Pal airlines

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AV8tor123
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Pal airlines

Post by AV8tor123 »

Does anyone have any info on PAL out east? Left/Right seat pay?
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bear98
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by bear98 »

AV8tor123 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:01 pm Does anyone have any info on PAL out east? Left/Right seat pay?
Pretty quick Google search and the whole CBA will pop up for pal
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thedfa
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by thedfa »

Yes! 78 credits guarantee per month, overtime at 90+ credits.
F/O Classic starts: 48.94$ yr1, 51.31$/hr yr 2, etc... to year 10 76.23$/hr
F/O Q400 starts: 50.05$/hr Yr1, 52.39$/hr yr2. etc.. to year 10 77.35$/hr

Captain Classic: 85.32$/hr yr1, 89.48$/hr yr2, etc... to year 16 126.59$/hr
Captain Q400: 92.54$/hr yr1, 96.85$/hr yr2, etc... to year 16 130.57$/hr

12 guarantee days off per month
4 weeks of vacation when you start (2 vacation + 2 stat holidays)
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cdnavater
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by cdnavater »

thedfa wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:38 am Yes! 78 credits guarantee per month, overtime at 90+ credits.
F/O Classic starts: 48.94$ yr1, 51.31$/hr yr 2, etc... to year 10 76.23$/hr
F/O Q400 starts: 50.05$/hr Yr1, 52.39$/hr yr2. etc.. to year 10 77.35$/hr

Captain Classic: 85.32$/hr yr1, 89.48$/hr yr2, etc... to year 16 126.59$/hr
Captain Q400: 92.54$/hr yr1, 96.85$/hr yr2, etc... to year 16 130.57$/hr

12 guarantee days off per month
4 weeks of vacation when you start (2 vacation + 2 stat holidays)
Jeebus, well that’ll take the heat off the Jazz pilots for a bit, that being said, this is more like GGN 2.0 based on those pay scales and conditions.
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FL007
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by FL007 »

cdnavater wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:18 pm
thedfa wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:38 am Yes! 78 credits guarantee per month, overtime at 90+ credits.
F/O Classic starts: 48.94$ yr1, 51.31$/hr yr 2, etc... to year 10 76.23$/hr
F/O Q400 starts: 50.05$/hr Yr1, 52.39$/hr yr2. etc.. to year 10 77.35$/hr

Captain Classic: 85.32$/hr yr1, 89.48$/hr yr2, etc... to year 16 126.59$/hr
Captain Q400: 92.54$/hr yr1, 96.85$/hr yr2, etc... to year 16 130.57$/hr

12 guarantee days off per month
4 weeks of vacation when you start (2 vacation + 2 stat holidays)
Jeebus, well that’ll take the heat off the Jazz pilots for a bit, that being said, this is more like GGN 2.0 based on those pay scales and conditions.
Lol have you seen the Jazz pay scales? $84.00/hr and MMG that could change compared to $92/hr. Show me the EMB captain pay scales and compare them to Porter.

Based on this vs Jazz a PAL FO would make 5k more a year based on the MMG than at Jazz..

I have no skin in this game anymore, but literally across the board Jazz went from the best CBA in the industry to the worst. Every other company progressed and Jazz MEC took a decade long contract.

Hopefully from this they can at least try to raise the bar again and try to match PAL/Porter/etc Pay scales. Work on flow-through again with AC.

This is what Jazz needs, not pretend like this is anything like GGN/SR/EVAS. I really wish the best for everyone still there In purgatory, hopefully they get their act together and be that flagship regional again.
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cdnavater
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by cdnavater »

FL007 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:52 pm
cdnavater wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:18 pm
thedfa wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:38 am Yes! 78 credits guarantee per month, overtime at 90+ credits.
F/O Classic starts: 48.94$ yr1, 51.31$/hr yr 2, etc... to year 10 76.23$/hr
F/O Q400 starts: 50.05$/hr Yr1, 52.39$/hr yr2. etc.. to year 10 77.35$/hr

Captain Classic: 85.32$/hr yr1, 89.48$/hr yr2, etc... to year 16 126.59$/hr
Captain Q400: 92.54$/hr yr1, 96.85$/hr yr2, etc... to year 16 130.57$/hr

12 guarantee days off per month
4 weeks of vacation when you start (2 vacation + 2 stat holidays)
Jeebus, well that’ll take the heat off the Jazz pilots for a bit, that being said, this is more like GGN 2.0 based on those pay scales and conditions.
Lol have you seen the Jazz pay scales? $84.00/hr and MMG that could change compared to $92/hr. Show me the EMB captain pay scales and compare them to Porter.

Based on this vs Jazz a PAL FO would make 5k more a year based on the MMG than at Jazz..

I have no skin in this game anymore, but literally across the board Jazz went from the best CBA in the industry to the worst. Every other company progressed and Jazz MEC took a decade long contract.

