???

[ameliapilote]

.

[RRJetPilot]

Yes.

[noreasterYHZ]

Lol!

I wonder if Sharky's cockpits are quiet after he tells his crew all about voting yes for concessions

[flyingcanuck]

luckily this mentality is over

[FNGYYZ]

I just wanted to add my vote for no union is perfect. But when it comes to Canadian unions i really like ACPA and what they have done to keep! Air Canada the top Canadian passanger airline to work for. For example there is no B scale pay at Air Canada. Once upgraded you make twice what a Jazz/Encore cpt makes.. but lets point out what Alpa has done. Constantly introducing B scale pay at companies. At Westjet they dropped the ball on so many levels.

AC is a great place to work. Pay is great for Canada, vacation time is great, options for career progression are great. Honestly you need to simmer down. If ALPA was at AC we would all be wearing pink by now. And the 10% loss on cargo pay... sure that sucks but you still make nearly $250 000 plus plus first year on the 767. Ill tell you what if you hate ACPA so much dont apply to AC because they will be around for years to come. Go to Westjet and take 15 to 20 years to upgrade. And when you do get Furloughed there enjoy getting called back to your similar "fleet" and wear pink. Good thing they have ALPA there to stop that... oh wait nvm people who wore blue have been recalled to pink on the new pay scale.... but dont worry swoop will never fly out of YYZ because they got ALPA. Mighty ALPA will stop that forsure.... oh shoot i spoke to fast that has already happened as well.

This is another epic post from an AC Pilot

Spoiler Alert: ALPA killed pink. ACPA killed itself and is now ALPA

[flyingfool]

"Pay is great and vacation time is great"



Oh man there are some serious dummies out there

[PositiveRate27]

Its 90% of mainline 767 wages. Big raise from the rouge flying.

With mainline working conditions to boot. It could bring hundreds of pilots back from the street and save some sense of career progression.

Anyone off of flat pay will be the highest paid cargo pilots in Canada.

One man, One vote.

The nice thing is when this passes because its a pretty ok deal you wont have to bid it. You can just bitch loudly and continuously to your FO on transcons while he ignores you and looks out the window.

I was looking at old posts during the cargo vote and are AC pilots really this stupid?

They take concessions to capture work and then just say you can just not bid it?!

Do other unionized occupations take permanent concessions to capture work while others in the industry don't?

Aren't AC pilots already the lowest paid and they took pay cuts?

And isn't there a worldwide pilot shortage?! Why do you need to capture jobs?!?

And now you want to negotiate gains after taking concessions???

How does that work. Honestly

Yes.




Btw this is the greatest thread idea I’ve ever seen. I’d love to see some quotes from the run up to the MOA vote.

[yycflyguy]

Its 90% of mainline 767 wages. Big raise from the rouge flying.

With mainline working conditions to boot. It could bring hundreds of pilots back from the street and save some sense of career progression.

Anyone off of flat pay will be the highest paid cargo pilots in Canada.

One man, One vote.

The nice thing is when this passes because its a pretty ok deal you wont have to bid it. You can just bitch loudly and continuously to your FO on transcons while he ignores you and looks out the window.

I was looking at old posts during the cargo vote and are AC pilots really this stupid?

They take concessions to capture work and then just say you can just not bid it?!

Do other unionized occupations take permanent concessions to capture work while others in the industry don't?

Aren't AC pilots already the lowest paid and they took pay cuts?

And isn't there a worldwide pilot shortage?! Why do you need to capture jobs?!?

And now you want to negotiate gains after taking concessions???

How does that work. Honestly

I was passionately against this MOA. It was sold during COVID as part of a deal that would “save” hundreds of layoffs. It was during the dark days of COVID when airlines were scrambling to generate new revenue streams. Enough pilots bought into the fear and agreed it was “new” flying that would mitigate furloughs. Not enough pilots thought through the down training and subsequent up training that would have been required. We furloughed 600 and the training department was a train wreck. Thanks MM, DC AND BM. It was an absolute joke that it passed and a big reason why ACPA is dead now.

The 767 is also considered a Narrow Body Jet at AC. The contract is seriously whacked.

[cdnavater]

Its 90% of mainline 767 wages. Big raise from the rouge flying.

With mainline working conditions to boot. It could bring hundreds of pilots back from the street and save some sense of career progression.

Anyone off of flat pay will be the highest paid cargo pilots in Canada.

One man, One vote.

The nice thing is when this passes because its a pretty ok deal you wont have to bid it. You can just bitch loudly and continuously to your FO on transcons while he ignores you and looks out the window.

I was looking at old posts during the cargo vote and are AC pilots really this stupid?

They take concessions to capture work and then just say you can just not bid it?!

Do other unionized occupations take permanent concessions to capture work while others in the industry don't?

