Socialized bidding

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paddy
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Socialized bidding

Post by paddy »

How does socialized bidding work at WestJet?
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dontcallmeshirley
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by dontcallmeshirley »

paddy wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:06 am How does socialized bidding work at WestJet?
WINGS is a points-based bidding system. The system will arrange the schedules in such a way that the
schedule is legal, all the pairings are covered, and the best possible global score based on the bids
submitted by the crew members is achieved. The global score is the total of all the scores for every crew
member in each category (categories are separated by base and rank). Because the system is trying to
achieve the best possible global score, it is in the best interest of the crew member to create the
greatest incentives for the system to provide the schedule they
want. Crew members can create higher incentives for the system by
employing good bidding strategies.
When a crew member submits a ‘desire bid’ the system gains points
if it awards that bid to the crew member. When a crew member
submits an ‘avoid bid’ the system will lose points if it gives that bid
to the crew member. The number of points gained or lost is
determined by the ‘Preference Level’ of the bid. The system will
always arrange the schedules so that the highest number of points
are awarded within the category, but not necessarily to each crew
member individually.
When a bid parameter can be honored multiple times in the month,
the system will score the points for each iteration of that bid. For
example, if a crew member bids to desire 3-day pairings with
Preference Level 5, the system will score 500 points for each 3-day
pairing that is awarded.
The point values associated with each preference level are separated into groups of 4. Bids placed at
preference levels 1-4 will have similar point values as each other, as will bids placed at 5-8, 9-12, and 13-
16. This allows the crew member to separate their bidding into groups and provide the system with
distinct levels of incentives. This separation allows crew members to prioritize certain types of bids over
others.
If a bid parameter is something that can be honored by a pairing that crosses into the subsequent
month, the system will score a fraction of the points equal to the proportion of the pairing that occurs in
the current month. For example, if a crew member bids for a three-day pairing at Preference Level eight,
and the system awards a three-day pairing that starts on the last day of the month, the system would
only get 100 points, which is one third of the points it would have earned if the whole pairing had
occurred in the month.
Bids that are submitted by crew members, that cannot physically be honored are deemed ‘non-
competing’ and will be ignored by the system
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ant_321
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by ant_321 »

I’m still really surprised that such a high percentage of westjet pilots wanted to keep socialized bidding.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

ant_321 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:52 pm I’m still really surprised that such a high percentage of westjet pilots wanted to keep socialized bidding.
It's a unique airline in that there's no growth. 10-15 year upgrades, 6 years on reserve for an FO. If we had seniority bidding there would literally be no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone. Socialized bidding is not going anywhere for us.
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Bede
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Bede »

ant_321 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:52 pm I’m still really surprised that such a high percentage of westjet pilots wanted to keep socialized bidding.
We typically run between 85-90% satisfaction scores. The satisfaction score is the number of points you get divided by the maximum number of points you could get if you were awarded everything you want. So basically, on average, you're getting 85-90% of what you bid.

I'm curious for those in seniority based scheduling systems, how high on the seniority list would you have to be to get 85-90% of what you bid for?
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goleafsgo
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by goleafsgo »

Bede wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:00 pm
ant_321 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:52 pm I’m still really surprised that such a high percentage of westjet pilots wanted to keep socialized bidding.
We typically run between 85-90% satisfaction scores. The satisfaction score is the number of points you get divided by the maximum number of points you could get if you were awarded everything you want. So basically, on average, you're getting 85-90% of what you bid.

I'm curious for those in seniority based scheduling systems, how high on the seniority list would you have to be to get 85-90% of what you bid for?
At my current airline I get 0-5% of what I bid so I’d gladly take a system that brings that up
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Jimmy_Hoffa
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

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Last edited by Jimmy_Hoffa on Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jimmy_Hoffa
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

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Last edited by Jimmy_Hoffa on Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jimmy_Hoffa
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

Bede wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:00 pm
We typically run between 85-90% satisfaction scores. The satisfaction score is the number of points you get divided by the maximum number of points you could get if you were awarded everything you want. So basically, on average, you're getting 85-90% of what you bid.

I'm curious for those in seniority based scheduling systems, how high on the seniority list would you have to be to get 85-90% of what you bid for?
I think it vastly depends on what individuals want and what the pairing package looks like as well as their knowledge of the bidding program they are using. Setting unrealistic goals is paramour to satisfaction. Not everyone can hold one leg to Barbados 24HR layover and one leg home or hold a 9 day schedule.

I believe the long and short answer lies more in the composition of the airline. If you have multiple fleets and can use your seniority as a choice to bid to a position that affords you the schedule you want or bid to a position junior for more money that will benefit more people in that system in general than a socialized system. If you take away people’s ability to bid for schedules that accommodate life then they will inevitably just bid the highest paying equipment they can hold and then bye bye junior upgrades and you just ride your number up the ladder one at a time. The ability to adjust your schedule to accommodate child care, your partners work schedule, or achieve other life goals such as pursuing a post secondary degree is invaluable.

Conversely, from the outside looking in, the socialized system seems to work for WJ due to the lack of choice to bid any other equipment for quality of life. So the socialized system seems to accomplish that for the most people working the constraints of the system.

