WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

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RB211
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WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by RB211 »

I am not familiar with the the WJ current contract or the AIP other than what I see on forums like this. At this stage the specifics are not out just yet so it is still a lot of speculation and guesstimating.

I hope with the details comes greater satisfaction and folks can get back to life being better off and happier.

It seems though, that for those that are disappointed it is because the AIP doesn't reach Delta or AA levels. I would guess most pilots globally would like those deals!! But how about compared to other airlines south of the border? What about JetBlue, Frontier, Spirit or Southwest? They seem to be more the size and scale of WJ and, perhaps, a more realistic comparison?

Is it really a complete disappointment or embarrassment as some are saying?
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by flyinhigh »

I mentioned that in another thread.

At first glance the new pay rates are close to those of Frontier’s.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by RB211 »

Assuming this site has accurate data, that comparison might be close:

https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/frontier-airlines
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by RippleRock »

RB211 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:51 am I am not familiar with the the WJ current contract or the AIP other than what I see on forums like this. At this stage the specifics are not out just yet so it is still a lot of speculation and guesstimating.

I hope with the details comes greater satisfaction and folks can get back to life being better off and happier.

It seems though, that for those that are disappointed it is because the AIP doesn't reach Delta or AA levels. I would guess most pilots globally would like those deals!! But how about compared to other airlines south of the border? What about JetBlue, Frontier, Spirit or Southwest? They seem to be more the size and scale of WJ and, perhaps, a more realistic comparison?

Is it really a complete disappointment or embarrassment as some are saying?
Nobody was -ever- asking for Delta/American wage levels, the difference is too staggering.

If you put the respective "gains" in the AIP on a scale of 1 to 100, Delta/American being 100, and where Westjetters started being zero. The gains wage wise sit around 12+-. Almost every dime was eaten, or will be eaten by inflation. Those aren't "gains" as the word is defined. It's just treading water. I guess you could claim a "victory" in not going backward, but it was by no means a "home run". Not by any definition of the word.

Management both at AC and Westjet have us chasing our tails. We are wasting tremendous bargaining capital on the elimination, or integration of our B-scale affiliates. These entities should NEVER have existed, as their only purpose was to whipsaw and divide the respective pilot groups, driving wages and working conditions down.

If you are happy with "net zero" in buying power for your household, in what is probably the best opportunity in a generation to make significant improvements to your WACON, by all means vote yes. It's your deal, and you have to live with it.

Just know you could have done better, and this opportunity isn't likely to present itself again.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by Bede »

RB211 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:51 am I am not familiar with the the WJ current contract or the AIP other than what I see on forums like this. At this stage the specifics are not out just yet so it is still a lot of speculation and guesstimating.

I hope with the details comes greater satisfaction and folks can get back to life being better off and happier.

It seems though, that for those that are disappointed it is because the AIP doesn't reach Delta or AA levels. I would guess most pilots globally would like those deals!! But how about compared to other airlines south of the border? What about JetBlue, Frontier, Spirit or Southwest? They seem to be more the size and scale of WJ and, perhaps, a more realistic comparison?

Is it really a complete disappointment or embarrassment as some are saying?
It matches what the pilot group said they wanted to a T. It's a major win. Some members felt that they would get everything they wanted (Swoop gone, pension, increased take home pay, paid LTD) plus get a 30% pay uplift. Something about cake...
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by Bede »

RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am If you put the respective "gains" in the AIP on a scale of 1 to 100, Delta/American being 100, and where Westjetters started being zero. The gains wage wise sit around 12+-. Almost every dime was eaten, or will be eaten by inflation. Those aren't "gains" as the word is defined. It's just treading water. I guess you could claim a "victory" in not going backward, but it was by no means a "home run". Not by any definition of the word.
No. If Delta is 100, we started at about 52. We're probably at 65 now. Yes there's a way to go but we're heading in that direction.
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am Just know you could have done better, and this opportunity isn't likely to present itself again.
And you know this how?
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am If you are happy with "net zero" in buying power for your household, in what is probably the best opportunity in a generation to make significant improvements to your WACON, by all means vote yes. It's your deal, and you have to live with it.
Hold on, you're not a WestJet pilot? Why the F*** are you even commenting? You are/were part of a union who have consistently lowered the bar for pilots in Canada and the rest of us have been chasing it. Tell me, what was the WAWCON at AC 25 years ago? How about 2004? 2013? How about the cargo LOU? Now go graph that in Excel and tell me how the line looks like. Our NB rates will be around $300/hr by the end of this CA. What are yours at under your CA? We did our heavy lifting, now you go do yours and piss off.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by TheLastonetoknow »

