an immigration lawyer will be easily made back, and then perhaps I will commute from Canada.

----

If you share the same sentiments, please share this message through your channels, maybe we might still make a difference...

[sullecpt]

The fact the union agreed in principle to this is crazy. You hit the nail on the head. The entire industry thought this was going to be the big money moment in Canadian aviation. Sadly, this shows extreme weakness and it will be hard to carry momentum now. Even with a no vote, everything looks like a compromise not a gain.

Nothing ever changes in Canadian aviation. Like you said, best to leave here. AC will never change their wages either, why would they when this is the 'best' WestJet can do.

ALPA Canada, despite their hard work, has done nothing significant for any airline in Canada in recent history. Meanwhile in USA....

[Chelsea Handler]

The fact the union agreed in principle to this is crazy. You hit the nail on the head. The entire industry thought this was going to be the big money moment in Canadian aviation. Sadly, this shows extreme weakness and it will be hard to carry momentum now. Even with a no vote, everything looks like a compromise not a gain.

Nothing ever changes in Canadian aviation. Like you said, best to leave here. AC will never change their wages either, why would they when this is the 'best' WestJet can do.

ALPA Canada, despite their hard work, has done nothing significant for any airline in Canada in recent history. Meanwhile in USA....

This doesn't show weakness. Anything rather than a solid 98 percent no vote will show weakness. The union and company don't want a strike, so this was put on the table to extend the process. If the company see a no vote from over 90 percent, the message is clear. FUPM.

[Maritimer]

The fact the union agreed in principle to this is crazy. You hit the nail on the head. The entire industry thought this was going to be the big money moment in Canadian aviation. Sadly, this shows extreme weakness and it will be hard to carry momentum now. Even with a no vote, everything looks like a compromise not a gain.

Nothing ever changes in Canadian aviation. Like you said, best to leave here. AC will never change their wages either, why would they when this is the 'best' WestJet can do.

ALPA Canada, despite their hard work, has done nothing significant for any airline in Canada in recent history. Meanwhile in USA....

This doesn't show weakness. Anything rather than a solid 98 percent no vote will show weakness. The union and company don't want a strike, so this was put on the table to extend the process. If the company see a no vote from over 90 percent, the message is clear. FUPM.

You are in the vast minority. I'd bet this passes with 80%+

[RippleRock]

Unless I'm missing the mark completely, the AIP looks like a turkey, walks like a turkey, and sounds like one. Was the MEC endorsement unanimous?

Instead of a home run, it looks like more of a base hit, not even an ground rules double. The entire first year "raise" offered has already been consumed by inflation, so that's gone, plus you're left completely vulnerable to a "pay decrease" should the COL rate stay above 3%. It should have been COL+2% or COL+3%. Not factoring in COL is very disturbing in this climate. This AIP is almost garranteed to make -no material gain- on on the pay front at least. Hard to fathom that this is OK.

Everything else hinges on "base wages", pension and the like, so if your foundation is weak, everything else is by extension. Don't underestimate what inflation has done to base pay.

I don't think there will -ever- be a better time to make serious improvements, summer is coming. Who accepts the first offer buying a car or house? No one.

Only ACPA pilots vote yes to the first tabled offer. Look where that got us. Anyways, good luck.

[TheLastonetoknow]

The fact the union agreed in principle to this is crazy. You hit the nail on the head. The entire industry thought this was going to be the big money moment in Canadian aviation. Sadly, this shows extreme weakness and it will be hard to carry momentum now. Even with a no vote, everything looks like a compromise not a gain.

Nothing ever changes in Canadian aviation. Like you said, best to leave here. AC will never change their wages either, why would they when this is the 'best' WestJet can do.

ALPA Canada, despite their hard work, has done nothing significant for any airline in Canada in recent history. Meanwhile in USA....

This doesn't show weakness. Anything rather than a solid 98 percent no vote will show weakness. The union and company don't want a strike, so this was put on the table to extend the process. If the company see a no vote from over 90 percent, the message is clear. FUPM.

You are in the vast minority. I'd bet this passes with 80%+

Senior company guy alert!

Totally inadequate TA. So how bad was the first offer then?

[Chelsea Handler]

Screenshot_20230520-131654.png (383.8 KiB) Viewed 3888 times

Reporter-Mr Rousseau how will you be able to find 1000 new pilots in the coming years?

CEO-Well our competitors pilots are about to vote yes to an agreement that will secure more applicants for the next four years.

[Maritimer]

This doesn't show weakness. Anything rather than a solid 98 percent no vote will show weakness. The union and company don't want a strike, so this was put on the table to extend the process. If the company see a no vote from over 90 percent, the message is clear. FUPM.

You are in the vast minority. I'd bet this passes with 80%+

Senior company guy alert!

Totally inadequate TA. So how bad was the first offer then?

Actually no, I'm not "that" senior. What were you expecting? 50% pay increase? Let's be realistic here

[Dockjock]

ACPA pilots did not yes. In fact we voted no 98%, recalled the MEC, fired the negots committee, and tried to start over. The company locked us out and got the government to force us back to work with the Protecting Air Services Act, which ended up awarding us by force our TA with some minor modifications.

