Hey,
Curious as to know how long ppl feel it should take to gain the Multi-IFR, providing that a Multi rating is already held.
From what I understand there is min. of 5 hrs required for the ride.
Don't want to be padding no log books with my wallet.
lemme know, cheers
Multi-IFR?????????
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
-
2ndthought
- Rank 0
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 9:00 am
- Location: 780
-
groundtoflightdeck
- Rank 6
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:56 pm
If you can hammer out all your procedures in the sim it will be cheaper. An IFR requires: Pre: 50 hrs PIC cross country, PPL, and an ME rating for group 1.
40 hrs of instrument instruction
20 hrs may be on sim
5 hrs from PPL
If you have your commercial then you may have another 10
You are looking at 10-15 aircraft and 10-20 sim time.
Its not a cheap rating- and take a fair bit of work.
Good Luck- GTF
40 hrs of instrument instruction
20 hrs may be on sim
5 hrs from PPL
If you have your commercial then you may have another 10
You are looking at 10-15 aircraft and 10-20 sim time.
Its not a cheap rating- and take a fair bit of work.
Good Luck- GTF
Depends on the student. I have some do it in 10hrs sims 10hs plane(our school was .7hrs from an ILS). I've had one 80 sim and 20 plane. The key to finding a 'padder' is sim time. If the guy you're with wants to get you into the plane without much sim, he is padding. A good instructor will make sure that you're good in the sim before he puts you in the $300/hr + plane. If you're in the GTA pm me.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
find a working pilot that flys IFR all the time such as a bag run pilot....
These guys and girls really know how to fly IFR, and will prepare you for reality not the insulated make believe world of the training industry.
Cat
These guys and girls really know how to fly IFR, and will prepare you for reality not the insulated make believe world of the training industry.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Once again Cat, word of wisdom.These guys and girls really know how to fly IFR, and will prepare you for reality not the insulated make believe world of the training industry.
Last summer while flying VFR to Quebec city, I heard an instructor ask Quebec Tower for a new sector for their IFR training flight due to bad weather. I flew about 1nm next to them. It was BKN 4500' with about 20 SM VIS.
I laughed for about a month.
Ben
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Yeah, Benwa :
I probably sound to negative a lot of the time.
But the facts are that the flying game has turned into a real con game for the unwary and the young people who see only the wonder of someday being a pilot.
Flight training has been turned into an industry to support an overbloated group of losers working for TC, and from what I can deduce the least gifted of the bunch end up in flight training.
The schools in some ways are as much a victim of rules and policies run amuck as the sheep they fleece to rake in enough dollars to survive the regulator.
Give me one month in charge of TC flight training with full authority to restructure the training industry and learning to fly would be the wonderful, pleasurable experience it should be.
Common sense is needed to get us back to basics and reality.
Meanwhile I will try and steer em down the right path.
Cat.
I probably sound to negative a lot of the time.
But the facts are that the flying game has turned into a real con game for the unwary and the young people who see only the wonder of someday being a pilot.
Flight training has been turned into an industry to support an overbloated group of losers working for TC, and from what I can deduce the least gifted of the bunch end up in flight training.
The schools in some ways are as much a victim of rules and policies run amuck as the sheep they fleece to rake in enough dollars to survive the regulator.
Give me one month in charge of TC flight training with full authority to restructure the training industry and learning to fly would be the wonderful, pleasurable experience it should be.
Common sense is needed to get us back to basics and reality.
Meanwhile I will try and steer em down the right path.
Cat.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
CAT, For that very reason I am thinking about renewing my instructor rating and teaching on a part time basis somewhere out of YYC....
As for the IFR question there are a lot of factors: location, equipment, instructor experience, student-instructor-plane ratio.....the list goes on.
I mean really an IFR ride is simple - Ground briefing (CAP/GEN, RAC section, and maps with real world questions). A take off (discuss aborted takeoff) and (full procedure) approach, missed approach, hold (entry and timing with possible emergency) and another approach to landing (usually either single engine ILS or circling) You will get a number of emergencies in the air - engine fire, emergency descent ETC....but really it's not that hard.
