Air Canada vs WestJet

[Hibeams]

Good afternoon all,

A friend of mine was offered a job at both Air Canada and WestJet. They are leaning more towards WestJet. Is the schedule at WestJet that much better that its worth skipping Big Red for? I appreciate any input.

Thanks

[Canadaflyer46]

I’d only take WJ if your friend is determined to live in YYC. Otherwise AC without a doubt.
The socialized bidding is championed by some on here, but it’s hit and miss. You can be 25 years in and not get your number 1 day off request, or you can get everything you ask for. There is zero accountability on what you’re given. I would personally prefer a light at the end of the tunnel which you get with a seniority system.
Something else to bear in mind is growth. Upgrades at AC have been around the 2 year mark, which I’m sure will be increasing now. At WJ it’s 9/10 years for a YYZ left seat, and 15 for YYC. It’s also currently 9 years to go right seat on the 787.

[Dias]

Good afternoon all,

A friend of mine was offered a job at both Air Canada and WestJet. They are leaning more towards WestJet. Is the schedule at WestJet that much better that its worth skipping Big Red for? I appreciate any input.

Thanks

Is this a comedy thread

[YHZCL]

Your friend needs to look at 1 fact and take 2 seconds to make their decision.

In recent years, how many Westjet pilots have left for AC??? Hundreds or more.

How many AC pilots have left for Westjet? Zero

There is a reason for this.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Your friend needs to look at 1 fact and take 2 seconds to make their decision.

In recent years, how many Westjet pilots have left for AC??? Hundreds or more.

How many AC pilots have left for Westjet? Zero

There is a reason for this.

On the other hand, you can look at the starting salary of $55k at AC and then look at the starting salary of $67k for the Q at Encore.

[Rooster69]

Your friend needs to look at 1 fact and take 2 seconds to make their decision.

In recent years, how many Westjet pilots have left for AC??? Hundreds or more.

How many AC pilots have left for Westjet? Zero

There is a reason for this.

On the other hand, you can look at the starting salary of $55k at AC and then look at the starting salary of $67k for the Q at Encore.

Back to :

In recent years, how many Westjet pilots have left for AC??? Hundreds or more.

How many AC pilots have left for Westjet? Zero

[Bede]

The socialized bidding is championed by some on here, but it’s hit and miss. You can be 25 years in and not get your number 1 day off request, or you can get everything you ask for. There is zero accountability on what you’re given. I would personally prefer a light at the end of the tunnel which you get with a seniority system.

I'll champion the socialized bidding system. I have got a total of 2 bad schedules since I started 13 years ago. WRT the comment above, yes that happens if you're not familiar with how the system works and you outbid yourself. If you ask for a day off, but then bid, let's say single days @ #2 and LAS turns at #3, if there's a single day LAS turn available on the day off requested, you'll likely be scheduled on your requested day off because the points awarded from #2 + #3 bid will exceed the points awarded had you been awarded your #1 bid. The system's goal is to optimize your points. The lady in charge of the bidding software is a gem and very helpful to new hires in giving suggestions on bidding strategies. Some people want weekends off, some want commutable pairings, some want sunny layovers and some want high credit one days. You can get anything you want: what you can't get is commutable single day pairings with weekends off.

When I was an FO (before new duty rules) I consistently worked 10 days/mo doing single day flying. That's still available, but likely not as abundant because of fewer high credit single days because of the duty rules.

Getting back to the original question, going by the current collective agreements (AC in negots right now and will hopefully see big changes), things better at WJ: pay, vacation (massively better at WJ), scheduling (IMO, especially for new hires)
Better at AC: upgrade time, diversity of flying (WB, international if that's your thing), job security (will AC ever fail?)

[canadian_aviator_4]

I think it comes down to a cost of living. If you want to own a home and don’t want to commute. Westjet in Yyc. If commuting is fine, AC. Otherwise if you want to rent forever, AC in YYZ, YVR or YUL. Although home prices are still somewhat accessible in Montreal from what I’ve heard.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I think it comes down to a cost of living. If you want to own a home and don’t want to commute. Westjet in Yyc. If commuting is fine, AC. Otherwise if you want to rent forever, AC in YYZ, YVR or YUL. Although home prices are still somewhat accessible in Montreal from what I’ve heard.

