Making 200k+ and going to AC for 55k?

[acornot]

Since AC's massive hiring will probably slow down, and anyone joining AC now is a little late, would it still be a wise move for someone who is 40, making between 200 and 250k+ as a CA in one of the smaller companies, to join AC?

[RippleRock]

I'd wait about four months.

A few things are about to become very clear.

Either this group gets its act together and shows unified decisive action, or we do not, and get completely routed. We have been the "low hanging fruit" for the better part of two decades. The Corp is used to plucking us clean and offering an "Attaboy" in return. They held our feet to the fire with our 2% yearly increase while the executives were offered huge bonuses and raises post Covid, likely in the form of stock options for their "good work and sacrifice". The E-Suite has recovered from the Covid meltdown 100% + and after we took massive concessions (55 hours), right up to and including layoffs, we have been offered ZIP. (Last falls MOA doesn't count as it was very concessionary and potentially disasterous).

The Corp has made literally hundreds of millions off our "give-backs and concessions" over the last two decades. The question remains.....is the Corp going to treat us respectfully now and come up with an "industry standard" -FAIR- WACON package, or are they going to hold gun to our head and refuse. How will we react if they don't intend to respect us like they should?

We need 50% across the board to even get back what inflation has eaten off our plates since 2003. And 50% is NO RAISE....just keeping up with what a dollar could buy 20 years ago. We need 70% in nearly every Capt/FO category to even find ourselves on the low end of our American colleagues WACON scale.

I'm thinking they need an education, but we need to stand shoulder to shoulder to give it.

So I'd wait and see how this pans out. If there's no gold in the pan come December, don't waste your time.

[Jean-Pierre]

Nobody should be applying at AC right now unless it is your first job out of school

[vanislepilot]

Nobody should be applying at AC right now unless it is your first job out of school

[acornot]

I'd wait about four months.

A few things are about to become very clear.

Either this group gets its act together and shows unified decisive action, or we do not, and get completely routed. We have been the "low hanging fruit" for the better part of two decades. The Corp is used to plucking us clean and offering an "Attaboy" in return. They held our feet to the fire with our 2% yearly increase while the executives were offered huge bonuses and raises post Covid, likely in the form of stock options for their "good work and sacrifice". The E-Suite has recovered from the Covid meltdown 100% + and after we took massive concessions (55 hours), right up to and including layoffs, we have been offered ZIP. (Last falls MOA doesn't count as it was very concessionary and potentially disasterous).

The Corp has made literally hundreds of millions off our "give-backs and concessions" over the last two decades. The question remains.....is the Corp going to treat us respectfully now and come up with an "industry standard" -FAIR- WACON package, or are they going to hold gun to our head and refuse. How will we react if they don't intend to respect us like they should?

We need 50% across the board to even get back what inflation has eaten off our plates since 2003. And 50% is NO RAISE....just keeping up with what a dollar could buy 20 years ago. We need 70% in nearly every Capt/FO category to even find ourselves on the low end of our American colleagues WACON scale.

I'm thinking they need an education, but we need to stand shoulder to shoulder to give it.

So I'd wait and see how this pans out. If there's no gold in the pan come December, don't waste your time.

Thanks for your reply, I agree 100%. Now the risk is: wait 4 month and have this much guys join above me and lose seniority, BUT keep current job and good pay/lifestyle etc, OR jump now and lose current job at the risk of being very disappointed comes December

Seniority wise, I feel like it's too late, and I feel like my lifestyle will be deeply impacted. However, who knows how long my current company will be operating for, and in 1 year, or 5 years or 10 years, if it shuts down, I will regret not having joined AC.

Not an easy decision

[M.Caribou]

You are competent, have time and a ATPL if you’re
making that kind of money. Stay where you are and enjoy your life. The seniority boat has sailed by about 3000 30 year olds.

If you’re company goes under, you’ll slide right into 6 figures and a good life elsewhere.

[Inverted2]

If you’re in your 40’s you probably won’t see a wide body captain spot at AC. They hired a ton of youngins’ ahead of you. I’d stay where you are. Plus you would be first out if (when) there’s an economic meltdown or the next scamdemic.

[DanWEC]

I don't work at AC, so I might not have the most reliable perspective, but I looked at it as a move over 40 to be a NB captain or WB FO for the rest of your career unless you want to be bottoms near 60. Good pension though.