-Jimmy
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stickontheice
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by stickontheice »

It’s a great system. I love it and want to keep it
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Loon-A-Tic
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

Jimmy_Hoffa wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:50 am
Bede wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:00 pm
We typically run between 85-90% satisfaction scores. The satisfaction score is the number of points you get divided by the maximum number of points you could get if you were awarded everything you want. So basically, on average, you're getting 85-90% of what you bid.

I'm curious for those in seniority based scheduling systems, how high on the seniority list would you have to be to get 85-90% of what you bid for?
I think it vastly depends on what individuals want and what the pairing package looks like as well as their knowledge of the bidding program they are using. Setting unrealistic goals is paramour to satisfaction. Not everyone can hold one leg to Barbados 24HR layover and one leg home or hold a 9 day schedule.

I believe the long and short answer lies more in the composition of the airline. If you have multiple fleets and can use your seniority as a choice to bid to a position that affords you the schedule you want or bid to a position junior for more money that will benefit more people in that system in general than a socialized system. If you take away people’s ability to bid for schedules that accommodate life then they will inevitably just bid the highest paying equipment they can hold and then bye bye junior upgrades and you just ride your number up the ladder one at a time. The ability to adjust your schedule to accommodate child care, your partners work schedule, or achieve other life goals such as pursuing a post secondary degree is invaluable.

Conversely, from the outside looking in, the socialized system seems to work for WJ due to the lack of choice to bid any other equipment for quality of life. So the socialized system seems to accomplish that for the most people working the constraints of the system.

-Jimmy
By most accounts it worked well at Rouge (Rev. 1) as well, many I know lament the loss of.
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Jimmy_Hoffa
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

Loon-A-Tic wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:05 pm
Jimmy_Hoffa wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:50 am
Bede wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:00 pm
We typically run between 85-90% satisfaction scores. The satisfaction score is the number of points you get divided by the maximum number of points you could get if you were awarded everything you want. So basically, on average, you're getting 85-90% of what you bid.

I'm curious for those in seniority based scheduling systems, how high on the seniority list would you have to be to get 85-90% of what you bid for?
I think it vastly depends on what individuals want and what the pairing package looks like as well as their knowledge of the bidding program they are using. Setting unrealistic goals is paramour to satisfaction. Not everyone can hold one leg to Barbados 24HR layover and one leg home or hold a 9 day schedule.

I believe the long and short answer lies more in the composition of the airline. If you have multiple fleets and can use your seniority as a choice to bid to a position that affords you the schedule you want or bid to a position junior for more money that will benefit more people in that system in general than a socialized system. If you take away people’s ability to bid for schedules that accommodate life then they will inevitably just bid the highest paying equipment they can hold and then bye bye junior upgrades and you just ride your number up the ladder one at a time. The ability to adjust your schedule to accommodate child care, your partners work schedule, or achieve other life goals such as pursuing a post secondary degree is invaluable.

Conversely, from the outside looking in, the socialized system seems to work for WJ due to the lack of choice to bid any other equipment for quality of life. So the socialized system seems to accomplish that for the most people working the constraints of the system.

-Jimmy
By most accounts it worked well at Rouge (Rev. 1) as well, many I know lament the loss of.

That’s mostly because Rouge took all the productive flying from the ML fleet. It was all productive and all good Caribbean flying. Also people were a super junior and not having to be on reserve… to the happiness score applied to AC has to be in context. Many many more were not happy directly because of rouge.

-Jimmy
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DBR691
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by DBR691 »

Is it possible to bid for a type of 16 day on and 14 day off block schedule (or something close to that) with WestJets bidding system ?
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fish4life
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by fish4life »

DBR691 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:16 am Is it possible to bid for a type of 16 day on and 14 day off block schedule (or something close to that) with WestJets bidding system ?
The duty regulations won’t allow that since it’s illegal to work that much so no airline can do that.
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dontcallmeshirley
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by dontcallmeshirley »

fish4life wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:19 am
DBR691 wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:16 am Is it possible to bid for a type of 16 day on and 14 day off block schedule (or something close to that) with WestJets bidding system ?
The duty regulations won’t allow that since it’s illegal to work that much so no airline can do that.
An Encore pilot has entered the chat.
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Romain
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Romain »

Is the socialized bidding available to everyone as soon as LID is done? Or is there like a reserve period for several months/years before being able to bid?
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RockSalty
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by RockSalty »

Romain wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:47 pm Is the socialized bidding available to everyone as soon as LID is done? Or is there like a reserve period for several months/years before being able to bid?
The bottom ~20% of the list for each position are reserve eligible, above that you'll hold a block and can bid for a schedule
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Romain
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Romain »

Ok so as long as you are in the bottom 20% it's only reserve. Can take several years to get out of it :? Thank you for your answer.
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by RockSalty »

Romain wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:07 am Ok so as long as you are in the bottom 20% it's only reserve. Can take several years to get out of it :? Thank you for your answer.
Most junior reserve eligible FO in YYZ is March 2020 (hardly counts, it skips to straight to July 2022 after that thanks to covid) so I wouldn't call it "years"
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Aviator12
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Re: Socialized bidding

Post by Aviator12 »

Spent 3 months on short call reserve (2 hr call out) in YYZ. 2022/2023. Have held a block ever since. Skipped long call (12 hrs). I’m assuming senior guys/gals are bidding for it now.
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