Ten year deal

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RippleRock
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Ten year deal

Post by RippleRock »

This coming Monday afternoon, I'm hoping our new leadership trashes the 10 year "zero sum" deal that has left us "lesser" than when the damn thing started. Yes, TEN years of labor certainly (which is massive) was traded for no gain on our part. Nothing. What chumps.

It was quite arguably the stupidest thing that we as ACPA pilots could ever have done. A DECADE at 2% yearly pretty much garranteed backward movement as the BoC literally targets 2% inflation as "healthy". It's been nowhere near that, so we have been sliding backward ever since. We quite litterally "crossed our fingers" hoping for no more that 2% inflation for a decade so we could get NO FURTHER AHEAD. Its hard to get your head around. Seriously. To top it all off, any backward movement, when you subtract the 2% from the yearly COL increase, those "losses" were COMPOUNDED, so we got even further behind, EXPONENTIALLY. If one did the math on where we were at the outset of this 10 year outrage, and compared it to today, I promise you serious disappointment.

But wait there's more......then, to top off all that 2% stupidity, we agreed to "zero sum" bargaining re-openers every three years. So we were effectively allowed to "horse-trade" stuff we had for other stuff....THAT'S IT. ACPA would take a horse into negotiations, and come back with a donkey covered in crap....every single time.

If there's a better system of "ham-stringing" ourselves, I don't have any clue what it is.


FWIW, if you don't get that this "change of direction" occurring right now, is the best opportunity to "right serious wrongs" in your generation, you had better get your head in the game. There is serious growth planned. Be in on it. Don't blow it.

Follow Charlene's lead. You can start by wearing your ALPA lanyard the moment you get it, if she says to.
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eurotrash
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by eurotrash »

RippleRock wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:39 am This coming Monday afternoon, I'm hoping our new leadership trashes the 10 year "zero sum" deal that has left us "lesser" than when the damn thing started. Yes, TEN years of labor certainly (which is massive) was traded for no gain on our part. Nothing. What chumps.

It was quite arguably the stupidest thing that we as ACPA pilots could ever have done. A DECADE at 2% yearly pretty much garranteed backward movement as the BoC literally targets 2% inflation as "healthy". It's been nowhere near that, so we have been sliding backward ever since. We quite litterally "crossed our fingers" hoping for no more that 2% inflation for a decade so we could get NO FURTHER AHEAD. Its hard to get your head around. Seriously. To top it all off, any backward movement, when you subtract the 2% from the yearly COL increase, those "losses" were COMPOUNDED, so we got even further behind, EXPONENTIALLY. If one did the math on where we were at the outset of this 10 year outrage, and compared it to today, I promise you serious disappointment.

But wait there's more......then, to top off all that 2% stupidity, we agreed to "zero sum" bargaining re-openers every three years. So we were effectively allowed to "horse-trade" stuff we had for other stuff....THAT'S IT. ACPA would take a horse into negotiations, and come back with a donkey covered in crap....every single time.

If there's a better system of "ham-stringing" ourselves, I don't have any clue what it is.


FWIW, if you don't get that this "change of direction" occurring right now, is the best opportunity to "right serious wrongs" in your generation, you had better get your head in the game. There is serious growth planned. Be in on it. Don't blow it.

Follow Charlene's lead. You can start by wearing your ALPA lanyard the moment you get it, if she says to.
hear hear!!
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Fidget
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by Fidget »

RippleRock wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:39 am
Follow Charlene's lead. You can start by wearing your ALPA lanyard the moment you get it, if she says to.
The thing is, it’s not allowed in the FOM. She will have to get that changed if ALPA wants us to wear it. We can take off the company lanyard as an option.
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Montroyal
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by Montroyal »

Fidget wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:30 am
RippleRock wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:39 am
Follow Charlene's lead. You can start by wearing your ALPA lanyard the moment you get it, if she says to.
The thing is, it’s not allowed in the FOM. She will have to get that changed if ALPA wants us to wear it. We can take off the company lanyard as an option.
When Delta did their "no hats" campaign, did they ask the company if it was ok?
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Fidget
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by Fidget »

I don’t know. I don’t work for them.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by ZBBYLW »

Fidget wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:30 am
RippleRock wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:39 am
Follow Charlene's lead. You can start by wearing your ALPA lanyard the moment you get it, if she says to.
The thing is, it’s not allowed in the FOM. She will have to get that changed if ALPA wants us to wear it. We can take off the company lanyard as an option.
Honestly if we don't have the fortitude to collectively wear a laynard we may as well determine that the benchmark has been met.

Negotiations will require pilots to all row together, which admittedly is going to be a different approach that Air Canada pilots may be used to. The kind of unity displayed from our WestJet brothers and sisters which we have never seen at AC.