The hardest thing to get used to is how to manage your time. IE – you take off to intercept a radial, you complete a single engine missed approach, engine failure, and some other drills. By that point your say 25 KM away from approach fix. The instructor gives you a hold clearance. You proceed to the fix, brief the hold, then your smooth sailing right – wrong. You have 25 KM of flying to do, and if your not doing something it’s going to hit you in the hold when things are busy.
So, After the hold briefing is complete, I would ask for the anticipated approach – brief it. Once you get to the part where you brief the missed approach, I would ask the instructor for in the event of a missed what can I expect for a second approach, and have that plate ready (don’t brief it, you’ll confuse yourself, just have it handy). As for the radios I would have everything set for the hold (chances are the hold is on the inbound track for the approach) so I would have the second approach set up in the back up frequency. So when you go missed (believe me this is the busiest part of IFR flying, if your not prepared, you’ll get behind the plane fast) all you do fly the missed as briefed, toggle your NAV frequencies, flip open the plate you already looked at and brief it– all you have to do is fly the plane. Do this and things will go smooth, and impress the hell out of your instructor.
The trick is to stay at least one step ahead of the plane. It's all up to you in how long (how much $$$) it takes. Study, and it will go quick. Don't and it gets expensive.
Cheers.
As for the IFR question there are a lot of factors: location, equipment, instructor experience, student-instructor-plane ratio.....the list goes on.
I mean really an IFR ride is simple - Ground briefing (CAP/GEN, RAC section, and maps with real world questions). A take off (discuss aborted takeoff) and (full procedure) approach, missed approach, hold (entry and timing with possible emergency) and another approach to landing (usually either single engine ILS or circling) You will get a number of emergencies in the air - engine fire, emergency descent ETC....but really it's not that hard.
The hardest thing to get used to is how to manage your time. IE – you take off to intercept a radial, you complete a single engine missed approach, engine failure, and some other drills. By that point your say 25 KM away from approach fix. The instructor gives you a hold clearance. You proceed to the fix, brief the hold, then your smooth sailing right – wrong. You have 25 KM of flying to do, and if your not doing something it’s going to hit you in the hold when things are busy.
So, After the hold briefing is complete, I would ask for the anticipated approach – brief it. Once you get to the part where you brief the missed approach, I would ask the instructor for in the event of a missed what can I expect for a second approach, and have that plate ready (don’t brief it, you’ll confuse yourself, just have it handy). As for the radios I would have everything set for the hold (chances are the hold is on the inbound track for the approach) so I would have the second approach set up in the back up frequency. So when you go missed (believe me this is the busiest part of IFR flying, if your not prepared, you’ll get behind the plane fast) all you do fly the missed as briefed, toggle your NAV frequencies, flip open the plate you already looked at and brief it– all you have to do is fly the plane. Do this and things will go smooth, and impress the hell out of your instructor.
The trick is to stay at least one step ahead of the plane. It's all up to you in how long (how much $$$) it takes. Study, and it will go quick. Don't and it gets expensive.
Cheers.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
I remember a few years ago, I was doing PPC training in a Kingair 100 for a company in Manitoba and one of their instructor pilots was in the left seat. We got a block of airspace and were trucking along. I asked him to rip off a 45 degree bank turm to the left and he kept flying level. I said "When are you going to turn" "Just as soon as we get past this cloud". "FERCRISTSAKE, tip a wing down and stomp on the rudder. I then seached around and found the bumpiest, wettest old cloud I could find, steered him into it and made him stay in it. Even had him manually crank the gear down and reengage and bring the gear up. Lost an engine in the middle, got that straighten up, got the engine back and then lost the inverter. Poor young pup was almost begging for mercy but we got the job done and he aced the checkride with TC. on another trip, I had a young rightseater almost jump out of his skin when ice was banging off the side of the fuselage. He had never ever heard of that happening. Yet he had an IFR for a couple of years.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
We need people who understand that IFR flying is the safest and easiest type of flying there is.