Or you can build a mansion in YWG with AC capt pay. Might take a while to get there tho

[canadian_aviator_4]

I think it comes down to a cost of living. If you want to own a home and don’t want to commute. Westjet in Yyc. If commuting is fine, AC. Otherwise if you want to rent forever, AC in YYZ, YVR or YUL. Although home prices are still somewhat accessible in Montreal from what I’ve heard.

Or you can build a mansion in YWG with AC capt pay. Might take a while to get there tho

Very true

[RVR6000]

Your friend needs to look at 1 fact and take 2 seconds to make their decision.

In recent years, how many Westjet pilots have left for AC??? Hundreds or more.

How many AC pilots have left for Westjet? Zero

There is a reason for this.

I don’t think the number is Zero, a bunch just left according to the bid that came out today. Apparently some have gone to Porter and Flair as well.

Can’t blame them, 4 years of flat pay blows.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Your friend needs to look at 1 fact and take 2 seconds to make their decision.

In recent years, how many Westjet pilots have left for AC??? Hundreds or more.

How many AC pilots have left for Westjet? Zero

There is a reason for this.

On the other hand, you can look at the starting salary of $55k at AC and then look at the starting salary of $67k for the Q at Encore.

Back to :

In recent years, how many Westjet pilots have left for AC??? Hundreds or more.

How many AC pilots have left for Westjet? Zero

I turned down AC to stay at WJ because I could not justify the nearly $50,000 pay cut, the years of reserve, and the seniority bidding.

I expect AC to get a big improvement in their contract, but until that is ratified, it's conjecture.

Your argument about the hundreds of pilots who have left is also without context. The majority of those pilots are Encore pilots who are taking less of a pay cut. They also have interviewed and gotten offers before the new WJA contract was implemented. Time will tell if the new contract will stem the bleeding or not.

As always, there will be people who take a different course.

[dialdriver]

Good afternoon all,

A friend of mine was offered a job at both Air Canada and WestJet. They are leaning more towards WestJet. Is the schedule at WestJet that much better that its worth skipping Big Red for? I appreciate any input.

Thanks

If you have to ask, you should go to Westjet.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Good afternoon all,

A friend of mine was offered a job at both Air Canada and WestJet. They are leaning more towards WestJet. Is the schedule at WestJet that much better that its worth skipping Big Red for? I appreciate any input.

Thanks

If you have to ask, you should go to Westjet.

It’s a “friend of theirs”

[slob driver]

I think it comes down to a cost of living. If you want to own a home and don’t want to commute. Westjet in Yyc. If commuting is fine, AC. Otherwise if you want to rent forever, AC in YYZ, YVR or YUL. Although home prices are still somewhat accessible in Montreal from what I’ve heard.

Or you can build a mansion in YWG with AC capt pay. Might take a while to get there tho

Not that many here likely care (but since I live in ywg, I certainly do;)) but as of October 1, there are going to be a much larger number of WJA captain spots in Ywg versus AC since WJA has now opened a B737 base there. 43 captain positions and 41 fo positions initially. Not a large base by any means, but it is actually larger than AC’s YWG A320 base.

[Aviator12]

I’d only take WJ if your friend is determined to live in YYC. Otherwise AC without a doubt.
The socialized bidding is championed by some on here, but it’s hit and miss. You can be 25 years in and not get your number 1 day off request, or you can get everything you ask for. There is zero accountability on what you’re given. I would personally prefer a light at the end of the tunnel which you get with a seniority system.

So 20 years later when the kids are all grown up you may finally have enough seniority to get Xmas off. By then it won’t matter to “have light at the end of the tunnel” You will have missed multiple important family events that you couldn’t get off because the senior 50-60 year old with kids all grown up outbids you every time.

As a family man this was one of the main reasons I declined AC and went with WestJet. Along with better pay, more vacation/time off, less time on reserve and overall much better QOL.

[goleafsgo]

I think it comes down to a cost of living. If you want to own a home and don’t want to commute. Westjet in Yyc. If commuting is fine, AC. Otherwise if you want to rent forever, AC in YYZ, YVR or YUL. Although home prices are still somewhat accessible in Montreal from what I’ve heard.