So your AIP is done, it’s agreed. Ratification doesn’t mean shit. This is it I’m afraid.

[Elton87]

After all said and done, WestJet top scale captain (year 12) will still be less than Air Transat's year 11 top scale at $244,406.40.

$206,934.30 current × 1.155 = $239,009.10
And this already assumes the full average 15.5% increase, even though it is expected to be weighted less.

I hope / wish it is not as pessimistic as I am reading it. Refer to attached table.

[RippleRock]

You are in the vast minority. I'd bet this passes with 80%+

Senior company guy alert!

Totally inadequate TA. So how bad was the first offer then?

Actually no, I'm not "that" senior. What were you expecting? 50% pay increase? Let's be realistic here

The reality of this AIP is that the first year "raise" is consumed immediately by inflation, so ITS NET ZERO in year one. Future inflation can not be ignored, or not factored into the equasion. This AIP may be net --NEGATIVE ZERO-- if inflation hovers at 3% over the next 4 years, and chances are pretty good on that one with Justin in power till 2025 spending like a drunken gold miner.

There are a lot of intermediary settling points between ZERO and 50%. Lots. Why they settled on net zero after the obvious inflation factor is beyond me.

[Elton87]

The 'North American Standard'

I am genuinely curious.

We kept hearing it up until the 11th hour. Now, that phrase has gone quiet. Where is it in this AIP? Can we hand on heart say that any meaningful progress was made towards it? If not, then why was the phrase loosely thrown in if this is where we ended up at?

This reads as:
1) Either it was believed from the beginning that Canadian pilots should never be comparatively paid; or
2) It is believed now.

[daedalusx]

What a shame.
“We want the North American Standard ! No more cheap Canadian pilots”

A few moments later.

“Be happy with this, we could have gotten nothing!”

“The payscale? Nah, we don’t want to publish it yet, we need to do roadshows to *explain* it to you.”

It’s easy to see who caved and it wasn’t Onex.

[Canpilot7]

ACPA pilots did not yes. In fact we voted no 98%, recalled the MEC, fired the negots committee, and tried to start over. The company locked us out and got the government to force us back to work with the Protecting Air Services Act, which ended up awarding us by force our TA with some minor modifications.

So your AIP is done, it’s agreed. Ratification doesn’t mean shit. This is it I’m afraid.

Seems every thread has one of these. Seriously, please do some research. Lack of informative opinions absolutely wrecks the industry's bargaining power.

Think anything has changed since then? Any legal changes? Any government comments? Perhaps even a chance in government? Any other groups go through this with the current government?

There are a hundred reasons why it's ignorant to bring up the AC debacle. You guys got screwed, that really is brutal. There shouldn't be anyone saying you didn't - because you did. But it has nothing to do with anyone else, nor does it have anything to do with AC's next contract negotiation.

Is there a group at AC that pushes this narrative, becuause it comes up a lot in these threads while it never even gets discussed in other industries.

[Canpilot7]

You are in the vast minority. I'd bet this passes with 80%+

Senior company guy alert!

Totally inadequate TA. So how bad was the first offer then?

Actually no, I'm not "that" senior. What were you expecting? 50% pay increase? Let's be realistic here

Alright I'll bite. With pilots like you negotiating against yourself because you don't think you're worth more, no the gains aren't realistic. Economically? Obviously there's nothing stopping them.

Go ahead with a 50% raise over the four years and what's going to happen? 1) the WestJet pilots will make less than American pilots giving their company that advantage on every route. The rest of their costs are theirs to sort out. 2) AC pilots wouldn't take less, so it's not like the primary competition is going to be an issue. 3) presuming that low self worth means WestJet is scared of flair, how many pilots is the company going to have if WestJet and AC got 50% raises? Think anyone stays with that pay structure?

[Dry Guy]

Didn't a lot bargaining capital go to scope and eliminating Swoop? That's a pretty important thing.

[rudder]

ACPA pilots did not yes. In fact we voted no 98%, recalled the MEC, fired the negots committee, and tried to start over. The company locked us out and got the government to force us back to work with the Protecting Air Services Act, which ended up awarding us by force our TA with some minor modifications.

So your AIP is done, it’s agreed. Ratification doesn’t mean shit. This is it I’m afraid.

Seems every thread has one of these. Seriously, please do some research. Lack of informative opinions absolutely wrecks the industry's bargaining power.

Think anything has changed since then? Any legal changes? Any government comments? Perhaps even a chance in government? Any other groups go through this with the current government?

There are a hundred reasons why it's ignorant to bring up the AC debacle. You guys got screwed, that really is brutal. There shouldn't be anyone saying you didn't - because you did. But it has nothing to do with anyone else, nor does it have anything to do with AC's next contract negotiation.

Is there a group at AC that pushes this narrative, becuause it comes up a lot in these threads while it never even gets discussed in other industries.

The Minister of Labour was there. The head of the FMCS was there. I have seen this movie before. Front row seat.

