WestJet AIP

[ALPAisAwesome]

Wow good job ALPA! That's what all those awesome ALPA resources deliver. Can't wait to see what we get after our strike!

[FelixGustof]

It was an impressive campaign and great to see them secure 1 Operating Certificate which will change the fabric of aviation in this country

Hopefully all airlines join ALPA Moving forward so pilots don't make the same mistakes again. Scope needs to be priority #1

Things are finally improving in this country

Well done WestJet pilots

[RippleRock]

It was an impressive campaign and great to see them secure 1 Operating Certificate which will change the fabric of aviation in this country

Hopefully all airlines join ALPA Moving forward so pilots don't make the same mistakes again. Scope needs to be priority #1

Things are finally improving in this country

Well done WestJet pilots

Are you two for real??? Seriously.

Take inflation out of the equasion and their wage uplift is ZERO. Yes, the agreement is for NO GAIN on the wage end of things when the COL is factored in. NADA.

All Bernie (MEC Chair) could talk about was securing a "North American standard wage". There is now a 100% difference between the American AIP wages and Westjet.

One hundred percent. Let that sink in a moment.

[canadian_aviator_4]

American Airlines at top narrow body of equivalent to $640 k CAD (475k USD) to $300 K CAD…..possibly at Westjet. Wow, so close.

[Man_in_the_sky]

American Airlines at top narrow body of equivalent to $640 k CAD (475k USD) to $300 K CAD…..possibly at Westjet. Wow, so close.

to match, you don't take account of the exchange rate...

[canadian_aviator_4]

American Airlines at top narrow body of equivalent to $640 k CAD (475k USD) to $300 K CAD…..possibly at Westjet. Wow, so close.

to match, you don't take account of the exchange rate...

Still extremely far off, even without exchange rate. This makes it even more embarrassing to be a Canadian pilot.

[Fidget]

Sorry but that’s not what was being touted. I was expecting a lot more. We better do better than that shit.

[FNGYYZ]

AC pilots better be ready

Going to take a great battle for them if they want those US wages...

Relying on a low cost carrier to do the work for them is not good strategy

[Bede]

It was an impressive campaign and great to see them secure 1 Operating Certificate which will change the fabric of aviation in this country

Hopefully all airlines join ALPA Moving forward so pilots don't make the same mistakes again. Scope needs to be priority #1

Things are finally improving in this country

Well done WestJet pilots

Are you two for real??? Seriously.

Take inflation out of the equasion and their wage uplift is ZERO. Yes, the agreement is for NO GAIN on the wage end of things when the COL is factored in. NADA.

All Bernie (MEC Chair) could talk about was securing a "North American standard wage". There is now a 100% difference between the American AIP wages and Westjet.

One hundred percent. Let that sink in a moment.

That's nonsense. You're not factoring the gains involved in eliminating Swoop (resulting in 100 upgrades), merger with SWG, loss of license insurance, all of the QoL and scheduling gains, etc. This nails all of the wants this pilot group wanted. I can assure you the NC could have secured higher wage rates, albeit at the expense of all the QoL and scope improvements that we secured.

I'm not sure if you're a WJ pilot, but it's funny how quickly people like you abandoned the "I support my MEC" mantra.

[Blueontop]

It was an impressive campaign and great to see them secure 1 Operating Certificate which will change the fabric of aviation in this country

Hopefully all airlines join ALPA Moving forward so pilots don't make the same mistakes again. Scope needs to be priority #1

Things are finally improving in this country

Well done WestJet pilots

Are you two for real??? Seriously.

Take inflation out of the equasion and their wage uplift is ZERO. Yes, the agreement is for NO GAIN on the wage end of things when the COL is factored in. NADA.

All Bernie (MEC Chair) could talk about was securing a "North American standard wage". There is now a 100% difference between the American AIP wages and Westjet.

One hundred percent. Let that sink in a moment.

That's nonsense. You're not factoring the gains involved in eliminating Swoop (resulting in 100 upgrades), merger with SWG, loss of license insurance, all of the QoL and scheduling gains, etc. This nails all of the wants this pilot group wanted. I can assure you the NC could have secured higher wage rates, albeit at the expense of all the QoL and scope improvements that we secured.

I'm not sure if you're a WJ pilot, but it's funny how quickly people like you abandoned the "I support my MEC" mantra.

Look Bede, you do make some good points, the other gains were just bringing WJ back to the baseline minimum though, I do not understand why the seemingly vast majority of Canadian pilots in these bargaining situations always feel they have take the first offer. Look at the American pilots and the ones who have resoundingly rejected their first offers. We never take first offers on our homes but when it comes the years long deal worth millions damn where do I sign fast enough seems to be the mentality. “Can’t ever do better than this we better just take it put a positive spin it”. If it’s not resounding wow! across the Canadian landscape it should be an easy no.

