Air Transat Ascension Academy pathway program

[LegoMan]

Air Transat and CAE partnering to deliver a flair-like program to get pilots into the cockpit fast. I was unaware that they had a recruiting problem. I always though there were plenty of willing applicants.

[TFTMB heavy]

Air Transat and CAE partnering to deliver a flair-like program to get pilots into the cockpit fast. I was unaware that they had a recruiting problem. I always though there were plenty of willing applicants.

I don't think you can compare the CAE training academy in Phoenix with Flair's program. No dig on who FLAIR is using but the CAE centre is a well established cadet program.

In regards to recruitment, it's been a challenge and they are looking for different avenues to increase hiring. There a lot to be done before these cadets come onto property and are integrated on the line. We have heard different ideas being floated around but no official plan presented to the pilot group yet.

[LegoMan]

I guess I’m struggling to understand how running a very expensive program that a few privileged people will be able to afford is going to somehow help AT when there are hundreds if not thousands of able and willing pilots that already have licenses and operational experience. Perhaps I’m missing something.

[TFTMB heavy]

I guess I’m struggling to understand how running a very expensive program that a few privileged people will be able to afford is going to somehow help AT when there are hundreds if not thousands of able and willing pilots that already have licenses and operational experience. Perhaps I’m missing something.

They would not be running the program and neither would other airlines if it wasn't necessary. Projected travel demand vs availability of pilots says the normal path will not be enough.

[LegoMan]

But that would mean 90% of applicants would be offered a job that apply regardless of experience since they are willing to recruit low times out of flight school. And we know that is false. I know of 3 people personally, with 1300 to north of 3000, all with turbine and some with turbine PIC time that have applied and didn’t even get an interview. So clearly there is no shortage if AT can still afford to be that picky.

[TFTMB heavy]

But that would mean 90% of applicants would be offered a job that apply regardless of experience since they are willing to recruit low times out of flight school. And we know that is false. I know of 3 people personally, with 1300 to north of 3000, all with turbine and some with turbine PIC time that have applied and didn’t even get an interview. So clearly there is no shortage if AT can still afford to be that picky.

Cadet candidates are screened and tested before being offered the program. TS is choosing to widen its recruitment process, it's up to them. They won't be on property before 2025. As far as hiring low time out of school we are not set up for it. It's becoming a stretch with pilot's in the 2000 hour range. Quite a bit more work vs flying with a newly hired 4000 hour pilot with command time, in general.

Not everyone that applies for a job gets an interview or the job even when they meet the requirements. I do not know why the people you know didn't get a call. TS won't just put a body in the seat because they meet the requirements. All I can say it keep applying.

[fish4life]

But that would mean 90% of applicants would be offered a job that apply regardless of experience since they are willing to recruit low times out of flight school. And we know that is false. I know of 3 people personally, with 1300 to north of 3000, all with turbine and some with turbine PIC time that have applied and didn’t even get an interview. So clearly there is no shortage if AT can still afford to be that picky.

I’ve heard from people that do interviews at a few airlines that some pilots are coming into the interview with a “they need me more than I need them” attitude.

I’m not saying that’s the case with the people you know but an entitled attitude will come through in an interview and it’s better to not fill the seat than have that.

On the flip side nobody wants someone brown nosing like crazy but you should show interest and have a good idea of the type of flying and at least planes the airline flies. Believe it or not I’ve heard of people applying to a company and not even knowing what the fleet type is.

[LegoMan]

But that would mean 90% of applicants would be offered a job that apply regardless of experience since they are willing to recruit low times out of flight school. And we know that is false. I know of 3 people personally, with 1300 to north of 3000, all with turbine and some with turbine PIC time that have applied and didn’t even get an interview. So clearly there is no shortage if AT can still afford to be that picky.

I’ve heard from people that do interviews at a few airlines that some pilots are coming into the interview with a “they need me more than I need them” attitude.

I’m not saying that’s the case with the people you know but an entitled attitude will come through in an interview and it’s better to not fill the seat than have that.