Bede wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:40 am
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am If you put the respective "gains" in the AIP on a scale of 1 to 100, Delta/American being 100, and where Westjetters started being zero. The gains wage wise sit around 12+-. Almost every dime was eaten, or will be eaten by inflation. Those aren't "gains" as the word is defined. It's just treading water. I guess you could claim a "victory" in not going backward, but it was by no means a "home run". Not by any definition of the word.
No. If Delta is 100, we started at about 52. We're probably at 65 now. Yes there's a way to go but we're heading in that direction.
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am Just know you could have done better, and this opportunity isn't likely to present itself again.
And you know this how?
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am If you are happy with "net zero" in buying power for your household, in what is probably the best opportunity in a generation to make significant improvements to your WACON, by all means vote yes. It's your deal, and you have to live with it.
Hold on, you're not a WestJet pilot? Why the F*** are you even commenting? You are/were part of a union who have consistently lowered the bar for pilots in Canada and the rest of us have been chasing it. Tell me, what was the WAWCON at AC 25 years ago? How about 2004? 2013? How about the cargo LOU? Now go graph that in Excel and tell me how the line looks like. Our NB rates will be around $300/hr by the end of this CA. What are yours at under your CA? We did our heavy lifting, now you go do yours and piss off.
Why are you commenting on their CA if you’re not flying for them?
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by Bede »

TheLastonetoknow wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:52 am Why are you commenting on their CA if you’re not flying for them?
I'm hitting back at someone who is purposely misrepresenting the facts to influence a pilot group against their union.

If some Delta guy wants to castigate my wages, so be, but I'm not going to be lectured by someone who makes less than me.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by TheLastonetoknow »

Bede wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:01 am
TheLastonetoknow wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:52 am Why are you commenting on their CA if you’re not flying for them?
I'm hitting back at someone who is purposely misrepresenting the facts to influence a pilot group against their union.

If some Delta guy wants to castigate my wages, so be, but I'm not going to be lectured by someone who makes less than me.
I’d be extremely surprised if ones opinion on their MEC hangs in the balance of random people commenting on this forum. If someone on here said wolverines would make good house pets, would you believe them? People who’ve been in aviation for a good amount of time aren’t that weak minded or swayed as easily.

Look I get the company pride you have and your optimism. My question to you is would or could you tell someone(in good conscience) to start at your establishment with the possibility this will be passed and benefit them?

Let’s look after the new pilots of the future...
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by Bede »

TheLastonetoknow wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:27 am Look I get the company pride you have and your optimism.
Let's not get carried away now:) I'm proud of my union. My company would have me working for Swoop wages if they could.
TheLastonetoknow wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 10:27 am My question to you is would or could you tell someone(in good conscience) to start at your establishment with the possibility this will be passed and benefit them?
Great question. I have always sought to leave this industry in a better place than I found it. I don't know how the jr. pay scales are going to be divied up, but let's assume the jr. payscales are going up. With socialized bidding for good QoL and a pension, I would once again recommend people come to WJ. Things are definitely looking better now than they were a month ago.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by CaptainHaddock »

The 3 top wants of the westjet pilots in descending order,

Scope, job protection
Take home pay increase
Scheduling

My opinion is just from a line pilot. Also we are still waiting for more detailed info. But from the highlights.

We have captured Swoop and Sunwing flying under one OC and same WAWCON, there will be lots of questions about timing and process I am sure. But we got the vast majority of WJ pilots #1 ask.

