What's the hourly rate for the 787, A330, 767 freighter with all the nav pay etc? Honestly, I don't know.
Why are you working within a CA that is 10 years old?
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What's the hourly rate for the 787, A330, 767 freighter with all the nav pay etc? Honestly, I don't know.
Why are you working within a CA that is 10 years old?
Who said he meant the 777?FNGYYZ wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 1:40 pmAC 777 is $308 Day / $340 Night plus Nav ($11) & Overseas ($12)Tony Soprano wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 12:18 pmI'm happy to take industry worst DH pay in exchange for more money than an AC WB skipper.
WJ 737 is $280 & WJ 787 is $320
So no WJ pilots are not going to make more than AC 777 skippers on a rate that was negotiated in 2014
I absolutely would be embarrassed with 50% DH pay in my contract in 2023
Spoken like true flight attendant........ "me too"airbussy wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 12:41 pmI would be lying if I didn't say the only reason I want to see the wages, is to know if AC is going to have to pull out their wallet if this thing passes. And that effects me and 4700 other pilots at AC. So hoping for the best when it comes to final numbers released.rudder wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 12:04 pmHaving done my fair share of collective bargaining and resulting TA roadshows, I can describe the experience as follows:
Back in the days of paper TA’s being handed out - no matter how comprehensive or detailed all of the amendments were to the CBA - the sound in the room would be “flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip …….. silence”.
Every pilot in the room just flipped to page 17 which was the wage page.
Such is the nature of pilots. 80% will vote on how the wage package affects them individually. Most of the rest is just a detail but to the bargaining committee it represents months of their work and ultimately all matters, just not at a mortgage loan appointment.
Good luck to the WJ pilots.
Actually, it's this thing called "pattern bargaining".. something that has never truly happened in Canada. But has been wildly successful in the USA.
+1airbussy wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 12:48 pmActually, it's this thing called "pattern bargaining".. something that has never truly happened in Canada. But has been wildly successful in the USA.
In fact, if you actually listened to the recorded YVR roadshow you would have heard the reasoning behind adding the 9.1% to the payrates even though it was just "moving money around" was to inflate the hourly rate to kickstart pattern bargaining with Air Canada. If WestJet's rates wouldn't have exceeded AC's (or only exceeded them in a much smaller amont) then when AC goes to bargain there isn't a lot of leverage now is there? If they kept it all in the WSP then when AC pilots negotiate, their management won't be required to go as high. Since pension money isn't usually compared directly with hourly compensation so the money is "lost" from a comparison angle. Everyone wins, including WJ pilots when it comes time to negotiate CA3.
It has nothing to do with "me too", rather excitement to see my WJ friends see some big raises which then hopefully requires AC to beat them. Then in 3 years when WJ goes back to the table, they beat us. I know, it's a hard concept to understand.
From the YVR presentation. There is a woman who mentions that there was no leverage use or cost given for Swoop or SunWing scope. I was unsure who she was but I’ll be listening to it again to get more clarity to it.airbussy wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 2:32 pm I've had a few chats with buddies here that didn't quite comprehend the scope aspect. If you've never worked at WJ you don't realize how much of an issue that was, as well as the take home pay.
Most of them understand now, that a lot of money and effort had to go into that and they STILL managed to outpace our 320 rates and 787 rates. Which is a good thing for us, and then by default good for WJ for CA3.
Everyone was hoping of course for 40-50% raises at WJ, but given all the things that needed to get cleaned up at WJ and basically killing Swoop it's a big step in the right direction.
I’d be sure the company had it factored in to their proposals, whether they mentioned the cost or not is irrelevant, there was a cost.Airbrake wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:08 pmFrom the YVR presentation. There is a woman who mentions that there was no leverage use or cost given for Swoop or SunWing scope. I was unsure who she was but I’ll be listening to it again to get more clarity to it.airbussy wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 2:32 pm I've had a few chats with buddies here that didn't quite comprehend the scope aspect. If you've never worked at WJ you don't realize how much of an issue that was, as well as the take home pay.
Most of them understand now, that a lot of money and effort had to go into that and they STILL managed to outpace our 320 rates and 787 rates. Which is a good thing for us, and then by default good for WJ for CA3.
Everyone was hoping of course for 40-50% raises at WJ, but given all the things that needed to get cleaned up at WJ and basically killing Swoop it's a big step in the right direction.
What’s a normal amount of credits to work in a month? Is everyone only scheduled to the MMG and then they can pick up more with OT or do people get scheduled for higher than the MMG?Aviator12 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:10 am If you add everything up the T4 is actually not bad for an FO:
FO first year:
81.81 x 77.5 MMG x 12 months = 76 083
X1.1 WSP= 83 691
+$7312 Stock option replacement (CEP)
= $91 003 T4
2 years completed is when the nice big hike comes:
$130 072 T4
Potential additional unknown amounts:
-profit share
-owners performance reward
In general, I think that the TA is not a ‘home run’ but a stand up double for the WJ pilots. For at least the next few months they will be the highest paid NB pilots in Canada.Aviator12 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:10 am If you add everything up the T4 is actually not bad for an FO:
FO first year:
81.81 x 77.5 MMG x 12 months = 76 083
X1.1 WSP= 83 691
+$7312 Stock option replacement (CEP)
= $91 003 T4
2 years completed is when the nice big hike comes:
$130 072 T4
Potential additional unknown amounts:
-profit share
-owners performance reward
That comparison is certainly valuable to an extent. But I doubt it will be used as a target. Our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation are higher. About $40/hour higher than the new WJ 37 wage for example. Yes we are embarrassingly far behind even ourselves from 20 years ago.
I’d be more happy with westjet +10% and a complete overhaul of our lifestyle than westjet +25% and the same garbage work rules we have. The government can’t tax time off so let’s maximize our time off instead of focusing on just pay ratesFanblade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:21 amThat comparison is certainly valuable to an extent. But I doubt it will be used as a target. Our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation are higher. About $40/hour higher than the new WJ 37 wage for example. Yes we are embarrassingly far behind even ourselves from 20 years ago.
This combined with the “North American compensation” messaging I don’t expect the AC pilots to target Westjet pilots at all.
You are right though. The Westjet pilots certainly moved the needle. Something AC pilots have not done in nearly a 1/4 century
KAG wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:37 pm I'm happy with this TA. We had a LOT of house cleaning to do, and we got it done.
Sure the pay scales by themselves aren't a grand slam, but they're solid. The lifestyle tweaks appear very good.
Our vacation credit is among industry leading and we get 3 GDOS with each group of 5 days days off.
We can now "trade" 2 pairing each month (at first 48 hours post sched release) with OT pairings to tweak our schedule. Partial trades are back, as are gate trades.
Not to mention Flica, no fault commuting policy - there's a lot of flexibility.
Someone asked about MMG, our MMG remains 77.5, I'm usually blocked about 82. Depending on how I bid (single days vs sun layovers) I average 12 days a month scheduled. Some more, some less. This month is 16 days because I chased sun layovers.
In terms of raw $$$ AC will beat us hands down next CA. Lifestyle, I'd say we're ahead of all but the top 15% getting gravy schedules.
This CA appears like it's fixed a lot of $$ shortcomings, protected our careers (scope) while improving lifestyle.
I'm glad it passed.
Each base gets a pretty good mix of layovers. Very generally speaking, YYZ gets more Caribbean layovers and the western bases get more Mexico/SW USA layovers.