There is far to much mush and B.S. involved in most of the training today, both of you know that, and I am sure agree what the industry needs is indipendant teachers out there completely separated from the culture that has evolved, thanks to the morons that structure the training industry.
I had intended to spend the last years of my career in the training end of flying, however my revulsion with the manner in which TC civil Aviation conducts their business in my region has made me decide I don't need this in my life.
For what ever it may be worth to those a..holes a 800 Burrard that forced me to abandon any thoughts of teaching the art of flying I have carried more ice on the outside of airplanes flying through weather than most of them have carried weight inside the airplane.
So those of you who understand the purity and simplicity of flying keep at it and ignore all the crap, just stick to basics like have the fu.kin flight planned ahead to the landing before you even get in the airplane........it ain't all that difficult.
And most important teach as a independant entity, any garbage sent to you by TC, just mark it "return to sender ' and throw it back in the mail.
Cat............. your advisor for professional aviation.
There is far to much mush and B.S. involved in most of the training today, both of you know that, and I am sure agree what the industry needs is indipendant teachers out there completely separated from the culture that has evolved, thanks to the morons that structure the training industry.
I had intended to spend the last years of my career in the training end of flying, however my revulsion with the manner in which TC civil Aviation conducts their business in my region has made me decide I don't need this in my life.
For what ever it may be worth to those a..holes a 800 Burrard that forced me to abandon any thoughts of teaching the art of flying I have carried more ice on the outside of airplanes flying through weather than most of them have carried weight inside the airplane.
So those of you who understand the purity and simplicity of flying keep at it and ignore all the crap, just stick to basics like have the fu.kin flight planned ahead to the landing before you even get in the airplane........it ain't all that difficult.
And most important teach as a independant entity, any garbage sent to you by TC, just mark it "return to sender ' and throw it back in the mail.
Cat............. your advisor for professional aviation.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
It's funny how someone with no experience and a class 4 with an IFR rating can teach IFR and give a letter. I also find it funny that a class one with an IFR rating and .3 actuall thinks he is good at it as well. The time is coming when it will take some real experience before a letter can be signed.
I wish I could spell
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
some years ago I was in our regional TC office with a student that I had given a multi IRF to, the TC guy behind the counter said who is this . .?, I don't know him.
So I said it's me.
He asked me if I was a flight instructor and I said no.
He then said well we prefeer that flight instructors do IFR training.
I said what did he have against someone with a life time of IFR flying doing the training. And he said in his opinion only flight instructors should be allowed to train pilots.
So I told him that is why he was serving me behind the counter, because he was to fu.kin stupid to do anything else.
Anyhow he went berserk and his boss finally came out of his office to find out what all the racket was about.
After about ten minutes of rather tense discussion I got the paper work done and told both of them that it was worth the trip just to see how truly stupid some TC types really are.
So there is your answer, the mind set in TC is evident in the above example.
And I am not in the least reluctant to demand that they do what they are paid to do and keep their idiotic personal opinions out of it.
Cat
So I said it's me.
He asked me if I was a flight instructor and I said no.
He then said well we prefeer that flight instructors do IFR training.
I said what did he have against someone with a life time of IFR flying doing the training. And he said in his opinion only flight instructors should be allowed to train pilots.
So I told him that is why he was serving me behind the counter, because he was to fu.kin stupid to do anything else.
Anyhow he went berserk and his boss finally came out of his office to find out what all the racket was about.
After about ten minutes of rather tense discussion I got the paper work done and told both of them that it was worth the trip just to see how truly stupid some TC types really are.
So there is your answer, the mind set in TC is evident in the above example.
And I am not in the least reluctant to demand that they do what they are paid to do and keep their idiotic personal opinions out of it.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Big Pistons Forever
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5956
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
- Location: West Coast
2nd Thought
A couple of points.
1) You are a customer about to spend big bucks, do not be afraid to interview your instructor to see if they deserve your custom. IMHO the ideal instructor should have some actual line IFR experience and a proven track record of happy and sucessfull students. Just because he or she is an ace IFR pilot doesn't mean they are any good at imparting that skill to others. Talking to past students will give you a good feel about how effective your instructor is. Almost as useless are the ones who's only experience flying IFR is to the same 3 training airports. The tips you get from someone who has used the IFR system in the real world are invaluable.