People unfamiliar to the nuances of WJ’s pay structure my not differentiate from posted hourly pay scales and what you actually get in your jeans pocket-but there is a considerable spread. The pay is supposedly increasing on average by 25% out of the gate (15% rates, 10% strait pay from the previous WSP), with another 8-9% over the balance of the contract.10% retirement on top of that.
We will have less deductibles and no longer have to contribute to get your 10% retirement match. Again, we only have limited info on what this will actually end up as. I hear the FO scales are getting a lager percentage rise and CA’s less. Many new FO’s don’t even participate in the 20% matching as they can’t afford to. For them then it’s a 25% increase plus the 10% retirement money they couldn’t afford before.

Lifestyle are big changes too, many are just getting back what we lost when punished for unionizing. If you are a new hire FO now, socialized bidding remains, no more 18 days full block reserve. 16 day mixed block (maybe 5 day block reserve, 11 days of flying, maybe the reverse). So you can show up on property and bid the flying you want, you can trade/flying reserve through Flica. I hear TimeBank is back, any block growth or OT can be put into there-later you can drop flying and use TimeBank to keep your pay stable, or conversely you can ask to be paid out as extra money.
Some good stuff for commuters. And back to point #1, with scope secured you can just enjoy the job. I am guessing upgrades will drop back to around the average 7-8 years, but that also comes with YOS-so 7-8 year CA pay when you transition.
Plus the reduced block program (part time)is getting expanded, you want more time and less money, not sure you want to retire, have 2 pilots married together with kids-it’s a great program. It was envisioned for pilots close to retirement that wanted to kind of try out retirement initially.

We had A LOT of crap in our CA from the arbitration, we are 2 contracts in now-and only one actually negotiated. We spent basically the last 5 years in rowing through a contract we were stuck with. That contract also got tested by the biggest downturn in aviation and super fast spool up and being purchased (going from public to private). We didn’t get everything we wanted, but we got most of it, and we didn’t give anything away that I see yet.

I’m sure AC will financially top us with their new agreement (go brothers and Sisters), but WestJet has a lot of the lifestyle attributes back that drew me here initially. Supposedly more small bases are coming too, but I’ll believe it when I see it. Anyways, the devil is always in the details-
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by TFTMB heavy »

CaptainHaddock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:06 pm The 3 top wants of the westjet pilots in descending order,

Scope, job protection
Take home pay increase
Scheduling

My opinion is just from a line pilot.. Also we are still waiting for more detailed info. But from the highlights.

We have captured Swoop and Sunwing flying under one OC and same WAWCON, there will be lots of questions about timing and process I am sure. But we got the vast majority of WJ pilots #1 ask.

People unfamiliar to the nuances of WJ’s pay structure my not differentiate from posted hourly pay scales and what you actually get in your jeans pocket-but there is a considerable spread. The pay is supposedly increasing on average by 25% out of the gate (15% rates, 10% strait pay from the previous WSP), with another 8-9% over the balance of the contract.10% retirement on top of that.
We will have less deductibles and no longer have to contribute to get your 10% retirement match. Again, we only have limited info on what this will actually end up as. I hear the FO scales are getting a lager percentage rise and CA’s less. Many new FO’s don’t even participate in the 20% matching as they can’t afford to. For them then it’s a 25% increase plus the 10% retirement money they couldn’t afford before.

Lifestyle are big changes too, many are just getting back what we lost when punished for unionizing. If you are a new hire FO now, socialized bidding remains, no more 18 days full block reserve. 16 day mixed block (maybe 5 day block reserve, 11 days of flying, maybe the reverse). So you can show up on property and bid the flying you want, you can trade/flying reserve through Flica. I hear TimeBank is back, any block growth or OT can be put into there-later you can drop flying and use TimeBank to keep your pay stable, or conversely you can ask to be paid out as extra money.
Some good stuff for commuters. And back to point #1, with scope secured you can just enjoy the job. I am guessing upgrades will drop back to around the average 7-8 years, but that also comes with YOS-so 7-8 year CA pay when you transition.
Plus the reduced block program (part time)is getting expanded, you want more time and less money, not sure you want to retire, have 2 pilots married together with kids-it’s a great program. It was envisioned for pilots close to retirement that wanted to kind of try out retirement initially.