Let's start rowing together. Whether it's laynards "hats off for an epic contract", or Draft and Drop only for extra flying we need to get 4500 of us on the same page.
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by Ash Ketchum »

I'm on board, I have already depleted my savings since starting here so if I have to wait another year on flat pay for negotiations to start I will need to look for another better paying job.
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Bede
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by Bede »

RippleRock wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:39 am This coming Monday afternoon, I'm hoping our new leadership trashes the 10 year "zero sum" deal that has left us "lesser" than when the damn thing started. Yes, TEN years of labor certainly (which is massive) was traded for no gain on our part. Nothing. What chumps.
It is what it is- you learn from it. At WJ we went years without ALPA, and looking back, we should have certified years earlier.

The important thing is that you look forward to the goals that you've set and avoid acrimony based on past decisions and priorities.
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YYZshill
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by YYZshill »

Wouldn't recommend wearing a lanyard if you're on probation
ZBBYLW wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:42 am
Fidget wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:30 am
RippleRock wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:39 am
Follow Charlene's lead. You can start by wearing your ALPA lanyard the moment you get it, if she says to.
The thing is, it’s not allowed in the FOM. She will have to get that changed if ALPA wants us to wear it. We can take off the company lanyard as an option.
Honestly if we don't have the fortitude to collectively wear a laynard we may as well determine that the benchmark has been met.

Negotiations will require pilots to all row together, which admittedly is going to be a different approach that Air Canada pilots may be used to. The kind of unity displayed from our WestJet brothers and sisters which we have never seen at AC.

Let's start rowing together. Whether it's laynards "hats off for an epic contract", or Draft and Drop only for extra flying we need to get 4500 of us on the same page.
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RippleRock
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by RippleRock »

Fidget wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:30 am
RippleRock wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:39 am
Follow Charlene's lead. You can start by wearing your ALPA lanyard the moment you get it, if she says to.
The thing is, it’s not allowed in the FOM. She will have to get that changed if ALPA wants us to wear it. We can take off the company lanyard as an option.
There is not ONE carrier under the ALPA banner where the pilots don't wear the lanyard. Not one. Will we be the first? Perhaps we should reassess our suitability for ALPA representation. Reassess quickly.... why waste our time?

I remember when we "binned" the red ACPA lanyard due to this. We immediately put our tail between our legs, not a whimper. This is a "union busting" clause. We all know its intent.

Act accordingly, but we all act TOGETHER. This starts on the ground level.



FWIW, ---FOLLOW Charlene's lead---, We move forward UNITED or not at all. Wait for the newsletter.
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genetic jack hammer
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by genetic jack hammer »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:41 am I'm on board, I have already depleted my savings since starting here so if I have to wait another year on flat pay for negotiations to start I will need to look for another better paying job.
You knew what flat pay was before you joined AC. From management's perspective, why would they even consider getting rid of flat pay (as stupid as it is)? There's no shortage of applicants, from all facets, eager to get into the next ground school.
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RippleRock
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by RippleRock »

Bede wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:49 am
RippleRock wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 10:39 am This coming Monday afternoon, I'm hoping our new leadership trashes the 10 year "zero sum" deal that has left us "lesser" than when the damn thing started. Yes, TEN years of labor certainly (which is massive) was traded for no gain on our part. Nothing. What chumps.
It is what it is- you learn from it. At WJ we went years without ALPA, and looking back, we should have certified years earlier.

The important thing is that you look forward to the goals that you've set and avoid acrimony based on past decisions and priorities.
The problem is, 10 years of ZERO sum bargaining have left the group completely deflated. We were used to our negotiating reps heading into the "reopeners" and coming back with sketchy gains in trade for loopholes that those across the table could take advantage of. The results were ALWAYS worse than when they went in. It never failed. It was downright depressing, especially with the stock rising to over $50.

There needs to be a complete paradigm shift. We need to forget those years --TODAY-- and move forward assertively. We need to take a really good look at what's going on around us and ask ourselves if we want to be a part of the change occurring, or we just want to act as an observer. Make a choice, then ACT.

Follow Charlene's lead. What's around her neck?
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RippleRock
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by RippleRock »

genetic jack hammer wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:58 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:41 am I'm on board, I have already depleted my savings since starting here so if I have to wait another year on flat pay for negotiations to start I will need to look for another better paying job.
You knew what flat pay was before you joined AC. From management's perspective, why would they even consider getting rid of flat pay (as stupid as it is)? There's no shortage of applicants, from all facets, eager to get into the next ground school.
Ok....here's a question for you.

Why would any Airline do ANYTHING -other than nothing- to raise any wage on any level? Why would they bother? Why did Onex put $400,000,000 on the table for the pilots if it didn't have to? I'm not following the logic.

Can you answer that? Don't use the supply issue, as very few carriers are short of applicants at this level, and it's a cop out excuse anyways.

FWIW..... How did Delta do it? American, boy they did well. United...nice. Hawaiian has 5th year 321 FO's making more than our year 12 777 Skippers, strange eh. How did that happen? Porter...nice gains on some levels. Flair? Jetblue?