[Stu Pidasso]

The Airline would love to have you acornot, we have a serious experience vacuum. However, put me down for don't do it.

The place has, sadly, turned quite toxic and we are in for years of labour stife. Every level of unskilled labour will be looking for double digit raises, even when they are on par with other carriers, even south of the border.

The musical chairs will come to a stop, it always does.

[ZBBYLW]

Toxic leadership since CR retired. They don't value the pilots (or any employee). You'll likely be junior for a while even though pay should improve with this CA coming up.

If you were single or at least married with no kids and young I'd say do it. But if you have kids your kids are only young once.. don't chase a crappy schedule with low pay just to have a maple leaf on the tail.

[acornot]

Thanks everyone! Very good points and I appreciate your replies. It almost doesn't feel like I am on Avcanada, I was expected to be bullied

I will have to think about it a little bit more, even though the more I do the more confused I am haha. Yes I am single, no ex wife, no kids. Easy for me to make any kind of move without serious consequences.

Thanks all

[GeoffPilot]

The Airline would love to have you acornot, we have a serious experience vacuum. However, put me down for don't do it.

The place has, sadly, turned quite toxic and we are in for years of labour stife. Every level of unskilled labour will be looking for double digit raises, even when they are on par with other carriers, even south of the border.

The musical chairs will come to a stop, it always does.

That's after the CEO took a 233% payraise and the executives doubled their compensation

Until this airline recognizes its employees, this place is doomed

[Transition9er2]

Another point to consider is whether or not you already live in a base. Are you in YUL or YYZ already? Not having to commute is an immediate +1

It sounds like there’s some changes to fleet size still being tossed around (WB adds for sure) that could allow for more hiring. A total shot in the dark and completely unknown if true or not… however, as you say, take the spot now and get a seat in hopes hiring continues… or wait 2 to 5 years to see if your company survives or not, only to end up here at that time anyways, but with years of missed seniority opportunity.

I imagine if you were to be hired in the near future, you’d be able to bid NB left seat in just over 2 years from hire date… barring any crazy global downturns.

It’s a tough decision. I don’t envy you… except for the $200K+ salary at the moment, that’s nice!

[flying4dollars]

I left a $200k+ income last year for $58k at AC. I only did it because I'm single, have little to no debt, no kids, no other fiscal or other responsibilities. I live at my base and have a 25 minute commute on a train to the airport. I could manage the financial burden of being a flat payer. I'm also here hedging my bets that I won't see all 4 years of it as either flat pay will be lifted with the new CA and/or I'll be in the left seat imminently, all while building that ever important seniority and pension. So yeah, for a year or 2 I can stomach the pay. I also padded the bank account in overtime pay before coming here which supplemented my flat pay as well I rent my condo out for a fair bit more than it costs me to own and my current place of residence rent is low, so there's some income from that too. I recognize that this is probably a very fortuitous scenario and a majority of people may not share the same luck. If you are however in my position, absolutely go for it!

Now, if you're not, I would suggest you keep your job for the moment, if you're happy there. BUT, be sure your job is secure as can be. If the music stops in a few years, will your employer survive? Will you manage for potentially several months or longer to be unemployed? Do you have a sound career/financial back up plan in the event another covid like event happens? In a few years, I will have so many pilots below me that I'll likely never see a layoff. That security alone was worth the jump and the short term financial burden. The other scenario is a potential strike. I have a decent savings account and a generous line of credit which I have no problem using if it means achieve the gains the group is looking for. It will likely be paid off very quickly if even needed. Now, if you have a family that relies on YOUR income, I'd be much more hesitant to make the jump. In fact, I'd hardly recommend it for the time being and maybe suggest waiting until the CA is in place. Yes, you'll miss out on the seniority but I've seen what financial stress can do to people/families/couples. The extra seniority numbers in my opinion isn't worth that type of risk/sacrifice.

Good luck with your decision!

[JHR]

As long as pilots are willing to do this ^ AC will never pay you guys more money

[dontcallmeshirley]

I left a $200k+ income last year for $58k at AC. I only did it because I'm single, have little to no debt, no kids, no other fiscal or other responsibilities. I live at my base and have a 25 minute commute on a train to the airport. I could manage the financial burden of being a flat payer. I'm also here hedging my bets that I won't see all 4 years of it as either flat pay will be lifted with the new CA and/or I'll be in the left seat imminently, all while building that ever important seniority and pension. So yeah, for a year or 2 I can stomach the pay. I also padded the bank account in overtime pay before coming here which supplemented my flat pay as well I rent my condo out for a fair bit more than it costs me to own and my current place of residence rent is low, so there's some income from that too. I recognize that this is probably a very fortuitous scenario and a majority of people may not share the same luck. If you are however in my position, absolutely go for it!

