New payscale

[Tony Soprano]

AC 777 is $308 Day / $340 Night plus Nav ($11) & Overseas ($12)

WJ 737 is $280 & WJ 787 is $320

What's the hourly rate for the 787, A330, 767 freighter with all the nav pay etc? Honestly, I don't know.

So no WJ pilots are not going to make more than AC 777 skippers on a rate that was negotiated in 2014

Why are you working within a CA that is 10 years old?

[PositiveRate27]

Nav pay is paid for NB overseas flying only. The WB only gets the hourly Overseas premium of $13.27 for a CA and $7.24 for an FO and only when actually flying an overseas route.

The amount of Overseas/Nav pay a NB pilot will attract depends heavily on the fleet type, base and seniority. Currently the only NB fleet doing overseas flying is the 737 in YUL/YVR. Senior pilots can bid 100% of their flying to be overseas. Juniors cannot.

Current year 12 Air Canada rates:

777 CA / FO
307.79 Day / 340.26 Night plus $13.27 Overseas
199.09 Day / 218.08 Night plus $ 7.24 Overseas

787 CA / FO
281.36 Day / 313.82 Night plus $13.27 Overseas
183.63 Day / 202.62 Night plus $ 7.24 Overseas

737 CA / FO
220.83 Day / 249.51 Night plus $13.27 Overseas & $12.06 Nav
148.22 Day / 165.00 Night plus $ 7.24 Overseas & $ 6.03 Nav


Edited to add my favourite rates (not):

767F CA/FO
232.32 Day / 260.25 Night plus $13.27 Overseas
153.09 Day / 169.37 Night plus $ 7.24 Overseas

Old 767 CA/FO
258.23 Day / 289.17 Night plus $13.27 Overseas
170.10 Day / 188.19 Night plus $ 7.24 Overseas

We didn’t negotiate the new rate in 2014. We negotiated it in 2020 despite having the flying already scoped in article 1 of the collective agreement.

[Fanblade]

The 4 hrs duty credit is industry worst and will still be industry worst in 2026 at 4.25 is embarrassing

And getting paid 50% to deadhead? Industry worst

Can someone name a profession where your employer makes you do something at work and then pays you 50%?

I'm happy to take industry worst DH pay in exchange for more money than an AC WB skipper.

AC 777 is $308 Day / $340 Night plus Nav ($11) & Overseas ($12)

WJ 737 is $280 & WJ 787 is $320

So no WJ pilots are not going to make more than AC 777 skippers on a rate that was negotiated in 2014

I absolutely would be embarrassed with 50% DH pay in my contract in 2023

Who said he meant the 777?

AC 787 pays 297 half day night.
AC 767 Freight pays 246 half day night

WJ 737 pilots make $35/hour more than our 767 drivers.
On a day domestic flight WJ 787 Captains make $40/hour more than our 787 drivers
On a day domestic WJ 787 Captains make $12/hour more than our triple Captains.

The way you explain the rate. Like it was negotiated 10 years ago and hasn’t changed since. It is the 2023 rate negotiated 10 years ago with increases each year to today.

Our wages as a legacy are embarrassing. I wouldn’t be throwing stones about 50% DH.

[fish4life]

As much as I hope we pass WJ wages I hope it’s not the only thing we are focused on, give me WJ vacation +.5 / day. Enough of our absolute trash vacation

[bobcaygeon]

Exactly!

Having done my fair share of collective bargaining and resulting TA roadshows, I can describe the experience as follows:

Back in the days of paper TA’s being handed out - no matter how comprehensive or detailed all of the amendments were to the CBA - the sound in the room would be “flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip …….. silence”.

Every pilot in the room just flipped to page 17 which was the wage page.

Such is the nature of pilots. 80% will vote on how the wage package affects them individually. Most of the rest is just a detail but to the bargaining committee it represents months of their work and ultimately all matters, just not at a mortgage loan appointment.

Good luck to the WJ pilots.

I would be lying if I didn't say the only reason I want to see the wages, is to know if AC is going to have to pull out their wallet if this thing passes. And that effects me and 4700 other pilots at AC. So hoping for the best when it comes to final numbers released.