Here's another point. -Not one new hire- at this company is naive enough think that wages in the first four years are going to remain in place for more than a year from today, NOT ONE. If they did, they either wouldn't have come here because the wage is an embarrassment and it's "unlivable" on any base in the system, or they would be planning to take their endorsement elsewhere.

It's very myopic to think that they are coming here and are happy with the pay status as it is, especially with all the massive leaps in gains being made all around us.
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Last edited by RippleRock on Mon May 29, 2023 9:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
lownslow
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by lownslow »

RippleRock wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:23 am It's very myopic to think that they are coming here and are happy with the pay status as it is
You said it yourself: they’re unhappy about it but they’re still here. From a cold, unfeeling bean counter perspective that’s perfect.
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RippleRock
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by RippleRock »

lownslow wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:03 am
RippleRock wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:23 am It's very myopic to think that they are coming here and are happy with the pay status as it is
You said it yourself: they’re unhappy about it but they’re still here. From a cold, unfeeling bean counter perspective that’s perfect.
Paying pilots -nothing at all- is also perfect from a "bean counters" perspective. Paying nothing for fuel would be perfect too, but they pay for it anyways.

I'm not sure what point you're making. If it had anything to do with the "supply issue" holding down wages, that's simply a cop out. Every other group is "standing up" for the integrity of the profession and correcting WACON issues, and not "all" are facing pilot applicant shortages. Why shouldn't we make similar improvements top to bottom? Tell me exactly why.
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genetic jack hammer
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by genetic jack hammer »

No one ever said that you shouldn't make similar improvements from top to bottom. No one, not one person. Somebody had to take the bull by the horns and cudo's to the WJ pilots for taking it as far as they did. We ALL want AC to make significant gains,
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by cjp »

Guaranteed if AC could get away with the optics to pay pilots $0.00 to start - for a type rating and future at Canada's only national carrier, they would probably still have applicants.

As far as Porter goes - Air Transat, Westjet and you guys are guiding our future pay. Operation is gaining steam. I sense we have another raise for cabin and flight crew this fall, early winter.

Good luck in the re-opener, whenever it comes about.
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Last edited by cjp on Mon May 29, 2023 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by Torontomaplelaughs »

genetic jack hammer wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:58 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:41 am I'm on board, I have already depleted my savings since starting here so if I have to wait another year on flat pay for negotiations to start I will need to look for another better paying job.
You knew what flat pay was before you joined AC. From management's perspective, why would they even consider getting rid of flat pay (as stupid as it is)? There's no shortage of applicants, from all facets, eager to get into the next ground school.
This is pure management rhetoric

Does Delta, United, American, FedEx, UPS have a shortage of applicants?

No, of course not. In fact some aren't even hiring

Fact is, there is a growing & worsening pilot shortage. There are simply not enough pilots to meet demand. Jazz is shrinking. Mainline is upgauging with rumours of more widebodies

Either industry ponies up or they lose market share to people simply not traveling & US competition

Keeping it simple like US airlines and following union principles is critical if we want to capitalize on this leverage rich environment
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by flying4dollars »

genetic jack hammer wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:58 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:41 am I'm on board, I have already depleted my savings since starting here so if I have to wait another year on flat pay for negotiations to start I will need to look for another better paying job.
You knew what flat pay was before you joined AC. From management's perspective, why would they even consider getting rid of flat pay (as stupid as it is)? There's no shortage of applicants, from all facets, eager to get into the next ground school.
It's already been mentioned but just get you up to speed, the applicants are accepting the pay because the majority know there will be significant changes in the upcoming contract and people are wanting to secure seniority now in anticipation of this.
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a2btrail
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Re: Ten year deal

Post by a2btrail »

flying4dollars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:20 pm
genetic jack hammer wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:58 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:41 am I'm on board, I have already depleted my savings since starting here so if I have to wait another year on flat pay for negotiations to start I will need to look for another better paying job.
You knew what flat pay was before you joined AC. From management's perspective, why would they even consider getting rid of flat pay (as stupid as it is)? There's no shortage of applicants, from all facets, eager to get into the next ground school.
It's already been mentioned but just get you up to speed, the applicants are accepting the pay because the majority know there will be significant changes in the upcoming contract and people are wanting to secure seniority now in anticipation of this.
Yep - Anyone waiting for the results of the new AC ALPA Collective Agreement I can tell you it won't materialize until March 2024 or just before. Get your number first. Every month that goes by 70-80 pilots are hired. By Q1/Q2 of 2025 AC hiring rate will drop significantly.

According to AC we need 6000 pilots in total by 2025. Today we stand at 4800 roughly - this number is climbing every 2 weeks. Last class hired was May 17. The class size was 39. Two classes before that had 35 people each. Of course this is all predicated with current hiring conditions.

Do the math.
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