Now, if you're not, I would suggest you keep your job for the moment, if you're happy there. BUT, be sure your job is secure as can be. If the music stops in a few years, will your employer survive? Will you manage for potentially several months or longer to be unemployed? Do you have a sound career/financial back up plan in the event another covid like event happens? In a few years, I will have so many pilots below me that I'll likely never see a layoff. That security alone was worth the jump and the short term financial burden. The other scenario is a potential strike. I have a decent savings account and a generous line of credit which I have no problem using if it means achieve the gains the group is looking for. It will likely be paid off very quickly if even needed. Now, if you have a family that relies on YOUR income, I'd be much more hesitant to make the jump. In fact, I'd hardly recommend it for the time being and maybe suggest waiting until the CA is in place. Yes, you'll miss out on the seniority but I've seen what financial stress can do to people/families/couples. The extra seniority numbers in my opinion isn't worth that type of risk/sacrifice.

Good luck with your decision!

I left my $250,000 per year job at a start up to stock shelves for $15 an hour at Wal Mart because Wal Mart is going to be here in 15 years and I might make $100,000 as a regional assistant to the assistant.

[YC87DRVR]

I left a $200k+ income last year for $58k at AC. I only did it because I'm single, have little to no debt, no kids, no other fiscal or other responsibilities. I live at my base and have a 25 minute commute on a train to the airport. I could manage the financial burden of being a flat payer. I'm also here hedging my bets that I won't see all 4 years of it as either flat pay will be lifted with the new CA and/or I'll be in the left seat imminently, all while building that ever important seniority and pension. So yeah, for a year or 2 I can stomach the pay. I also padded the bank account in overtime pay before coming here which supplemented my flat pay as well I rent my condo out for a fair bit more than it costs me to own and my current place of residence rent is low, so there's some income from that too. I recognize that this is probably a very fortuitous scenario and a majority of people may not share the same luck. If you are however in my position, absolutely go for it!

Now, if you're not, I would suggest you keep your job for the moment, if you're happy there. BUT, be sure your job is secure as can be. If the music stops in a few years, will your employer survive? Will you manage for potentially several months or longer to be unemployed? Do you have a sound career/financial back up plan in the event another covid like event happens? In a few years, I will have so many pilots below me that I'll likely never see a layoff. That security alone was worth the jump and the short term financial burden. The other scenario is a potential strike. I have a decent savings account and a generous line of credit which I have no problem using if it means achieve the gains the group is looking for. It will likely be paid off very quickly if even needed. Now, if you have a family that relies on YOUR income, I'd be much more hesitant to make the jump. In fact, I'd hardly recommend it for the time being and maybe suggest waiting until the CA is in place. Yes, you'll miss out on the seniority but I've seen what financial stress can do to people/families/couples. The extra seniority numbers in my opinion isn't worth that type of risk/sacrifice.

Good luck with your decision!

I left my $250,000 per year job at a start up to stock shelves for $15 an hour at Wal Mart because Wal Mart is going to be here in 15 years and I might make $100,000 as a regional assistant to the assistant.

HA! Well played.

[FelixGustof]

So AC pilots are OK with taking an 80% paycut for seniority at the lowest paid legacy carrier in the world?

I guess there is no aptitude test for AC? Just a Kool-aid drink test?

[flying4dollars]

I think a few of you missed my point, but the walmart joke was pretty funny

[Eric Janson]

Thanks for your reply, I agree 100%. Now the risk is: wait 4 month and have this much guys join above me and lose seniority, BUT keep current job and good pay/lifestyle etc, OR jump now and lose current job at the risk of being very disappointed comes December

Seniority wise, I feel like it's too late, and I feel like my lifestyle will be deeply impacted. However, who knows how long my current company will be operating for, and in 1 year, or 5 years or 10 years, if it shuts down, I will regret not having joined AC.

Not an easy decision

Disclaimer:- Don't work at Air Canada.

There are no guarantees in Aviation - makes no difference who you work for. Job security is a myth. JMHO.

There is no Airline "too big to fail" - even Air Canada was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2008. I was working with a couple of retired Air Canada Pilots at the time and they were facing the loss of their entire pension.

