WestJet AIP

[RippleRock]

There's certainly nothing "industry leading" or ground-breaking, even for a "Canadian standard contract", let alone an American one.

From what info is available, most of the highlights of the AIP are already in other Canadian carriers contracts. The top hourly wage is barely above Transat. Wish I was wrong. If I am, please correct me.

I'm sure Kevin V. and Alexis are "high-fiving" over this deal.

[GeoffPilot]

Swoop started up operations 5 years ago, what’s to stop Onex from starting another airline in 3 years so you can spend all your negotiations on capturing scope, wage parity, and more cost neutral gains some warped into “gains”.

Scope

Lol...

More like laugh, cry, laugh

I hope everyone sees the clean up job ALPA had to to here from the damage done by a company friendly WJPA

Scope is poorly understood by pilots in this country. There is nothing more important than protecting your flying

WJ pilots made some fatal mistakes in the early days of allowing Swoop to exist

This contract's primary focus was securing industry standard scope

It is now up to AC pilots who already have scope to push for a true North American standard with pay & scheduling

[flyingfool]

There's certainly nothing "industry leading" or ground-breaking, even for a "Canadian standard contract", let alone an American one.

From what info is available, most of the highlights of the AIP are already in other Canadian carriers contracts. The top hourly wage is barely above Transat. Wish I was wrong. If I am, please correct me.

I'm sure Kevin V. and Alexis are "high-fiving" over this deal.

It's all about how you frame it

Alexis was influenced by the delusion of a Board that likely thought WJ pilots were already paid enough and 5 percent was a reasonable raise.

"WJ Captains make over $200k/yr! Why are they complaining? And FOs will get their one day!! We even pay for their hotels!"

Truth is industry executives have had such a good deal on pilots for so long in this country (and previously the US), it's a psychological barrier for them to see a changed environment

The WJ pilot group & leadership showed incredible resolve & unity and were front page news. They caused a stink. You have to respect their organizing & educating.

This pilot group has made incredible strides

Now it's time to see what AC pilots are made of

[Fanblade]

Are you two for real??? Seriously.

Take inflation out of the equasion and their wage uplift is ZERO. Yes, the agreement is for NO GAIN on the wage end of things when the COL is factored in. NADA.

If you look at the contract as a whole the WJ pilots have made significant gains above inflation. They just didn’t spend the gains in the place you would have preferred to see then.

Did they close the gap? Well their wage was 222CAD for a 12 year 737 CA. The current high water mark in the US is roughly 335USD. At $285 the Westjet pilots look to have significantly closed the gap to me.

For us to move the needle as much as they just did we will need to exceed US wages before FX.

It took the Delta pilots more than a decade and multiple contracts to recover from Bankruptcy in the mid 2000’s.

[noreasterYHZ]

I'm not really sure what people expected here

You have a recently unionized pilot group, that was founded on a low cost carrier structure with a 93% strike vote with zero scope that was going to get Delta dollars in one swoop

The big boys of the south have been unionized for decades, already have scope, put out 98% plus strike votes and show up en masses when asked to

If you want US wages, you need to act like US pilots. Alpa will support with everything they got, but no one is doing this for Canadians.

Strong solidarity, huge turnouts, near 100% strike votes, and don't allow scabs internally without scope

[rudder]

Are you two for real??? Seriously.

Take inflation out of the equasion and their wage uplift is ZERO. Yes, the agreement is for NO GAIN on the wage end of things when the COL is factored in. NADA.

If you look at the contract as a whole the WJ pilots have made significant gains above inflation. They just didn’t spend the gains in the place you would have preferred to see then.

Did they close the gap? Well their wage was 222CAD for a 12 year 737 CA. The current high water mark in the US is roughly 335USD. At $285 the Westjet pilots look to have significantly closed the gap to me.

For us to move the needle as much as they just did we will need to exceed US wages before FX.

Using Bede’s estimate, top scale NB CA at WJ in final year of CBA will be around $300/hr. Company contributions to retirement will be 10% (not included in hourly rate). WJ pilots have recaptured all of the work (including their new owners acquisition spree). No b-scale. No freight rates. No Swoop LOU.

Let’s see how the AC pilots make out later this year.

[Bede]

From what info is available, most of the highlights of the AIP are already in other Canadian carriers contracts.

Like training outside the block, 10% discount on freight flying, max days worked and a 2.83 hr vacation?

The top hourly wage is barely above Transat. Wish I was wrong. If I am, please correct me.

Let’s do this: let’s wait until the TA is out and then we’ll compare contracts.

[RippleRock]

From what info is available, most of the highlights of the AIP are already in other Canadian carriers contracts.

Like training outside the block, 10% discount on freight flying, max days worked and a 2.83 hr vacation?

The top hourly wage is barely above Transat. Wish I was wrong. If I am, please correct me.

Let’s do this: let’s wait until the TA is out and then we’ll compare contracts.

So let me get this straight. You guys are on contract number two since 2018, and you want to do a direct comparison of your shiny new 2023 deal with our ancient one that others (not me), said yes to 10 years ago??

What point would you be making? The bargaining climate then and now is like comparing Mars to Venus.

FYI we will be entering a bargaining phase imminently.

[fish4life]

The biggest problem AC pilots have always focused on is hourly rates like they are the only thing in a contract which is why pretty much everyone has better QOL than us. I’d personally take 5% for training inside the block and better vacation credit, a few months ago I worked 17 days and had a week of vacation FFS.
In canada with our ridiculously high tax system give me 2013 pay rates adjusted for inflation with massive changes in other places like 5.5 credit min day, 5.5 vacation, training inside the block, 1:3 trip guarantee.