Spoken like true flight attendant........ "me too"

[airbussy]

Spoken like true flight attendant........ "me too"

Actually, it's this thing called "pattern bargaining".. something that has never truly happened in Canada. But has been wildly successful in the USA.

In fact, if you actually listened to the recorded YVR roadshow you would have heard the reasoning behind adding the 9.1% to the payrates even though it was just "moving money around" was to inflate the hourly rate to kickstart pattern bargaining with Air Canada. If WestJet's rates wouldn't have exceeded AC's (or only exceeded them in a much smaller amont) then when AC goes to bargain there isn't a lot of leverage now is there? If they kept it all in the WSP then when AC pilots negotiate, their management won't be required to go as high. Since pension money isn't usually compared directly with hourly compensation so the money is "lost" from a comparison angle. Everyone wins, including WJ pilots when it comes time to negotiate CA3.

It has nothing to do with "me too", rather excitement to see my WJ friends see some big raises which then hopefully requires AC to beat them. Then in 3 years when WJ goes back to the table, they beat us. I know, it's a hard concept to understand.

[JBI]

Spoken like true flight attendant........ "me too"

Actually, it's this thing called "pattern bargaining".. something that has never truly happened in Canada. But has been wildly successful in the USA.

In fact, if you actually listened to the recorded YVR roadshow you would have heard the reasoning behind adding the 9.1% to the payrates even though it was just "moving money around" was to inflate the hourly rate to kickstart pattern bargaining with Air Canada. If WestJet's rates wouldn't have exceeded AC's (or only exceeded them in a much smaller amont) then when AC goes to bargain there isn't a lot of leverage now is there? If they kept it all in the WSP then when AC pilots negotiate, their management won't be required to go as high. Since pension money isn't usually compared directly with hourly compensation so the money is "lost" from a comparison angle. Everyone wins, including WJ pilots when it comes time to negotiate CA3.

It has nothing to do with "me too", rather excitement to see my WJ friends see some big raises which then hopefully requires AC to beat them. Then in 3 years when WJ goes back to the table, they beat us. I know, it's a hard concept to understand.

+1

While I can understand some AC folks looking at the initial 15.5% and thinking it's a little on the lower end, gotta remember that there was a lot left over from the arbitrated CA1 that needed to get cleaned up. At the same time, making the WSP 10% and Air Canada's pension contribution being 10.5% (info from the YVR roadshow) makes it much easier to come apples to apples. If the TA becomes CA2, WJ's narrow body rates are currently higher than AC's. Well, pretty easy starting point.

At the same time, it'll now be easier for AC pilots to argue for improvements to areas where WJ's contract is better.

While I want us to continue to strive to match the legacy US rates, AC (~194 tails + significant wide bodies) has a stronger case to say that they should be matching the big 3 or Alaska (~204 tails) . WJ (~110 tails) is around the same size as Frontier (~125 tails) & Allegiant (~107 tails) and this TA generally makes WJ's wages comparable to those airlines.

Hoping my friends at AC get a great bump in the next year or so. And, in 3.5 years, hoping we can use that in our next round of bargaining for CA3.

[airbussy]

I've had a few chats with buddies here that didn't quite comprehend the scope aspect. If you've never worked at WJ you don't realize how much of an issue that was, as well as the take home pay.

Most of them understand now, that a lot of money and effort had to go into that and they STILL managed to outpace our 320 rates and 787 rates. Which is a good thing for us, and then by default good for WJ for CA3.

Everyone was hoping of course for 40-50% raises at WJ, but given all the things that needed to get cleaned up at WJ and basically killing Swoop it's a big step in the right direction.

[Airbrake]

I've had a few chats with buddies here that didn't quite comprehend the scope aspect. If you've never worked at WJ you don't realize how much of an issue that was, as well as the take home pay.

Most of them understand now, that a lot of money and effort had to go into that and they STILL managed to outpace our 320 rates and 787 rates. Which is a good thing for us, and then by default good for WJ for CA3.

Everyone was hoping of course for 40-50% raises at WJ, but given all the things that needed to get cleaned up at WJ and basically killing Swoop it's a big step in the right direction.

From the YVR presentation. There is a woman who mentions that there was no leverage use or cost given for Swoop or SunWing scope. I was unsure who she was but I’ll be listening to it again to get more clarity to it.