This is a start. With these raises barely covering inflation and who knows how inflation will continue over the next 4 years it is completely irresponsible to accept this deal. I implore WJ pilots to take a really hard think and don’t take the first offer. I never understood why flair pilots took the first deal and WJ will be mocked harder than flair is if they accept this.

At the end of the day they need us more than we need them,that should be the beginning, middle and end of our negotiation mindset. When management gets negotiate during a time like covid that’s how they stick it to us, with no quarter, no mercy and no remorse.

[rudder]

AC pilots better be ready

Going to take a great battle for them if they want those US wages...

Relying on a low cost carrier to do the work for them is not good strategy

I see the AC pilots getting on the order of 20-25% in a 3 year deal (actually 2 years plus a day for the 3rd increase). Extra years should come at a premium not a discount.

The end of Rouge LOU. Rouge will simply be a paint job flown by regular Airbus pilots at regular Airbus rates.

No FreightCo pay rates. Flat pay 2 years (and associated equipment freeze). Year 1 no lower than $90k. Year 2 no lower than $115k.

And the AC pilots should seriously look at FLICA. Huge lifestyle gains (drops/swaps/adds).

Sad part is that even these gains would leave the AC pilots well behind their legacy counterparts. But it would put them at the top of the CDN food chain which is where they belong.

[Bede]

Look Bede, you do make some good points, the other gains were just bringing WJ back to the baseline minimum though, I do not understand why the seemingly vast majority of Canadian pilots in these bargaining situations always feel they have take the first offer. Look at the American pilots and the ones who have resoundingly rejected their first offers. We never take first offers on our homes but when it comes the years long deal worth millions damn where do I sign fast enough seems to be the mentality. “Can’t ever do better than this we better just take it put a positive spin it”. If it’s not resounding wow! across the Canadian landscape it should be an easy no.

It's not the first offer. That offer was given to our NC back in September. This is the most juice that our NC could squeeze out. Could they squeeze more? Maybe, but I doubt it. I do know that that gamble didn't work out for the AC pilots in 2013 who ended up in final offer selection and lost $50M over the previous TA. Would that happen to WJ? Maybe, maybe not, but if my MEC says this is the best deal, I'll trust them.

[Ironman2909]

Look Bede, you do make some good points, the other gains were just bringing WJ back to the baseline minimum though, I do not understand why the seemingly vast majority of Canadian pilots in these bargaining situations always feel they have take the first offer. Look at the American pilots and the ones who have resoundingly rejected their first offers. We never take first offers on our homes but when it comes the years long deal worth millions damn where do I sign fast enough seems to be the mentality. “Can’t ever do better than this we better just take it put a positive spin it”. If it’s not resounding wow! across the Canadian landscape it should be an easy no.

It's not the first offer. That offer was given to our NC back in September. This is the most juice that our NC could squeeze out. Could they squeeze more? Maybe, but I doubt it. I do know that that gamble didn't work out for the AC pilots in 2013 who ended up in final offer selection and lost $50M over the previous TA. Would that happen to WJ? Maybe, maybe not, but if my MEC says this is the best deal, I'll trust them.

The AC pilot lost way more than 50 mil in FOS.... think more above 100 mil$ and above. The only thing disappointing in this TA is all the hype that the ALPA WJ MEC started to make with the strike vote that they had in their card. People (outsiders as much as some WJ pilots were expecting way more. IMHO, I do not think a minute that this TA will stop the hemorrhage of pilots leaving the WJ ship to go to AC.

[airbussy]

WestJet ALPA had to spend a lot of capital on things like scope, bringing Swoop pilots to ML pay and other tidbits like a TAFB ratio. All things already existing in the AC pilot contract. I'm pretty optimistic going forward AC ALPA will be able to capitalize on the current trend of money injection into contracts and since we don't have to pay for things WJ pilots did, that leaves a lot to put in other places in the contract. Like pay. At the end of the day WJ is not a massive global international airline. They have a few 787s, sure. But to compare them to AC is kinda silly. That said, now that they are going to be making a lot more on the 737 than AC's highest paid NB pilots on the A320 that should help set the tone and the bar for negotiations coming soon for AC pilots. I won't vote yes on anything less than 290-320 year 1-12 NB CA wages and 390-420 1-12 WB CA wages. The FO wages will figure themselves out with a industry standard percent of captain pay around 60%. RPs can go away for good. Also give us better vacation credit, better min duty period (5 hours +) and a commitment to improve the pairing construction and stop doing so much unstacking when making schedules. There needs to be some kind of benefit to being Sr on a type, and not have your flying scooped away because the computer liked it better in BH#123's schedule.

[co-joe]

...IMHO, I do not think a minute that this TA will stop the hemorrhage of pilots leaving the WJ ship to go to AC.