We had A LOT of crap in our CA from the arbitration, we are 2 contracts in now-and only one actually negotiated. We spent basically the last 5 years in rowing through a contract we were stuck with. That contract also got tested by the biggest downturn in aviation and super fast spool up and being purchased (going from public to private). We didn’t get everything we wanted, but we got most of it, and we didn’t give anything away that I see yet.

I’m sure AC will financially top us with their new agreement (go brothers and Sisters), but WestJet has a lot of the lifestyle attributes back that drew me here initially. Supposedly more small bases are coming too, but I’ll believe it when I see it. Anyways, the devil is always in the details-
No skin in the game but I’d wager that’s who people want to hear from.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by RippleRock »

Bede wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:40 am
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am If you put the respective "gains" in the AIP on a scale of 1 to 100, Delta/American being 100, and where Westjetters started being zero. The gains wage wise sit around 12+-. Almost every dime was eaten, or will be eaten by inflation. Those aren't "gains" as the word is defined. It's just treading water. I guess you could claim a "victory" in not going backward, but it was by no means a "home run". Not by any definition of the word.
No. If Delta is 100, we started at about 52. We're probably at 65 now. Yes there's a way to go but we're heading in that direction.
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am Just know you could have done better, and this opportunity isn't likely to present itself again.
And you know this how?
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am If you are happy with "net zero" in buying power for your household, in what is probably the best opportunity in a generation to make significant improvements to your WACON, by all means vote yes. It's your deal, and you have to live with it.
Hold on, you're not a WestJet pilot? Why the F*** are you even commenting? You are/were part of a union who have consistently lowered the bar for pilots in Canada and the rest of us have been chasing it. Tell me, what was the WAWCON at AC 25 years ago? How about 2004? 2013? How about the cargo LOU? Now go graph that in Excel and tell me how the line looks like. Our NB rates will be around $300/hr by the end of this CA. What are yours at under your CA? We did our heavy lifting, now you go do yours and piss off.
Oh this is going to be fun.

First of all, you comment on the AC thread plenty, so don't send me that "right to comment" crap.

Second, we appreciate your comments because everything is useful, so learn to respect others opinion. We're all in the exact same field, and we all bring a plethora of useful information. Shutting one down with a "piss off" comment for not being a direct employee is pretty disrespectful. We're all brothers in arms, and we dont make gains without you and vise versa. Third, I guarantee you I make more than you with a DB pension, even with this AIP so you can stick that comment, as it was a stupid thing to say anyway. I'm not sure what point there was to it anyway other than you just lashing out. Children lash out.

I voted no to every concession that ever came our way. Every one. Every opportunity I voiced my displeasure with the direction ACPA was heading. So I did my part. I also walked with you guys, yellow and pink lanyard and all and I took the entire weekend off to support you guys on the line.

I listened very closely to Bernie, Jason, and your other presenters at the meetings. Very impressive talk for so little return. Lot of "North American standard" talk. Sorry, not even remotely close.

Overall, many items in your AIP were cherry-picked directly from our contract, so that gives me another right to comment. Wages are the most important gain. As they stand in the AIP, they are an "inflation correction" that's it. No win there. Pension contribution amounts are derived from them, so you are barely staying above water, thats it. The rest is just shuffling money around to avoid the tax man, plus some minor gains, most of which we already have, so call them a "win" if you like.

Further, Swoop was an error that cost you plenty. You should have learned from Rouge, so don't blame us. It was right there staring at you guys. In my opinion the AIP is mediocre at best, which only makes our job more difficult. Anyway. Good luck with it.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by CaptainHaddock »

‘ Further, Swoop was an error that cost you plenty. You should have learned from Rouge, so don't blame us’,

I’m not going to delve into the rest of your guys discussion. But we didn’t need to learn about rouge, Saretsky
(Sp) was spouting off about jet star at the Swoop roadshows, Swoop was the first major business move the pilots were unable to vote on (as it wouldn’t have passed). It lead directly to overwhelming unionization support, and our first strike vote, and then our current arbitrated Agreement. There may have been a misstep at the 11th hour with our newly minted union/transport minister/Clive. But believe me we did everything in our power to avoid Swoop.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by TFTMB heavy »

RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 4:21 pm
Bede wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:40 am
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am If you put the respective "gains" in the AIP on a scale of 1 to 100, Delta/American being 100, and where Westjetters started being zero. The gains wage wise sit around 12+-. Almost every dime was eaten, or will be eaten by inflation. Those aren't "gains" as the word is defined. It's just treading water. I guess you could claim a "victory" in not going backward, but it was by no means a "home run". Not by any definition of the word.
No. If Delta is 100, we started at about 52. We're probably at 65 now. Yes there's a way to go but we're heading in that direction.
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am Just know you could have done better, and this opportunity isn't likely to present itself again.
And you know this how?
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:28 am If you are happy with "net zero" in buying power for your household, in what is probably the best opportunity in a generation to make significant improvements to your WACON, by all means vote yes. It's your deal, and you have to live with it.
Hold on, you're not a WestJet pilot? Why the F*** are you even commenting? You are/were part of a union who have consistently lowered the bar for pilots in Canada and the rest of us have been chasing it. Tell me, what was the WAWCON at AC 25 years ago? How about 2004? 2013? How about the cargo LOU? Now go graph that in Excel and tell me how the line looks like. Our NB rates will be around $300/hr by the end of this CA. What are yours at under your CA? We did our heavy lifting, now you go do yours and piss off.
Oh this is going to be fun.

First of all, you comment on the AC thread plenty, so don't send me that "right to comment" crap.

Second, we appreciate your comments because everything is useful, so learn to respect others opinion. We're all in the exact same field, and we all bring a plethora of useful information. Shutting one down with a "piss off" comment for not being a direct employee is pretty disrespectful. We're all brothers in arms, and we dont make gains without you and vise versa. Third, I guarantee you I make more than you with a DB pension, even with this AIP so you can stick that comment, as it was a stupid thing to say anyway. I'm not sure what point there was to it anyway other than you just lashing out. Children lash out.

I voted no to every concession that ever came our way. Every one. Every opportunity I voiced my displeasure with the direction ACPA was heading. So I did my part. I also walked with you guys, yellow and pink lanyard and all and I took the entire weekend off to support you guys on the line.

I listened very closely to Bernie, Jason, and your other presenters at the meetings. Very impressive talk for so little return. Lot of "North American standard" talk. Sorry, not even remotely close.

Overall, many items in your AIP were cherry-picked directly from our contract, so that gives me another right to comment. Wages are the most important gain. As they stand in the AIP, they are an "inflation correction" that's it. No win there. Pension contribution amounts are derived from them, so you are barely staying above water, thats it. The rest is just shuffling money around to avoid the tax man, plus some minor gains, most of which we already have, so call them a "win" if you like.

Further, Swoop was an error that cost you plenty. You should have learned from Rouge, so don't blame us. It was right there staring at you guys. In my opinion the AIP is mediocre at best, which only makes our job more difficult. Anyway. Good luck with it.
If you delivered your message more respectfully and tactfully you would get some respect back in return.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by dontcallmeshirley »

RB211 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:39 am Assuming this site has accurate data, that comparison might be close:

https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/frontier-airlines
The numerical values may be similar, but the conversion from USD to CAD chops 25% off.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by BigQ »

Ok cool, an EB2-NIW work visa only costs around $30kUSD in lawyer fees, and the cost to convert to an FAA ATPL is another 8k, good luck!
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by RippleRock »

TFTMB heavy wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:26 am
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 4:21 pm
Bede wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:40 am
No. If Delta is 100, we started at about 52. We're probably at 65 now. Yes there's a way to go but we're heading in that direction.


And you know this how?


Hold on, you're not a WestJet pilot? Why the F*** are you even commenting? You are/were part of a union who have consistently lowered the bar for pilots in Canada and the rest of us have been chasing it. Tell me, what was the WAWCON at AC 25 years ago? How about 2004? 2013? How about the cargo LOU? Now go graph that in Excel and tell me how the line looks like. Our NB rates will be around $300/hr by the end of this CA. What are yours at under your CA? We did our heavy lifting, now you go do yours and piss off.
Oh this is going to be fun.