[cdnavater]

I've had a few chats with buddies here that didn't quite comprehend the scope aspect. If you've never worked at WJ you don't realize how much of an issue that was, as well as the take home pay.

Most of them understand now, that a lot of money and effort had to go into that and they STILL managed to outpace our 320 rates and 787 rates. Which is a good thing for us, and then by default good for WJ for CA3.

Everyone was hoping of course for 40-50% raises at WJ, but given all the things that needed to get cleaned up at WJ and basically killing Swoop it's a big step in the right direction.

From the YVR presentation. There is a woman who mentions that there was no leverage use or cost given for Swoop or SunWing scope. I was unsure who she was but I’ll be listening to it again to get more clarity to it.

I’d be sure the company had it factored in to their proposals, whether they mentioned the cost or not is irrelevant, there was a cost.

[Aviator12]

If you add everything up the T4 is actually not bad for an FO:

FO first year:
81.81 x 77.5 MMG x 12 months = 76 083
X1.1 WSP= 83 691
+$7312 Stock option replacement (CEP)
= $91 003 T4

2 years completed is when the nice big hike comes:

$130 072 T4

Potential additional unknown amounts:
-profit share
-owners performance reward

[goleafsgo]

If you add everything up the T4 is actually not bad for an FO:

FO first year:
81.81 x 77.5 MMG x 12 months = 76 083
X1.1 WSP= 83 691
+$7312 Stock option replacement (CEP)
= $91 003 T4

2 years completed is when the nice big hike comes:

$130 072 T4

Potential additional unknown amounts:
-profit share
-owners performance reward

What’s a normal amount of credits to work in a month? Is everyone only scheduled to the MMG and then they can pick up more with OT or do people get scheduled for higher than the MMG?

[rudder]

If you add everything up the T4 is actually not bad for an FO:

FO first year:
81.81 x 77.5 MMG x 12 months = 76 083
X1.1 WSP= 83 691
+$7312 Stock option replacement (CEP)
= $91 003 T4

2 years completed is when the nice big hike comes:

$130 072 T4

Potential additional unknown amounts:
-profit share
-owners performance reward

In general, I think that the TA is not a ‘home run’ but a stand up double for the WJ pilots. For at least the next few months they will be the highest paid NB pilots in Canada.

Having to expend bargaining capital to try to corral your work from multiple OC’s and bargaining units is unfortunate. But owning your work - all of it - is a fundamental piece of the CBA.

I think that the WJ pilots, who were already ahead of the AC pilots in general conditions of work, have added further enhancements. Lifestyle has value.

As for pay, there will have to be apple-vs-apple comparisons going forward in order to not create non equivalent calculations.

Pay is pay. That is wages. Not pension. Not MPU. Not top up. Not stock option replacement. Not profit share. Pay is an hourly rate. Pay is T4. And pay is what is used to calculate overtime rates.

Similarly, any contributions towards retirement by the employer are pension benefits. They are not added to either pay or to a T4 slip.

Having said that, if the desire is to generate an ‘overall compensation’ comparison, T4 plus employer pension contributions would be appropriate.

Hopefully these type of charts can be developed that show EXACTLY where the AC pilots find themselves in comparison to the WJ CBA. The goal will not be to match but to exceed.

p.s. the AC pilots would be doing themselves a favour to get rid of the archaic day/night/nav/overseas pay rate calculation. Just bury it all in the hourly rates. Pay everybody all of the time. You aren’t flying Lockheed Constellations anymore.

[Fanblade]

Hopefully these type of charts can be developed that show EXACTLY where the AC pilots find themselves in comparison to the WJ CBA. The goal will not be to match but to exceed.

That comparison is certainly valuable to an extent. But I doubt it will be used as a target. Our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation are higher. About $40/hour higher than the new WJ 37 wage for example. Yes we are embarrassingly far behind even ourselves from 20 years ago.

This combined with the “North American compensation” messaging I don’t expect the AC pilots to target Westjet pilots at all.