Hopefully from this they can at least try to raise the bar again and try to match PAL/Porter/etc Pay scales. Work on flow-through again with AC.

This is what Jazz needs, not pretend like this is anything like GGN/SR/EVAS. I really wish the best for everyone still there In purgatory, hopefully they get their act together and be that flagship regional again.
The difference for Captains starting is not significant, current year 16 Captain Jazz 140.02, Current PAL year 16 125.50, 14.52/cdt difference
Jazz min guarantee is 75-85 MMPG 75 being lowest and they have 15 credits they can use to increase the block, I believe most have been blocked 80-85 or more for several months, my entire tenure at Jazz I averaged 80/mth, last 6 year were 85 due to training.
Comparing the salary at the min doesn’t fairly represent reality, as for starting pay when you factor pension it narrows the gap quite a bit.
Jazz DC plan Emp/Com, yr 1 4/4, 2-3 5/5, 4 6/6, 5 6/7, 6+ 6/8
PAL Yr 1 0/0, 2-5 6/4, 5-10 6/5, 10+ 6/6
In summary, the starting pay not that significant, the top pay at Jazz much higher, ok. Also, all Jazz positions pay the same, there are the same seats essentially, Q and RJ same pay. Are you implying because it’s a Jet we should be paid the same as ACs 220 but the Q pilots are worth less?
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FL007
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by FL007 »

cdnavater wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:37 pm
FL007 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:52 pm
cdnavater wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:18 pm

Jeebus, well that’ll take the heat off the Jazz pilots for a bit, that being said, this is more like GGN 2.0 based on those pay scales and conditions.
Lol have you seen the Jazz pay scales? $84.00/hr and MMG that could change compared to $92/hr. Show me the EMB captain pay scales and compare them to Porter.

Based on this vs Jazz a PAL FO would make 5k more a year based on the MMG than at Jazz..

I have no skin in this game anymore, but literally across the board Jazz went from the best CBA in the industry to the worst. Every other company progressed and Jazz MEC took a decade long contract.

Hopefully from this they can at least try to raise the bar again and try to match PAL/Porter/etc Pay scales. Work on flow-through again with AC.

This is what Jazz needs, not pretend like this is anything like GGN/SR/EVAS. I really wish the best for everyone still there In purgatory, hopefully they get their act together and be that flagship regional again.
The difference for Captains starting is not significant, current year 16 Captain Jazz 140.02, Current PAL year 16 125.50, 14.52/cdt difference
Jazz min guarantee is 75-85 MMPG 75 being lowest and they have 15 credits they can use to increase the block, I believe most have been blocked 80-85 or more for several months, my entire tenure at Jazz I averaged 80/mth, last 6 year were 85 due to training.
Comparing the salary at the min doesn’t fairly represent reality, as for starting pay when you factor pension it narrows the gap quite a bit.
Jazz DC plan Emp/Com, yr 1 4/4, 2-3 5/5, 4 6/6, 5 6/7, 6+ 6/8
PAL Yr 1 0/0, 2-5 6/4, 5-10 6/5, 10+ 6/6
In summary, the starting pay not that significant, the top pay at Jazz much higher, ok. Also, all Jazz positions pay the same, there are the same seats essentially, Q and RJ same pay. Are you implying because it’s a Jet we should be paid the same as ACs 220 but the Q pilots are worth less?
You're talking about year 16 when my point was recruitment. Look at years 1-8, they are not even comparable. Sure if you can manage making less than your peers for the first 8-10 years. Chances are 3/4 of those people are moving on to mainline well before that time.

I'm not implying "it's a jet" so you should make as much as a 777 since that's also a jet. My point is how do you think you'll retain someone left seat on an EMB when they can do a transition course and make a third more on the E2 on similar routes doing the exact same job at Porter? This point is reinforced with people not showing up to initial groundschools, they're not choosing to work at Ikea, they're going to Sunwing or Porter or Flair where they'll be making 20k more a year instantly. Better flow through to AC from these companies as well.

I do also remember a time when the 170s were at mainline.
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cdnavater
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by cdnavater »

FL007 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:53 am
cdnavater wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:37 pm
FL007 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:52 pm

Lol have you seen the Jazz pay scales? $84.00/hr and MMG that could change compared to $92/hr. Show me the EMB captain pay scales and compare them to Porter.

Based on this vs Jazz a PAL FO would make 5k more a year based on the MMG than at Jazz..

I have no skin in this game anymore, but literally across the board Jazz went from the best CBA in the industry to the worst. Every other company progressed and Jazz MEC took a decade long contract.

Hopefully from this they can at least try to raise the bar again and try to match PAL/Porter/etc Pay scales. Work on flow-through again with AC.

