A certain Tier 3 Operator

$70 a barrel · Post by **$70 a barrel** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:32 pm

At first I thought I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Then after about a dozen incidents I figured I better put this out to the forum. What is it with CMA not cancelling IFR when its F^%ing VFR and there are other aircraft either on the ground or in the air. Whats with taxing to position with out even the VFR release from center and blocking the bloody runway. Whats with requesting their clearence with out their fucking engines started knowing there is other aircraft running about to ask for clearence. Is it just my unfortunate experience or does airmanship get thrown in the garbage can in their groundschools where they are convinced they are gods gift to aviation. I am so sick and tired of cancelling to accomodate those who seem nothing but ungrateful.

pika · Post by **pika** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:33 pm

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

Speed Indeed · Post by **Speed Indeed** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:34 pm

i gotta agree i have experienced all of those same incidents from them. i know they all arent bad but it does seem to be a recurring trend in my experience.

tincanflyer · Post by **tincanflyer** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:09 am

$70 a barrel wrote:At first I thought I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Then after about a dozen incidents I figured I better put this out to the forum. What is it with CMA not cancelling IFR when its F^%ing VFR and there are other aircraft either on the ground or in the air. Whats with taxing to position with out even the VFR release from center and blocking the bloody runway. Whats with requesting their clearence with out their fucking engines started knowing there is other aircraft running about to ask for clearence. Is it just my unfortunate experience or does airmanship get thrown in the garbage can in their groundschools where they are convinced they are gods gift to aviation. I am so sick and tired of cancelling to accomodate those who seem nothing but ungrateful.

their better then your charter/jetstream/pc-12 flyingf a$$

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:38 am

Amazing, you've named half the things pilots do that piss me off in one short paragraph...

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:08 am

Going into YWL I have seen them call over the VOR while we were coming straight in the other way - I could see them still 3 or 4 back from the VOR once we had joined downwind to accomodate them... Took there f-n time to backtrack and clear too...

HoldMyBeerAndWatchThis · Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:00 am

You know what to do.... Stop cancelling ifr for them. They will learn pretty quick about airmanship.

Hyster · Post by **Hyster** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:03 am

I heard and was witness to the same unprofessionalism from these guys too. They tried to request a clearance off the wrong way runway at XJ. After being told that it will be longer the Capt said to the FSS guy to just do it. An argument ensued between the capt and FSS but realizing the capt was a idiot the FSS let it go. After getting the worlds longest clearance with the most restrictions and a Do Not Depart for 30 minutes the capt decided to have it changed to an even more inappropriate runway. FSS says not a good idea, capt says just do it. Same thing long ass clearance and a Do Not Depart till almost tomorrow. Capt gets pissed, mean while after getting my clearance after his inital call on the proper runway I am by now out of radio range. Missed the ending but these dumasses get whats coming to them when trying to speed things up. I wonder if their opps was aware that this crew could have been at least airborn for 30 minutes if it wasnt for the captains small dick syndrome.

But hes probably at AC now.

Next time these clowns do this just ask them on the radio why they are asking for the clearance without running engines.

prang one · Post by **prang one** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:15 am

I had the same trouble years ago when my path crossed CMAs on a regular basis

Got so feed up with it that I asked a few chaps/girls I knew at CMA what was up with never dropping the IFR when it was CAVOK to the moon and back. Same answer was its in the SOPS not to cancel once cleared for the approach and some other critera which I cant remember.

By all accounts they are following SOPs so not cancelling to try and f@@k them about will not F@@K with them

Keep smiling though you might want to fly for them some day

CMA1 · Post by **CMA1** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:42 am

The only restriction, in our SOPS, for cancelling IFR is that you have to be within 25 miles of the airport. At night it is discouraged but certainly allowed if needed.

Personally, I usually cancel the IFR going into uncontolled airports. I've never heard of crews calling for clearance before both engines have started.
Certainly had other companies do it to me though.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:08 am

Just a reminder, chaps, that choosing the lowest common denominator will only bring the entire system lower. If these guys are consistently behaving as if they are the only ones out there, there really is nothing you can do - you are looking at ulcers and 'road rage' and other unpleasant things happening to you. You could confront the captains on the ramp and explain how they are blisters on the ass of aviation and that by behaving as they do they are making many lives miserable, but I'll bet you a case of Guinness that they won't have a clue what you are talking about.

bronson · Post by **bronson** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:20 am

Had the same probs with a couple of the Air BC drivers back in the day...called the chief pilot and reminded him that we could do the same...end of problem.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:28 am

Forget about talking to the flight crew. guys here tried that and the flight crew just laughed about it.