Aren't AC pilots already the lowest paid and they took pay cuts?

And isn't there a worldwide pilot shortage?! Why do you need to capture jobs?!?

And now you want to negotiate gains after taking concessions???

How does that work. Honestly

I was passionately against this MOA. It was sold during COVID as part of a deal that would “save” hundreds of layoffs. It was during the dark days of COVID when airlines were scrambling to generate new revenue streams. Enough pilots bought into the fear and agreed it was “new” flying that would mitigate furloughs. Not enough pilots thought through the down training and subsequent up training that would have been required. We furloughed 600 and the training department was a train wreck. Thanks MM, DC AND BM. It was an absolute joke that it passed and a big reason why ACPA is dead now.

The 767 is also considered a Narrow Body Jet at AC. The contract is seriously whacked.

I’m curious, is the fact the 67 is a narrow body the reason the ratio wasn’t met and allowed the opening of the contract?
If so, seems like a good thing and maybe should stay that way

[lownslow]

I’m curious what the alternative was had the pilots voted no on that one. The company was pretty firm that they would not be returning with another offer and cargo flying would be cancelled, yet 767s were already having big doors cut into them which implies this operation was happening.
Would they have created some sort of CPA arrangement but for cargo?

For the record, I was not eligible to vote on this but I was and always have been against it.

[PositiveRate27]

Its 90% of mainline 767 wages. Big raise from the rouge flying.

With mainline working conditions to boot. It could bring hundreds of pilots back from the street and save some sense of career progression.

Anyone off of flat pay will be the highest paid cargo pilots in Canada.

One man, One vote.

The nice thing is when this passes because its a pretty ok deal you wont have to bid it. You can just bitch loudly and continuously to your FO on transcons while he ignores you and looks out the window.

I was looking at old posts during the cargo vote and are AC pilots really this stupid?

They take concessions to capture work and then just say you can just not bid it?!

Do other unionized occupations take permanent concessions to capture work while others in the industry don't?

Aren't AC pilots already the lowest paid and they took pay cuts?

And isn't there a worldwide pilot shortage?! Why do you need to capture jobs?!?

And now you want to negotiate gains after taking concessions???

How does that work. Honestly

I was passionately against this MOA. It was sold during COVID as part of a deal that would “save” hundreds of layoffs. It was during the dark days of COVID when airlines were scrambling to generate new revenue streams. Enough pilots bought into the fear and agreed it was “new” flying that would mitigate furloughs. Not enough pilots thought through the down training and subsequent up training that would have been required. We furloughed 600 and the training department was a train wreck. Thanks MM, DC AND BM. It was an absolute joke that it passed and a big reason why ACPA is dead now.

The 767 is also considered a Narrow Body Jet at AC. The contract is seriously whacked.

It was a masterstroke sell job from mgmt right down through the union. The fact that we don’t even have all the fins delivered yet and every single furlough can now hold NB captain should make people who defended the cargo MOA sick.

[CPU2000]

Some claim that the introduction of the 767F will not result in pilots being brought back. Nonsense. More flying, more work will bring back those on furlough sooner, all other things being equal. It is difficult to predict but I would suggest that 6 X 767F’s (about 100 jobs) would result in a recall six months earlier than what would otherwise happen. Given the lack of job opportunities out there, I would suspect most of the furloughed pilots would jump at coming back six months sooner.

Some suggest that agreeing to a 10% discount with the 767F would prejudice any negotiation should a 777F fleet be contemplated. That is simply non-sense and not how negotiations work. The pay rate, for example, that is negotiated is dependent upon the circumstances at the time and the relative strength of the two parties. Any one who claims otherwise has never been involved in a negotiation.

There are those that claim that if the margin between having this cargo division and not is the 10% “reduction” in mainline rates then don’t do a cargo division. On one level I would agree with this but on another I would submit that given the competitive environment, this might very well be the margin between profit and loss.

Anyone who thinks that any AC cargo pilot rates should be competitive with FedEx or UPS or DHL is fooling themselves. In addition to offering a completely different product (end-to-end package delivery), AC cargo will never be in that game; yes, it is cargo from take-off to landing but AC cannot ever be able to match the pick-up and delivery that these organizations offer.

AC’s comparator is CargoJet and, as described, it has to be competitive with it. That is who one should be comparing the pilot contract with.
And, AC’s pay rate, even at the 10% below mainline is still greater than CargoJet’s. It is true that the total wage at 63-hour block months is less than CargoJet’s 80+ hours per month, yielding a larger paycheque but what matters is how you are compensated for on an hourly basis. Work fewer hours, naturally one will make less.