This is what Jazz needs, not pretend like this is anything like GGN/SR/EVAS. I really wish the best for everyone still there In purgatory, hopefully they get their act together and be that flagship regional again.
The difference for Captains starting is not significant, current year 16 Captain Jazz 140.02, Current PAL year 16 125.50, 14.52/cdt difference
Jazz min guarantee is 75-85 MMPG 75 being lowest and they have 15 credits they can use to increase the block, I believe most have been blocked 80-85 or more for several months, my entire tenure at Jazz I averaged 80/mth, last 6 year were 85 due to training.
Comparing the salary at the min doesn’t fairly represent reality, as for starting pay when you factor pension it narrows the gap quite a bit.
Jazz DC plan Emp/Com, yr 1 4/4, 2-3 5/5, 4 6/6, 5 6/7, 6+ 6/8
PAL Yr 1 0/0, 2-5 6/4, 5-10 6/5, 10+ 6/6
In summary, the starting pay not that significant, the top pay at Jazz much higher, ok. Also, all Jazz positions pay the same, there are the same seats essentially, Q and RJ same pay. Are you implying because it’s a Jet we should be paid the same as ACs 220 but the Q pilots are worth less?
You're talking about year 16 when my point was recruitment. Look at years 1-8, they are not even comparable. Sure if you can manage making less than your peers for the first 8-10 years. Chances are 3/4 of those people are moving on to mainline well before that time.

I'm not implying "it's a jet" so you should make as much as a 777 since that's also a jet. My point is how do you think you'll retain someone left seat on an EMB when they can do a transition course and make a third more on the E2 on similar routes doing the exact same job at Porter? This point is reinforced with people not showing up to initial groundschools, they're not choosing to work at Ikea, they're going to Sunwing or Porter or Flair where they'll be making 20k more a year instantly. Better flow through to AC from these companies as well.

I do also remember a time when the 170s were at mainline.
My job is not recruitment and retention, but I compared PAL to GGN 2.0 because the wages posted in the top end are quite a bit lower, so long term it will lower the bar, ie; how do we improve ours if another company comes in a says we can do it for less?
We have a lot of pilots on or near the top scale, this is where the cheap replacement comes into effect, the whole reason we kept extending the contract to recapture the flying lost to the replacement companies, that’s the kick in the nuts, they literally created the problem and instead of fixing it, they repeat the exercise!
Initially Jazz would only need to bring up the starting pay a little to match, I didn’t go through the whole contract but just a quick glance and of course Jazz pilots cost the company more, that is the problem.
I think they will have a hard time filling the Captain spots but time will tell, we are back in “high level” discussions for improvement so we shall see.
You said we should compare our selves to Porter which is a 135 seat AC, we cannot generate the same revenue so we cannot compare ourselves to the E2, however Jazz should be for the reasons you mentioned.
A guaranteed path to AC, I mean iron clad with a number will keep some, that’ll have to be negotiated with AC ALPA, hopefully that comes with a 40% pay bump for them and maybe an inflation adjustment plus a bit for top end Jazz and a starting around 70, that would most likely fix our retention issues.
I suspect Jazz and AC are discussing parking the E175 fleet in return for some added revenue to the remaining fleet to cover short term fleet reduction ahead of the 2025 deadline.
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NotDirty!
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by NotDirty! »

If I were at Jazz, I would NOT be pushing for a flow agreement. Recent history has shown these don’t work the way we want them to, and adds perceived value to a contract that would be better served with more of the rectangular pieces of paper that can be exchanged for goods or services.

Jazz pilots will get hired at AC based on their own merit. They don’t need a flow agreement to make that happen. The WAWCON at Jazz should be the attraction for applicants, not the dangling carrot of “flow to big red”!
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cdnavater
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Re: Pal airlines

Post by cdnavater »

NotDirty! wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:00 pm If I were at Jazz, I would NOT be pushing for a flow agreement. Recent history has shown these don’t work the way we want them to, and adds perceived value to a contract that would be better served with more of the rectangular pieces of paper that can be exchanged for goods or services.

Jazz pilots will get hired at AC based on their own merit. They don’t need a flow agreement to make that happen. The WAWCON at Jazz should be the attraction for applicants, not the dangling carrot of “flow to big red”!
Sure, where does the rectangle paper come from?
The bar has been lowering since 2006 when they put Jazz on the stock market with a very lucrative CPA, after that it has been downward pressure and the margins are not there, so AC would have to pony up. They would rather repeat what has worked in the past, GGN or SR 2.0 than give more.
I find it disgusting that they created the problem but refuse to fix it, there are peoples livelihoods at risk, personal bankruptcy 10 years before retirement is not a great feeling to contemplate!
The lack of flow has been on going for quite a while, yet here we are with no willingness to fix the problem so if they care about Jazz at all, my suggestions were stem the mass exodus.
I do understand what and why you feel that way but we are dealing with greedy companies stuck in the past.
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