First of all, you comment on the AC thread plenty, so don't send me that "right to comment" crap.

Second, we appreciate your comments because everything is useful, so learn to respect others opinion. We're all in the exact same field, and we all bring a plethora of useful information. Shutting one down with a "piss off" comment for not being a direct employee is pretty disrespectful. We're all brothers in arms, and we dont make gains without you and vise versa. Third, I guarantee you I make more than you with a DB pension, even with this AIP so you can stick that comment, as it was a stupid thing to say anyway. I'm not sure what point there was to it anyway other than you just lashing out. Children lash out.

I voted no to every concession that ever came our way. Every one. Every opportunity I voiced my displeasure with the direction ACPA was heading. So I did my part. I also walked with you guys, yellow and pink lanyard and all and I took the entire weekend off to support you guys on the line.

I listened very closely to Bernie, Jason, and your other presenters at the meetings. Very impressive talk for so little return. Lot of "North American standard" talk. Sorry, not even remotely close.

Overall, many items in your AIP were cherry-picked directly from our contract, so that gives me another right to comment. Wages are the most important gain. As they stand in the AIP, they are an "inflation correction" that's it. No win there. Pension contribution amounts are derived from them, so you are barely staying above water, thats it. The rest is just shuffling money around to avoid the tax man, plus some minor gains, most of which we already have, so call them a "win" if you like.

Further, Swoop was an error that cost you plenty. You should have learned from Rouge, so don't blame us. It was right there staring at you guys. In my opinion the AIP is mediocre at best, which only makes our job more difficult. Anyway. Good luck with it.
If you delivered your message more respectfully and tactfully you would get some respect back in return.
Are you refering to me, or Bede? Read both posts. Respect is -followed by- respect.
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by TFTMB heavy »

RippleRock wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 6:16 am
TFTMB heavy wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:26 am
RippleRock wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 4:21 pm

Oh this is going to be fun.

First of all, you comment on the AC thread plenty, so don't send me that "right to comment" crap.

Second, we appreciate your comments because everything is useful, so learn to respect others opinion. We're all in the exact same field, and we all bring a plethora of useful information. Shutting one down with a "piss off" comment for not being a direct employee is pretty disrespectful. We're all brothers in arms, and we dont make gains without you and vise versa. Third, I guarantee you I make more than you with a DB pension, even with this AIP so you can stick that comment, as it was a stupid thing to say anyway. I'm not sure what point there was to it anyway other than you just lashing out. Children lash out.

I voted no to every concession that ever came our way. Every one. Every opportunity I voiced my displeasure with the direction ACPA was heading. So I did my part. I also walked with you guys, yellow and pink lanyard and all and I took the entire weekend off to support you guys on the line.

I listened very closely to Bernie, Jason, and your other presenters at the meetings. Very impressive talk for so little return. Lot of "North American standard" talk. Sorry, not even remotely close.

Overall, many items in your AIP were cherry-picked directly from our contract, so that gives me another right to comment. Wages are the most important gain. As they stand in the AIP, they are an "inflation correction" that's it. No win there. Pension contribution amounts are derived from them, so you are barely staying above water, thats it. The rest is just shuffling money around to avoid the tax man, plus some minor gains, most of which we already have, so call them a "win" if you like.

Further, Swoop was an error that cost you plenty. You should have learned from Rouge, so don't blame us. It was right there staring at you guys. In my opinion the AIP is mediocre at best, which only makes our job more difficult. Anyway. Good luck with it.
If you delivered your message more respectfully and tactfully you would get some respect back in return.
Are you refering to me, or Bede? Read both posts. Respect is -followed by- respect.
You, you came pretty hot on this IAP.
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co-joe
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Re: WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

Post by co-joe »

I think it's disappointing. For all the crap WS pilots threw at us in the Flair forum when our TA came with some good gains, that we unfortunately had to make concessions for, this AIP seems like meagre gains at best.

How long is CBA 2.0 going to be in force if you vote to accept the first offer? I truly hope for your sake it's 3 years or less.
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