Phone their CP. give him dates and times.

JigglyBus · Post by **JigglyBus** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:46 am

I hate to be the one to say it, but perhaps these habits start from the top down?

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:05 pm

Jiggly:

You might be right, but it is worth the try. At this airport we just thought it was only one crew and our airport, but it seems it is more widespread.
Perhaps if several people call with specific dates and times, management will take notice.

snag · Post by **snag** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:37 pm

Can't say that I've ever witnessed that behavior. I'm with CMA1 on this one. On the YYC side, we'll cancel through 12,500 if legaly possible, conform to all traffic, and the only time you get clearence prior to engine start is at CYYC itself, that's just the way it works.

Don't confuse a bad pilot with a bad company. By all means, note the date time incident and call the Chief. I would. I just hope this isn't some topic conjured up by rejected interviewees.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:41 pm

Some of you are suggesting calling the CP. Does the CP at CMA accept phone calls? He didn't years ago when I was looking for a job. Even if you drove for xx hours to drop off a resume, he was always busy.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:15 pm

He would if you were calling with a complaint. Just don't lose your focus and ask him for a job!

tincanflyer · Post by **tincanflyer** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:50 pm

does CMA even have a CP right now?

CMA1 · Post by **CMA1** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:32 pm

LC is the interim CP right now. Could be for a while. Just curious what airport you guys seems to be having this problem.

$71 a barrel · Post by **$71 a barrel** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:52 pm

$70 Looks like you signed up and used your first ever post to flame an entire company and run away. You either didn't get the job or are just pissed that AC and WJ keep hiring all the CMA guys and not you. CMA could very well have a few idoits. Doesn't every company? They have over 100 pilots. Don't paint them all with the same brush.

tincanflyer · Post by **tincanflyer** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:59 pm

$71 a barrel wrote:$70 Looks like you signed up and used your first ever post to flame an entire company and run away. You either didn't get the job or are just pissed that AC and WJ keep hiring all the CMA guys and not you. CMA could very well have a few idoits. Doesn't every company? They have over 100 pilots. Don't paint them all with the same brush.

Well put and probably very true.......

LC has a hard time giving his employees the time of day & the truth.....nevermind it some idiot called him to complain about his pilots

McPhoo · Post by **McPhoo** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:57 pm

I wonder if we are seeing the result of an active job market. Newbie gets the "dream job" right out of school or too soon after, gets a few hours and gets the upgrade before his diaper has even gotten wet, it all goes too his head, thinks he is God's gift to aviation but has no idea what he has yet to learn(read: big ego due to Big fish in Little pond syndrome), then the poor judgement and decisions makes it painfully clear how immature 'The Natural' really is and we then have to endure until he gets the call from a major. Finally he is out of our hair and airspace but wait there he is again when we finally make the big time! What a treat he will always be to work with. Unfortunatly there is and have always been people like this. Not many companies are exempt. I'd shy away from flaming CMA. I think it is a few bad apples is all. Just my two bits.

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:05 am

I can't say I've seen this on line at CMA- not cancelling when it's VFR. But whoever said turnover might be the problem? That's probably close to the truth. Lots and lots of new blood, here and everywhere for that matter. Don't blame IFR delays on one particular airline though- blame the system. Busy, busy airports like YXJ that don't have radar or a tower are the problem. Complain to Nav Canada, but in the meantime if it's VFR and your SOPs allow you to fly at 500 AGL and 3 miles vis, why not just go VFR? Remember we're all just pilots doing the same job and trying to do it safely and according to procedures. Cutting somebody off on the ramp, getting clearance when you're not ready just to get in line in front of the next guy, or giving false position reports just to call "#1" is BS. STOP IT (Peace Air this means YOU)

niss · Post by **niss** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:13 am

It doesnt bother anyone else that there was a one post wonder named $70 a barrel flaming a company, and then anther one post wonder named $71 a barrel flaming $70 a barrel for flaming the company?!?

WTF?

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A certain Tier 3 Operator

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