You are right though. The Westjet pilots certainly moved the needle. Something AC pilots have not done in nearly a 1/4 century

[fish4life]

Hopefully these type of charts can be developed that show EXACTLY where the AC pilots find themselves in comparison to the WJ CBA. The goal will not be to match but to exceed.

That comparison is certainly valuable to an extent. But I doubt it will be used as a target. Our 2003 wages adjusted for inflation are higher. About $40/hour higher than the new WJ 37 wage for example. Yes we are embarrassingly far behind even ourselves from 20 years ago.

This combined with the “North American compensation” messaging I don’t expect the AC pilots to target Westjet pilots at all.

You are right though. The Westjet pilots certainly moved the needle. Something AC pilots have not done in nearly a 1/4 century

I’d be more happy with westjet +10% and a complete overhaul of our lifestyle than westjet +25% and the same garbage work rules we have. The government can’t tax time off so let’s maximize our time off instead of focusing on just pay rates

[Aviator12]

Here is a comparison of A/C and WestJet hourly rates published by ALPA

IMG_1251.jpeg (296.52 KiB) Viewed 4579 times

And the roadshow PowerPoint. Gives a pretty good overview.

CA2Roadshow.pdf

(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 407 times

[Fanblade]

Those are pretty poor FO wages in relation to Captain wages. Not even close to a North American standard.

AC lowered wages for FO’s in 2012 to about 64-65%

The NA standard is 68-70%.

WJ looks like the 737 FO is just under 60%. 787 FO just over 60%.

There is more work to do

[KAG]

I'm happy with this TA. We had a LOT of house cleaning to do, and we got it done.
Sure the pay scales by themselves aren't a grand slam, but they're solid. The lifestyle tweaks appear very good.
Our vacation credit is among industry leading and we get 3 GDOS with each group of 5 days days off.

We can now "trade" 2 pairing each month (at first 48 hours post sched release) with OT pairings to tweak our schedule. Partial trades are back, as are gate trades.
Not to mention Flica, no fault commuting policy - there's a lot of flexibility.

Someone asked about MMG, our MMG remains 77.5, I'm usually blocked about 82. Depending on how I bid (single days vs sun layovers) I average 12 days a month scheduled. Some more, some less. This month is 16 days because I chased sun layovers.

In terms of raw $$$ AC will beat us hands down next CA. Lifestyle, I'd say we're ahead of all but the top 15% getting gravy schedules.

This CA appears like it's fixed a lot of $$ shortcomings, protected our careers (scope) while improving lifestyle.
I'm glad it passed.

[Hysteria]

I'm happy with this TA. We had a LOT of house cleaning to do, and we got it done.
Sure the pay scales by themselves aren't a grand slam, but they're solid. The lifestyle tweaks appear very good.
Our vacation credit is among industry leading and we get 3 GDOS with each group of 5 days days off.

We can now "trade" 2 pairing each month (at first 48 hours post sched release) with OT pairings to tweak our schedule. Partial trades are back, as are gate trades.
Not to mention Flica, no fault commuting policy - there's a lot of flexibility.

Someone asked about MMG, our MMG remains 77.5, I'm usually blocked about 82. Depending on how I bid (single days vs sun layovers) I average 12 days a month scheduled. Some more, some less. This month is 16 days because I chased sun layovers.

In terms of raw $$$ AC will beat us hands down next CA. Lifestyle, I'd say we're ahead of all but the top 15% getting gravy schedules.

This CA appears like it's fixed a lot of $$ shortcomings, protected our careers (scope) while improving lifestyle.
I'm glad it passed.

This may be a stupid question but can you do these ‘sun‘ layovers from yyc or yeg or are these trips bid by those based elsewhere?

[JBI]

This may be a stupid question but can you do these ‘sun‘ layovers from yyc or yeg or are these trips bid by those based elsewhere?

Each base gets a pretty good mix of layovers. Very generally speaking, YYZ gets more Caribbean layovers and the western bases get more Mexico/SW USA layovers.

You need to be ETOPs certified to do Hawaii layovers and those tend to be a little more base specific. In the past it was a little more: western crews did Hawaiis and YYZ crews did the Transatlantic stuff on the 737, but with all the changes that one's a little hard to predict. The YEG base is new and not at full capacity, so it'll take a bit of time to see what types of layovers they regularly get.