Finally, here is the acid test. I would invite each and everyone of the naysayers to ask their non-airline family members, neighbours, etc. the following question: Would you reject an opportunity to create jobs that pay in excess of $180,000 per year during this current economic crisis? I would be shocked if, asked this question, that anyone would answer “yes”.

A blast from the past

Questions:

1) how many furloughs were brought back early "thanks to cargo"?

2) how many new hires are "forced into cargo"?

3) what will the 777F rates be now? Oh wait, we don't know thanks to this garbage deal

4) isn't AC's "Revo" which was announced literally a day after this deal considered "door to door delivery service" like FedEx?

5) how much more do Cargojet pilots make than AC pilots now?

6) what kind of idiot would take permanent concessions during a temporary crisis? Are AC pilots the only labor group without "snap up" clauses?

7) Does anyone think a pilot in charge of hundreds of lives isn't worth $180k? Do US airlines pilots making over double worry what others think about their salaries?

[unionism101]

I was looking at old posts during the cargo vote and are AC pilots really this stupid?

They take concessions to capture work and then just say you can just not bid it?!

Do other unionized occupations take permanent concessions to capture work while others in the industry don't?

Aren't AC pilots already the lowest paid and they took pay cuts?

And isn't there a worldwide pilot shortage?! Why do you need to capture jobs?!?

And now you want to negotiate gains after taking concessions???

How does that work. Honestly

I was passionately against this MOA. It was sold during COVID as part of a deal that would “save” hundreds of layoffs. It was during the dark days of COVID when airlines were scrambling to generate new revenue streams. Enough pilots bought into the fear and agreed it was “new” flying that would mitigate furloughs. Not enough pilots thought through the down training and subsequent up training that would have been required. We furloughed 600 and the training department was a train wreck. Thanks MM, DC AND BM. It was an absolute joke that it passed and a big reason why ACPA is dead now.

The 767 is also considered a Narrow Body Jet at AC. The contract is seriously whacked.

I’m curious, is the fact the 67 is a narrow body the reason the ratio wasn’t met and allowed the opening of the contract?
If so, seems like a good thing and maybe should stay that way

Lol...no...in the real world a Boeing 767 is a widebody

It would count towards the benchmarks

Just in the course right ACPAland is a 767 a NB

[aeronauticaldisaster]

I hate to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but this vote will pass by a wide margin.

The scope conspiracy is dead in the water...you have a very sad individual trying to beat that drum but that person has all sorts of other issues...

The fact is that ever since there have been social media bulletin boards, there has been a small and loud minority of pilots who vote NO for every vote...fortunately they represent 5-10% of the membership. They try and make it sound like there is a grassroots support for their theories for voting no, but they never deliver the votes. The say things like "I have never voted yes for any deal ACPA has presented in the past XX years". And yet the votes pass.

For some reason, they claim in their words and attitudes that they know more than the all of the MEC, Negots Committee, the professional staff of ACPA and all the external consultants that ACPA hires. They make vaguely worded accusations about trust, conspiracy, conflicts of interest...but can never point out a specific charge. Some people might call this arrogance.

I'm willing to admit that there are a lot of people who know a lot more about union contracts, labour law, negotiating etc.

Sadly the HARD NO group doesn't' even entertain the fact that they don't know what they are talking about.

Prolific YES voter & ACPA pom-pom waver Lt Dan has seemingly gone MIA since concessionary deals got tossed & ACPA got kicked to the curb while other pilot groups have gotten historic gains

[CaptDukeNukem]

I hate to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but this vote will pass by a wide margin.

The scope conspiracy is dead in the water...you have a very sad individual trying to beat that drum but that person has all sorts of other issues...

The fact is that ever since there have been social media bulletin boards, there has been a small and loud minority of pilots who vote NO for every vote...fortunately they represent 5-10% of the membership. They try and make it sound like there is a grassroots support for their theories for voting no, but they never deliver the votes. The say things like "I have never voted yes for any deal ACPA has presented in the past XX years". And yet the votes pass.

For some reason, they claim in their words and attitudes that they know more than the all of the MEC, Negots Committee, the professional staff of ACPA and all the external consultants that ACPA hires. They make vaguely worded accusations about trust, conspiracy, conflicts of interest...but can never point out a specific charge. Some people might call this arrogance.

I'm willing to admit that there are a lot of people who know a lot more about union contracts, labour law, negotiating etc.

Sadly the HARD NO group doesn't' even entertain the fact that they don't know what they are talking about.

Prolific YES voter & ACPA pom-pom waver Lt Dan has seemingly gone MIA since concessionary deals got tossed & ACPA got kicked to the curb while other pilot groups have gotten historic gains

This might be my favorite one so far. Where is Lt Dan?

[renelevesque]

.

[Freshredmeat]

Who wrote this??

[RVR6000]

Who wrote this??

The usual suspect would the guy running the YUL specific Facebook page.