I agree with this 100%. AC and Porter for that matter will have zero problem filling groundschools with Encore and WS mainline pilots moving forward unfortunately. You can add in downgraded Swoopers, and WG pilots, and round it out with WG FO's watching short upgrades, high credit flying, and high pay deployments evaporate. If the bump and flush happens with WG pilots based in desirable locations who knows what effect that will have on morale, granted that's not till 2025.

[RippleRock]

It was an impressive great to see them secure 1 Operating Certificate which will change the fabric of aviation in this country

Hopefully all airlines join ALPA Moving forward so pilots don't make the same mistakes again. Scope needs to be priority #1

Things are finally improving in this country

Well done WestJet pilots

Are you two for real??? Seriously.

Take inflation out of the equasion and their wage uplift is ZERO. Yes, the agreement is for NO GAIN on the wage end of things when the COL is factored in. NADA.

All Bernie (MEC Chair) could talk about was securing a "North American standard wage". There is now a 100% difference between the American AIP wages and Westjet.

One hundred percent. Let that sink in a moment.

That's nonsense. You're not factoring the gains involved in eliminating Swoop (resulting in 100 upgrades), merger with SWG, loss of license insurance, all of the QoL and scheduling gains, etc. This nails all of the wants this pilot group wanted. I can assure you the NC could have secured higher wage rates, albeit at the expense of all the QoL and scope improvements that we secured.

I'm not sure if you're a WJ pilot, but it's funny how quickly people like you abandoned the "I support my MEC" mantra.

Dude. Remember you are on the AC thread.

I'm ONLY referring to base hourly rate. The American carriers have made many gains in other areas as well. They have also secured scope, PLUS they have made large advancements in their hourly rates.

Your AIP hourly rates are net ZERO when inflation is factored in. It couldn't be closer to zero they used an accountant to calculate the AIP uplift percentage. At 3% and 2% for years three and four, you open yourselves completely to a backward slide if rates stay above 3%. Do the math.

[Bede]

I'm ONLY referring to base hourly rate. The American carriers have made many gains in other areas as well. They have also secured scope, PLUS they have made large advancements in their hourly rates.

Your AIP hourly rates are net ZERO when inflation is factored in. It couldn't be closer to zero they used an accountant to calculate the AIP uplift percentage. At 3% and 2% for years three and four, you open yourselves completely to a backward slide if rates stay above 3%. Do the math.

The top hourly rate will be around $280/hr. Show me another Canadian carrier with that NB rate.

[RippleRock]

I'm ONLY referring to base hourly rate. The American carriers have made many gains in other areas as well. They have also secured scope, PLUS they have made large advancements in their hourly rates.

Your AIP hourly rates are net ZERO when inflation is factored in. It couldn't be closer to zero they used an accountant to calculate the AIP uplift percentage. At 3% and 2% for years three and four, you open yourselves completely to a backward slide if rates stay above 3%. Do the math.

The top hourly rate will be around $280/hr. Show me another Canadian carrier with that NB rate.

Yes, you guys are at the top of the worst paid pilots on the planet, but not by very much. Good work. What is Transat's NB rate BTW???

The promise by your MEC was a " North American standard wage " ......that's a direct quote. Note the use of the word "wage", that's not a working condition or a scope issue, a vacation increase or a pension modification.

I still don't think you're getting what I'm saying though. Your new hourly wage is perfectly adjusted to be fully consumed by inflation. You guys aren't sliding backward anymore like we are, but you aren't advancing either. Your buying power (hourly rate-wise) in 2026 will be exactly the same as it was in 2018. That's no "win" as some people are spinning.

It doesn't take an accounting diploma to see it. Simply subtract the Bank of Canada inflation rates over the last four years, project forward at 3% for three more years, and voila. Poof....NO RAISE. A raise means to "rise above", what the AIP contains is simply an "inflation correction" wrongly being branded as a raise.

If you guys are happy with that, then I'm just glad you're happy.

[Curiousflyer]

WestJet pilots will never have this much negotiating capital ever again. The industry is firing on all cylinders, you’re losing pilots at a faster rate than ever before. This is the best time to negotiate, and you got nothing for it. Nothing.

The $400m gains touted by the MEC requires some clever accounting, probably to the tune of, “ If Swoop grew to 30 tails and WestJet shrunk by 30 tails - that’s the dollar value.”

Your best “gains” are cost neutral items. Seriously, swapping DH’s? Mid pairing trip trade? 10% WSP goes to wages? These are all cost neutral items.

Swoop started up operations 5 years ago, what’s to stop Onex from starting another airline in 3 years so you can spend all your negotiations on capturing scope, wage parity, and more cost neutral gains some warped into “gains”.

This is a laughable deal for WJ pilots.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Swoop started up operations 5 years ago, what’s to stop Onex from starting another airline in 3 years so you can spend all your negotiations on capturing scope, wage parity, and more cost neutral gains some warped into “gains”.

Scope