Or you can build a mansion in YWG with AC capt pay. Might take a while to get there tho

Not that many here likely care (but since I live in ywg, I certainly do;)) but as of October 1, there are going to be a much larger number of WJA captain spots in Ywg versus AC since WJA has now opened a B737 base there. 43 captain positions and 41 fo positions initially. Not a large base by any means, but it is actually larger than AC’s YWG A320 base.

I start at WJ in a few weeks and already hold YWG as an FO, it’s a few years I think to be able to hold YWG FO at AC

[780Pilot]

For me it came down to wanting to stay with family and in Alberta. So for me, WestJet is the best employer if I want to stay in YEG long term. I lived in YYZ for a year with my previous job and can confidently say I have zero interest in living there ever again.

A training captain of mine gave me some good advice. Chose where you want to live and start a family, then decide what operator you want to be at. So far this advice has worked out well. WestJet or AC, you will have a long and prosperous career either way.

[highlander]

An interesting topic indeed and an even more interesting "dilemma". Many of us (myself included) were NOT offered jobs at both carriers. I applied at AC and got PFO'd (apparently the polite one where you're in a pool or something and should reapply- but I digress). WJ offered me a job in 2007 after my AC interview bust. I applied at both carriers and with over 5000 hours at the time, I had no clue about salaries, schedules or pensions.... or lack thereof....I was just happy to be sitting at the table and "blessed" that someone picked my resume out of the pile. Times have changed.

It's funny how no one mentions the early 2000's.....was it 2003-2004 when AC furloughed a bunch of pilots and had some financial troubles. My point here is that AC hasn't always been the be all end all. It's the flavour of the month I suppose. Yes, pilots have left WJ for AC- but I believe there were far greater numbers from Encore leaving for AC than WJ. Yes a few mainline guys and gals have left as well.

In the time that I have been at WJ I have come to a few conclusions or deep thoughts. Here they are in general terms:

1) If I could talk to my younger self, I would tell me not to worry so much about chasing metal and money. Focus on your family. They'll be there for you through all of your ups and downs. It's amazing how many guys chase the metal and pay cheque only to see their respective airline fold. There are lots of pilots at WJ that were at C3, Royal, JetsGo, Canjet and Skyservice to name a few. You don't necessarily have to up root your family and nor should you. If you can fly where you live or commute.....then do it. Yes commuting sucks....(that's another topic).

2) It's not always about the money. I'm sure this is where everyone's eyes roll. Let me be clear- Sure- I would love to have a 400,000 or even a 500,000 salary like our neighbours to the south. But sometimes you have to be realistic. Fact- There will always be someone out there flying a bigger plane than you are and making more money to do it. Get over it.

3) Seniority, in my opinion, is great when you're in the top 1/3 of the list and lousy for everyone else. While seniority often makes things simple like equipment bids and schedules, it can also be a nightmare. Anyone here who thinks they'll finish their career in the top 1/3 of a pilot list...... well good luck....I hope it works out for you. I have come to the realization I may never see a left seat on the 787 and I'm ok with that.....see points 1 and 2 above.

4) Finally- perhaps the big one for me is this: Don't be in such a HURRY to make mistakes and then have to be responsible for them. This was advice a friend of mine once gave a new hire at a 703/704 operation.

Frankly, I'm amazed that a 1500 or even 3000 hour turbo prop experienced pilot is worried about an upgrade when they can't even figure out when to push ALT Intervention on the MCP panel when the plane goes into VNAV ALT. Sorry guys- the experience level at the major carriers is one of the lowest we've seen in several decades. That isn't to say these pilots are not capable. But it absolutely boggles my mind how anyone at that stage is worried about an upgrade when there's so much to learn about flying a 705 jet aircraft. Why the hurry to upgrade and make mistakes? It took me 8 years to upgrade and yes the last 6 months in the right seat were longggggggg.....but the time can go by quickly. Make the most of it. Learn as much as you can - not only about the equipment but about the type of leader you want to be.

For the record, AC pilots have left AC and I can name one who is a friend of mine. After flying the 787 at AC, they decided to head south (they have dual citizenship) and fly there. For them it was money. Having spoken to them and some other AC pilots- the two things I've heard consistently is that schedules suck and the training is mediocre compared to WJ. I can't speak to the validity of those two statements.

WOW - I got side tracked. Apologies.