[Tigger]

The biggest problem AC pilots have always focused on is hourly rates like they are the only thing in a contract which is why pretty much everyone has better QOL than us. I’d personally take 5% for training inside the block and better vacation credit, a few months ago I worked 17 days and had a week of vacation FFS.
In canada with our ridiculously high tax system give me 2013 pay rates adjusted for inflation with massive changes in other places like 5.5 credit min day, 5.5 vacation, training inside the block, 1:3 trip guarantee.

BIG plus 1. There are a lot of QOL things that need improving here, you nailed the main ones. Gimme those, a bit of a raise, plus the elimination (or major improvements) to flat pay, and I’ll sign.

But, I know they’re going to do the same thing they always do — ignore (or give away) the stuff that would actually improve our day-to-day in favour of a laser focus on the $$$.

[Montroyal]

ACPA's strategy or lack of has left AC pilots in the dust on nearly everything

Everyone focuses on the wage delta to Delta, but the scheduling / QOL rivals a northern bush operation

[RippleRock]

ACPA's strategy or lack of has left AC pilots in the dust on nearly everything

Everyone focuses on the wage delta to Delta, but the scheduling / QOL rivals a northern bush operation

Remember that nearly every LOU/MOU has had language that our "completely neglectful MEC" and "useless legal council" let slip into our contract.

The purpose of the of these "irritants" was to have us chasing our tail at negots time, looking to "fix them" instead of focusing on legitimate monetary gain. They were put there by design. Two big, recent examples were the changes to reserve, another is the 10% Cargo wage rebate. Those will cost us plenty to "repair". We have hundreds of those.

Do you want to waste "bargaining energy" repairing everything, or make legitimate gains in what hits your bank account every month?

FWIW, thank God ACPA is dead. They were the worst run "union" with the worst legal council to ever exist. The energy we will waste fixing their neglect in upholding the integrity of our contract going forward will be staggering. Watch.

[flying4dollars]

AC pilots better be ready

Going to take a great battle for them if they want those US wages...

Relying on a low cost carrier to do the work for them is not good strategy

Flat pay 2 years (and associated equipment freeze). Year 1 no lower than $90k. Year 2 no lower than $115k.

Flat pay 1 year based on probation, nobody makes less than $100k. Why is there such an acceptance of multi year flat pay amongst AC pilots? I seriously don't understand it.

[a2btrail]

AC pilots better be ready

Going to take a great battle for them if they want those US wages...

Relying on a low cost carrier to do the work for them is not good strategy

Flat pay 2 years (and associated equipment freeze). Year 1 no lower than $90k. Year 2 no lower than $115k.

Flat pay 1 year based on probation, nobody makes less than $100k. Why is there such an acceptance of multi year flat pay amongst AC pilots? I seriously don't understand it.

Abolish flat pay.

[RippleRock]

This should be on the AC forum, as were hijacking Westjets, however one comment...

It's far past time that AC Mainline pilots stood up and acted like the Legacy pilots they are "posing" as. Proper compensation is the "very backbone" of the profession, and we've been lacking said backbone for a long time.

This "stepping up" includes taking the professional responsibility of securing gains on a North American Legacy level, as well as respecting the livelihood of our new hires. I don't want my FO on the flight deck distracted by being obsessively concerned about how they are going to make ends meet for their young families on a daily basis. A distracted pilot is a dangerous pilot. The Corp already offered the new hires a pay bump late last year in the failed MOU, but now are holding it in ransom for us not accepting the significant concessions embedded in it. That's not honorable. That's not fair.

The days of "we don't negotiate for those not on the property" had better be gone. That's been a "cop out" attitude that has caused division and resentment within the Membership for far too long.

[flying4dollars]

This should be on the AC forum, as were hijacking Westjets, however one comment...

It's far past time that AC Mainline pilots stood up and acted like the Legacy pilots they are "posing" as. Proper compensation is the "very backbone" of the profession, and we've been lacking said backbone for a long time.

This "stepping up" includes taking the professional responsibility of securing gains on a North American Legacy level, as well as respecting the livelihood of our new hires. I don't want my FO on the flight deck distracted by being obsessively concerned about how they are going to make ends meet for their young families on a daily basis. A distracted pilot is a dangerous pilot. The Corp already offered the new hires a pay bump late last year in the failed MOU, but now are holding it in ransom for us not accepting the significant concessions embedded in it. That's not honorable. That's not fair.

The days of "we don't negotiate for those not on the property" had better be gone. That's been a "cop out" attitude that has caused division and resentment within the Membership for far too long.

Agreed but, this IS the AC forum

[Malfunction]

This deal is great but not complete. Fix that pay or no deal. Come on westjet

[Blueontop]

This should be on the AC forum, as were hijacking Westjets, however one comment...

It's far past time that AC Mainline pilots stood up and acted like the Legacy pilots they are "posing" as. Proper compensation is the "very backbone" of the profession, and we've been lacking said backbone for a long time.

This "stepping up" includes taking the professional responsibility of securing gains on a North American Legacy level, as well as respecting the livelihood of our new hires. I don't want my FO on the flight deck distracted by being obsessively concerned about how they are going to make ends meet for their young families on a daily basis. A distracted pilot is a dangerous pilot. The Corp already offered the new hires a pay bump late last year in the failed MOU, but now are holding it in ransom for us not accepting the significant concessions embedded in it. That's not honorable. That's not fair.

The days of "we don't negotiate for those not on the property" had better be gone. That's been a "cop out" attitude that has caused division and resentment within the Membership for far too long.

+1