Maybe it won’t be Jagmeet that joins the Libs in the vote. Maybe it will be the Conservatives (again).

Pilots should vote their conscience. But be situationally aware.

[Canpilot7]

ACPA pilots did not yes. In fact we voted no 98%, recalled the MEC, fired the negots committee, and tried to start over. The company locked us out and got the government to force us back to work with the Protecting Air Services Act, which ended up awarding us by force our TA with some minor modifications.

So your AIP is done, it’s agreed. Ratification doesn’t mean shit. This is it I’m afraid.

Seems every thread has one of these. Seriously, please do some research. Lack of informative opinions absolutely wrecks the industry's bargaining power.

Think anything has changed since then? Any legal changes? Any government comments? Perhaps even a chance in government? Any other groups go through this with the current government?

There are a hundred reasons why it's ignorant to bring up the AC debacle. You guys got screwed, that really is brutal. There shouldn't be anyone saying you didn't - because you did. But it has nothing to do with anyone else, nor does it have anything to do with AC's next contract negotiation.

Is there a group at AC that pushes this narrative, becuause it comes up a lot in these threads while it never even gets discussed in other industries.

The Minister of Labour was there. The head of the FMCS was there. I have seen this movie before. Front row seat.

Maybe it won’t be Jagmeet that joins the Libs in the vote. Maybe it will be the Conservatives (again).

Pilots should vote their conscience. But be situationally aware.

You don't think the labour minister was involved in the public union talks? He himself has come out and specifically stated he doesn't believe in taking away the right to a strike. Same with the PM. Them being there is meant to push for a deal. But legislating a deal is a) political suicide after their comments b) based on past court rulings, probably not possible to hold in court and c) easy to ignore. Is WestJet going to fire their entire pilot group? This same song and dance has played out already this year, nevermind before that. The right to strike isn't going away unless they let it.

I never thought people would be scared of a former news anchor being in the room.....

[Dockjock]

I was responding to the comment that ACPA pilots voted yes. Which wasn’t true.

[Elton87]

Didn't a lot bargaining capital go to scope and eliminating Swoop? That's a pretty important thing.

If scope was quantified with a % increase, was it worth 85% to match north American standard? Or even 35% to at least get us halfway there?

Frankly speaking, unequal wages under the group of companies was an (ethical) dilemma that needed to be resolved for its own reasons. This should not be muddied with the already depressed wages we face.

[co-joe]

Didn't a lot bargaining capital go to scope and eliminating Swoop? That's a pretty important thing.

This was the linch pin, If they couldn't get this in writing, no gains would matter because papa Onex would just paint the whole fleet Pink, or Orange and nobody would have the power to stop them. But we were all hoping WS MEC had the cojones to go after real wage increases. From here it looks like all they got was an inflation adjustment.

[Dry Guy]

If scope was quantified with a % increase, was it worth 85% to match north American standard? Or even 35% to at least get us halfway there?

Maybe even more than 85%. Without scope you have nothing. The wage increase on top was a nice bonus. In 4 years you can gain much more.

[Bede]

After all said and done, WestJet top scale captain (year 12) will still be less than Air Transat's year 11 top scale at $244,406.40.

$206,934.30 current × 1.155 = $239,009.10
And this already assumes the full average 15.5% increase, even though it is expected to be weighted less.

I hope / wish it is not as pessimistic as I am reading it. Refer to attached table.

Sorry are you even a WJ pilot? It’s a 24% increase not 15%. Granted some of it came from the WSP but your comparing it to a wage that never had 20%. You need to do apples to apples.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Sorry are you even a WJ pilot? It’s a 24% increase not 15%. Granted some of it came from the WSP but your comparing it to a wage that never had 20%. You need to do apples to apples.

You have six eggs. You crack two, cook two, and eat two. How many eggs do you have left?

Based on your comment, you would say no more eggs. Someone who can see the shells in a shell game would say four.

To make my point clear, if you are taking 10% that you were already making and having held for a year and getting it right away, you are not making 10% more. The increase is only 15%, which is +0.5% over inflation over the past four years.

[Elton87]

After all said and done, WestJet top scale captain (year 12) will still be less than Air Transat's year 11 top scale at $244,406.40.

$206,934.30 current × 1.155 = $239,009.10
And this already assumes the full average 15.5% increase, even though it is expected to be weighted less.

I hope / wish it is not as pessimistic as I am reading it. Refer to attached table.

Sorry are you even a WJ pilot? It’s a 24% increase not 15%. Granted some of it came from the WSP but your comparing it to a wage that never had 20%. You need to do apples to apples.

Yes, I am.

Please read my original post again pertaining to WSP changes and what are its actual benefits (Para 4). Or refer to dontcallmeshirley's analogy.

For what it's worth, if you choose to view this 9.1% as a new wage increase, your total increase is not 24%, (15.5 + 9.1 = 24.5%) but rather 26% (115.5 x 1.091 = 126.015).

This is great news if you were not using the 20% WSP benefit previously (yes, I know someone personally who isn't) because without doing anything (matching), your pay will actually increase; or

For anyone else who cannot see how this money already belonged to you.