Another colleague lost his entire pension right as he was retiring - he was at USAir.

The future is impossible to predict - nobody would have predicted COVID. I know people at "career Airlines" that sat at home for 18 months and had to dig into their retirement savings to survive.

As for me - I am working on what amounts to a 30 day renewable contract. Been through 2 Airline bankruptcies and plenty of unpleasantness so far. I've learned not to worry about things I have no control over.

I have always had a job to go to when I needed it.

The only advice I can give you is to make the decision that is right for you.

[Dias]

I know people at "career Airlines" that sat at home for 18 months and had to dig into their retirement savings to survive.

And I know of thousands that stayed on payroll. With all due respect there is a huge difference between job security of a ex-pat on a 30 day revolving contract and someone flying for their flag carrier.

[RippleRock]

Thanks for your reply, I agree 100%. Now the risk is: wait 4 month and have this much guys join above me and lose seniority, BUT keep current job and good pay/lifestyle etc, OR jump now and lose current job at the risk of being very disappointed comes December

Seniority wise, I feel like it's too late, and I feel like my lifestyle will be deeply impacted. However, who knows how long my current company will be operating for, and in 1 year, or 5 years or 10 years, if it shuts down, I will regret not having joined AC.

Not an easy decision

Disclaimer:- Don't work at Air Canada.

There are no guarantees in Aviation - makes no difference who you work for. Job security is a myth. JMHO.

There is no Airline "too big to fail" - even Air Canada was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2008. I was working with a couple of retired Air Canada Pilots at the time and they were facing the loss of their entire pension.

Another colleague lost his entire pension right as he was retiring - he was at USAir.

The future is impossible to predict - nobody would have predicted COVID. I know people at "career Airlines" that sat at home for 18 months and had to dig into their retirement savings to survive.

As for me - I am working on what amounts to a 30 day renewable contract. Been through 2 Airline bankruptcies and plenty of unpleasantness so far. I've learned not to worry about things I have no control over.

I have always had a job to go to when I needed it.

The only advice I can give you is to make the decision that is right for you.

We were NOT facing the loss of our entire pension. US pension security is NOTHING like it is here in Canada,. Not even close.

AC wasn't that close to bankruptcy either. It was CR's play as a financial trickster. Company spin at it's finest. Those pilots (incuding me) bought the "burning platform" and lost pension indexing and were forced into a perpetual pension top-up" payment of 1.5%, even though the thing was overfunded. The joke was on us, and it still is. We were fooled.

We still pay 1.5% into an overflowing pot of billions while our Company is on an unending pension funding holiday.

Look it up prior to commenting, because nearly everything you said was wrong.

[Vanguard]

I know so many pilots here that left high paying jobs to start at Y1 at Air Canada.

It is sad that they had to do this and embarrassment for our pilot group in general which we will address this new contract, however as perspective in our last company bid...the most junior A220 CA was hired November 2022.

Upgrades are going to become quicker and quicker and we haven't even received the airplanes yet. 2025 is when deliveries begin for A321neo and more A220. I am almost sure we can also expect another aircraft order amidst our negotiations. There are already reports of 20 more WB and I expect there will be some narrowbody adjustments as well.

Air Canada isn't going anywhere, people who talk about bankruptcies here seem to have no idea about it. Just look at the financial reports for Air Canada and tell me how its plausible. We survived the pandemic just fine as well and kept a lot of cash on the book.

Retirements are around 100-150/yr and actually go up in 2029-2031. It takes about 15yrs right now to be a WB CA but you will be junior for a while. Pilot numbers right now are at around 5200 and AC has said they need this up around 6500 by 2026. You do the math. Lots of guys think they know everything here but are jaded by their own career choices. Regardless for all the hate out there, its been a good gig for many of us and you'll probably hear less complaining here overall than other carriers.

This is not to say we don't have issues but this year has brought some major changes to our group and we look forward to getting the world class contract we deserve.

[CaptDukeNukem]

It is sad that they had to do this and embarrassment for our pilot group in general which we will address this new contract, however as perspective in our last company bid...the most junior A220 CA was hired November 2023.

Nov 2023? I love futurama.

What is the actual date?

[Me262]

Nobody should be applying at AC right now unless it is your first job out of school

I got rejected with 750hrs for FO, but you go for it. Meanwhile I'm eyeing Jazz and Encore