2) You get out of training what you put in. The secret to an IFR rating in minimum time is doing your homework. Study the proceedures untill you have them down cold and use the airplane sitting on the ramp to practice normal and emergency procedures.
3) The point of IFR training is not to finish in an arbitrary number of hours, it is to be a competant IFR pilot. Some folks may need some extra hours others may not, it doesn't matter. However if you feel your instructor is milking you talk to the school CFI/manager right away.
4) For the actual ride, pump your buddies on what the examinar likes and what is the latest Fed trick question. Show up totally prepared, wearing a shirt and tie, and the ride will be easy.
Good Luck
A couple of points.
1) You are a customer about to spend big bucks, do not be afraid to interview your instructor to see if they deserve your custom. IMHO the ideal instructor should have some actual line IFR experience and a proven track record of happy and sucessfull students. Just because he or she is an ace IFR pilot doesn't mean they are any good at imparting that skill to others. Talking to past students will give you a good feel about how effective your instructor is. Almost as useless are the ones who's only experience flying IFR is to the same 3 training airports. The tips you get from someone who has used the IFR system in the real world are invaluable.
2) You get out of training what you put in. The secret to an IFR rating in minimum time is doing your homework. Study the proceedures untill you have them down cold and use the airplane sitting on the ramp to practice normal and emergency procedures.
3) The point of IFR training is not to finish in an arbitrary number of hours, it is to be a competant IFR pilot. Some folks may need some extra hours others may not, it doesn't matter. However if you feel your instructor is milking you talk to the school CFI/manager right away.
4) For the actual ride, pump your buddies on what the examinar likes and what is the latest Fed trick question. Show up totally prepared, wearing a shirt and tie, and the ride will be easy.
Good Luck
Try to hook up a deal to get solo use of the simulator if they have one. We usually let students doing renewals use our sim solo as much as they like for a set charge (kind of a new thing we've been trying). This has been very effective in letting students run through the ride many times before actually setting foot in the aircraft.
For initial IFR, solo use of the sim seems to be a large predictor of how prepared students are for the ride when the time comes...it's not loggable time, but running through the procedures on a good sim (one that displays tracks on an "instructor station" is great) is invaluable.
BTW, Cat driver, I couldn't agree with you more. Having instructors with a bare minimum of IFR experience is nothing compared to getting taught "real" IFR by a seasoned pro. The problem...how many seasoned pro's want to instruct for chicken scratch? I love this business, but man, my daughter is starting to lose her taste for rock soup. Thank god there's protein in lichens.
Pugster
For initial IFR, solo use of the sim seems to be a large predictor of how prepared students are for the ride when the time comes...it's not loggable time, but running through the procedures on a good sim (one that displays tracks on an "instructor station" is great) is invaluable.
BTW, Cat driver, I couldn't agree with you more. Having instructors with a bare minimum of IFR experience is nothing compared to getting taught "real" IFR by a seasoned pro. The problem...how many seasoned pro's want to instruct for chicken scratch? I love this business, but man, my daughter is starting to lose her taste for rock soup. Thank god there's protein in lichens.
Pugster
I agree that it would be great to have a seasoned IFR pilot conduct training for IFR ratings. However here is the problem.
Unless someone has been an instructor of some type, most of the time they simply cannot teach. You can know every IFR procedure like the back of your hand, but if you cannot relate it to a student, then you are simply worse off than a newbie instructor that can relate the basics to a student.
The ideal world would have experienced pilots who WERE instructors renewing their rating and then conducting the training. Experience in both areas is necessary.
I have encountered this personally when renewing my MIFR. It had been about 3 years since my last MIFR ride so I thought, hey it would be great to renew with Joe Blow because hes been in the industry for years. I go up with the guy a couple times, and frankly I would have been better off without him there. This also happened to me years ago getting a taildragger checkout. The "experienced pilot" could fly the airplane into a 2 point with is eyes closed, but I learned nothing from him.