Each airlines has its pro and cons. In my opinion, If you're living east of YWG- I would seriously consider AC. WJ has made no secrets that they plan to grow the west and you can see the reductions out east. If you have dreamed of seeing the world (for work) AC might be a better fit for you. If you live in YWG or west of YWG (for example) WJ is a great opportunity. One thing that no one here mentions are the people. I can't speak to AC, but I have always enjoyed the camaraderie at WJ (specifically with the pilots I fly with) and I have made many life long friends at the company. You're not just a number. As 780pilot said- both carriers will likely offer a long and prosperous career.

Your friend will need to choose wisely.

[cdnavater]

I’d only take WJ if your friend is determined to live in YYC. Otherwise AC without a doubt.
The socialized bidding is championed by some on here, but it’s hit and miss. You can be 25 years in and not get your number 1 day off request, or you can get everything you ask for. There is zero accountability on what you’re given. I would personally prefer a light at the end of the tunnel which you get with a seniority system.

So 20 years later when the kids are all grown up you may finally have enough seniority to get Xmas off. By then it won’t matter to “have light at the end of the tunnel” You will have missed multiple important family events that you couldn’t get off because the senior 50-60 year old with kids all grown up outbids you every time.

As a family man this was one of the main reasons I declined AC and went with WestJet. Along with better pay, more vacation/time off, less time on reserve and overall much better QOL.

As a family man myself I resent your characterization of the situation, you know what 50-60 olds have, grandchildren and years of missed holidays to make up for. Besides, even without grandchildren, my “kids” still came home for Christmas morning ever since they left home. That may change where we go visit them for the holidays but it’s absurd that you think someone who reaches an age doesn’t have a reason to have the holidays off, you’re the selfish one in this situation!
Seniority is what it is, you have none and get nothing, then you get some and someone junior to you resents you for using it, great system!
Sounds like you made a great decision to go to WJ, you would have been miserable in a seniority system

[fish4life]

I’d only take WJ if your friend is determined to live in YYC. Otherwise AC without a doubt.
The socialized bidding is championed by some on here, but it’s hit and miss. You can be 25 years in and not get your number 1 day off request, or you can get everything you ask for. There is zero accountability on what you’re given. I would personally prefer a light at the end of the tunnel which you get with a seniority system.

So 20 years later when the kids are all grown up you may finally have enough seniority to get Xmas off. By then it won’t matter to “have light at the end of the tunnel” You will have missed multiple important family events that you couldn’t get off because the senior 50-60 year old with kids all grown up outbids you every time.

As a family man this was one of the main reasons I declined AC and went with WestJet. Along with better pay, more vacation/time off, less time on reserve and overall much better QOL.

As a family man myself I resent your characterization of the situation, you know what 50-60 olds have, grandchildren and years of missed holidays to make up for. Besides, even without grandchildren, my “kids” still came home for Christmas morning ever since they left home. That may change where we go visit them for the holidays but it’s absurd that you think someone who reaches an age doesn’t have a reason to have the holidays off, you’re the selfish one in this situation!
Seniority is what it is, you have none and get nothing, then you get some and someone junior to you resents you for using it, great system!
Sounds like you made a great decision to go to WJ, you would have been miserable in a seniority system

The difference is when your kids are age 5-10ish Christmas is important to have on Christmas Day. Once you are older it doesn’t matter if it’s a few days before or after it’s not like a 21 year old kid believes in Santa anymore

[Curiousflyer]

AC currently has one of, if not the worst scheduling rules in the country. While accruing seniority does help the scheduling become more manageable, most people are completely unaware of how long this actually takes. On the narrow body, FO’s take 7-8 years to get a good schedule and Captains take 13-15 years.
Comparing the collective agreements, there are perhaps three articles that AC has has the upper hand with: Pension, Disability, and Sick Leave. All the others WestJet trumps AC.

[cdnavater]

So 20 years later when the kids are all grown up you may finally have enough seniority to get Xmas off. By then it won’t matter to “have light at the end of the tunnel” You will have missed multiple important family events that you couldn’t get off because the senior 50-60 year old with kids all grown up outbids you every time.

As a family man this was one of the main reasons I declined AC and went with WestJet. Along with better pay, more vacation/time off, less time on reserve and overall much better QOL.