The MIFR is procedures. Lets face it - how many of us have recently flown a hold - accurately??? And what about a full procedure approach. Yeah, we would likely be able to do it without a hitch, but could we analyze a student well enough to teach him ALL of the tricks and tips? We would be able to tell someone well enough about all of our experiences, but would we be an effective teacher? Not likely.
Anyway, back to my MIFR recurrency - I went to a flight school and went up with an instructor after my 2 flights with joe blow. After 1 flight with the instructor, I was more than ready. Money and time well spent in my mind.
Unless someone has been an instructor of some type, most of the time they simply cannot teach. You can know every IFR procedure like the back of your hand, but if you cannot relate it to a student, then you are simply worse off than a newbie instructor that can relate the basics to a student.
The ideal world would have experienced pilots who WERE instructors renewing their rating and then conducting the training. Experience in both areas is necessary.
I have encountered this personally when renewing my MIFR. It had been about 3 years since my last MIFR ride so I thought, hey it would be great to renew with Joe Blow because hes been in the industry for years. I go up with the guy a couple times, and frankly I would have been better off without him there. This also happened to me years ago getting a taildragger checkout. The "experienced pilot" could fly the airplane into a 2 point with is eyes closed, but I learned nothing from him.
The MIFR is procedures. Lets face it - how many of us have recently flown a hold - accurately??? And what about a full procedure approach. Yeah, we would likely be able to do it without a hitch, but could we analyze a student well enough to teach him ALL of the tricks and tips? We would be able to tell someone well enough about all of our experiences, but would we be an effective teacher? Not likely.
Anyway, back to my MIFR recurrency - I went to a flight school and went up with an instructor after my 2 flights with joe blow. After 1 flight with the instructor, I was more than ready. Money and time well spent in my mind.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Interesting comments 172 Driver.
Maybe the best idea then would be to find an experienced pilot that can teach.
And please don't try and convince me that unless you have an instructors rating you can't teach because I have been on both sides of this issue and having an instructors rating means very little unless the person holding the rating has the ability to get the points across.
Your story about the tailwheel experience sounds interesting, why did you not learn anything from someone that could fly it with his eyes closed?
I would like to know more about an experience like that. Surely you must have picked up something from the time you spent with him?
.
Maybe the best idea then would be to find an experienced pilot that can teach.
And please don't try and convince me that unless you have an instructors rating you can't teach because I have been on both sides of this issue and having an instructors rating means very little unless the person holding the rating has the ability to get the points across.
Your story about the tailwheel experience sounds interesting, why did you not learn anything from someone that could fly it with his eyes closed?
I would like to know more about an experience like that. Surely you must have picked up something from the time you spent with him?
.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I was quite interested in the last two comments about the IFR renewals because I am involved with this type of thing on a regular basis and in our organization, we have a couple of pilots who are what we consider to be rather junior captains, which means they have around 7-800 hrs and about a years worth of command time as opposed to others who have half a lifetime in the left seat and on type. But these "newbe's" are ex instructors and as a training captain on the turboprops, they are unbeatable. They have the ability to get the message across. One can learn most of the "the tricks of the trade" in a classroom and from the old pro's but these guys have the ability to teach. They go for the jugular and cover in exacting detail what one might call the killer items. By learning the basics well, the rest is gravy. I am very fortunate in that I have a couple of instructor pilots on the King Airs and on the Metros and it sure makes my life easier. I did a Navajo checkride on a rampey about a year ago and this kid was as green as grass. He could fly the airplane well but he just didnt fit in with a two crew environment because it was his first kick at the cat. We decided to train him on the 350 King Air and I tell you, for a low timer, it is quite a jump from a 'Ho to that monster machine. Well, after 5 hours of training (by ex instructor pilots) I did his checkride and it was a thing of beauty. He really had his act together and I tribute that partly to skill, motivation and dedication but good training can take most of the credit. And that is something that is repeatable. That is my 2 cents worth.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