As a family man myself I resent your characterization of the situation, you know what 50-60 olds have, grandchildren and years of missed holidays to make up for. Besides, even without grandchildren, my “kids” still came home for Christmas morning ever since they left home. That may change where we go visit them for the holidays but it’s absurd that you think someone who reaches an age doesn’t have a reason to have the holidays off, you’re the selfish one in this situation!
Seniority is what it is, you have none and get nothing, then you get some and someone junior to you resents you for using it, great system!
Sounds like you made a great decision to go to WJ, you would have been miserable in a seniority system

The difference is when your kids are age 5-10ish Christmas is important to have on Christmas Day. Once you are older it doesn’t matter if it’s a few days before or after it’s not like a 21 year old kid believes in Santa anymore

So, it’s not important to celebrate Christmas Day with my grandchildren?
I’ll tell you what, you tell my wife with the 30 bins of decorations and two trees, one for upstairs and one for downstairs that the day doesn’t matter! Let me know how that goes, she’s small but pretty darn terrifying!
Btw, that was it in my house until I got enough seniority, Christmas was whatever day around that time I could be home, I don’t feel guilty one bit that I take the time off, as I indicated, it’s an important holiday to my wife, therefore it’s important to me and I did not ever begrudge the senior pilots for taking it when they could.
For Christ sake, the generation of want it now pisses me off, wait your turn or go somewhere seniority doesn’t matter!

[flying4dollars]

As a family man myself I resent your characterization of the situation, you know what 50-60 olds have, grandchildren and years of missed holidays to make up for. Besides, even without grandchildren, my “kids” still came home for Christmas morning ever since they left home. That may change where we go visit them for the holidays but it’s absurd that you think someone who reaches an age doesn’t have a reason to have the holidays off, you’re the selfish one in this situation!
Seniority is what it is, you have none and get nothing, then you get some and someone junior to you resents you for using it, great system!
Sounds like you made a great decision to go to WJ, you would have been miserable in a seniority system

The difference is when your kids are age 5-10ish Christmas is important to have on Christmas Day. Once you are older it doesn’t matter if it’s a few days before or after it’s not like a 21 year old kid believes in Santa anymore

So, it’s not important to celebrate Christmas Day with my grandchildren?
I’ll tell you what, you tell my wife with the 30 bins of decorations and two trees, one for upstairs and one for downstairs that the day doesn’t matter! Let me know how that goes, she’s small but pretty darn terrifying!
Btw, that was it in my house until I got enough seniority, Christmas was whatever day around that time I could be home, I don’t feel guilty one bit that I take the time off, as I indicated, it’s an important holiday to my wife, therefore it’s important to me and I did not ever begrudge the senior pilots for taking it when they could.
For Christ sake, the generation of want it now pisses me off, wait your turn or go somewhere seniority doesn’t matter!

Hey nothing wrong with wanting something now. I want a lot of things right now. What matters is whether you're patient enough to wait. I'm old enough to know better so unless it's something I can directly control, I concede to 'it comes when it comes.' Getting pissed off at the mentality of a different generation than yours is absolutely futile. You'll enjoy life more, I promise you that

[cdnavater]

The difference is when your kids are age 5-10ish Christmas is important to have on Christmas Day. Once you are older it doesn’t matter if it’s a few days before or after it’s not like a 21 year old kid believes in Santa anymore

So, it’s not important to celebrate Christmas Day with my grandchildren?
I’ll tell you what, you tell my wife with the 30 bins of decorations and two trees, one for upstairs and one for downstairs that the day doesn’t matter! Let me know how that goes, she’s small but pretty darn terrifying!
Btw, that was it in my house until I got enough seniority, Christmas was whatever day around that time I could be home, I don’t feel guilty one bit that I take the time off, as I indicated, it’s an important holiday to my wife, therefore it’s important to me and I did not ever begrudge the senior pilots for taking it when they could.
For Christ sake, the generation of want it now pisses me off, wait your turn or go somewhere seniority doesn’t matter!

Hey nothing wrong with wanting something now. I want a lot of things right now. What matters is whether you're patient enough to wait. I'm old enough to know better so unless it's something I can directly control, I concede to 'it comes when it comes.' Getting pissed off at the mentality of a different generation than yours is absolutely futile. You'll enjoy life more, I promise you that

You are correct, you can want it now but the problem is, they suggest I don’t take it so they can, that I have a problem with!