On the flip side nobody wants someone brown nosing like crazy but you should show interest and have a good idea of the type of flying and at least planes the airline flies. Believe it or not I’ve heard of people applying to a company and not even knowing what the fleet type is.

These pilots I know are not entitled and very professional. But they also are not bilingual which I think is maybe why they were overlooked and they were applying around the same time the YVR base was shutting down. Who knows, reality is why take a chance on a 250 hour wonder flying across the ocean when there are plenty of capable pilots with commercial experience available.

If you think of how many people at the current time are going to spend over $140k on flight training how many will get weeded out through selection and training, I find it hard that AT will solve their shortage worries through this program. They would be better fit doing a little extra work in preparing the guys/gals at 500-1000 hours now and mentouring them until they have the necessary hours.

[TFTMB heavy]

But that would mean 90% of applicants would be offered a job that apply regardless of experience since they are willing to recruit low times out of flight school. And we know that is false. I know of 3 people personally, with 1300 to north of 3000, all with turbine and some with turbine PIC time that have applied and didn’t even get an interview. So clearly there is no shortage if AT can still afford to be that picky.

I’ve heard from people that do interviews at a few airlines that some pilots are coming into the interview with a “they need me more than I need them” attitude.

I’m not saying that’s the case with the people you know but an entitled attitude will come through in an interview and it’s better to not fill the seat than have that.

On the flip side nobody wants someone brown nosing like crazy but you should show interest and have a good idea of the type of flying and at least planes the airline flies. Believe it or not I’ve heard of people applying to a company and not even knowing what the fleet type is.

These pilots I know are not entitled and very professional. But they also are not bilingual which I think is maybe why they were overlooked and they were applying around the same time the YVR base was shutting down. Who knows, reality is why take a chance on a 250 hour wonder flying across the ocean when there are plenty of capable pilots with commercial experience available.

If you think of how many people at the current time are going to spend over $140k on flight training how many will get weeded out through selection and training, I find it hard that AT will solve their shortage worries through this program. They would be better fit doing a little extra work in preparing the guys/gals at 500-1000 hours now and mentouring them until they have the necessary hours.

Let me try to explain it better, the cadets will not solve the problem all together. It’s only a portion of it. At 15 cadets every 18 months or so it’s not enough to fill the gap. They’re looking at everyone from cadets and college graduates from aviation programs to experienced pilots. The minimums have been dropped to 1500 and it will drop more as the training is adapted to those types of candidates.

Hope that's clearer?

[DanWEC]

It really is a drop in the bucket right now, compared to the need to hire 100-150 pilots every year. But when hiring inevitably slows down it might be a great way to get in. Remember what it was like 20 year ago? No job ads anywhere.

On the flip side, it still doesn't necessarily address the REAL problem of attraction and retention, just avoids it more.

On a side note, how do these cadet programs address upgrades? At our 400 hrs a year it could take 10 years to be upgradable.

[330heavy]

A lot of us here didn’t get interviewed the first time we applied, and we also have a number who aren’t bilingual. So keep applying and show the interest. Also an internal reference helps better.

[LegoMan]

Good point! My first flying job was seasonal. The second season, after I got hired they told me they could have used someone like me the year before. Apparently they never saw my resume.

The three I mentioned did get hired at other 705. Certainly when I meet the requirements I will be applying. Does Air Transat let you open a profile even if you dont meet the minimums like Flair and Porter and a few other regionals do?

[TFTMB heavy]

It really is a drop in the bucket right now, compared to the need to hire 100-150 pilots every year. But when hiring inevitably slows down it might be a great way to get in. Remember what it was like 20 year ago? No job ads anywhere.

On the flip side, it still doesn't necessarily address the REAL problem of attraction and retention, just avoids it more.

On a side note, how do these cadet programs address upgrades? At our 400 hrs a year it could take 10 years to be upgradable.

They have to keep diversifying the hiring pool. They will have to find a way to keep attracting and retaining higher time pilots. At some point when growth target is reached you're mostly dealing with retirements, I would expect we have enough experience in house by then.

[fortheloveofflying]

What is the current hiring situation at Transat? Are they running a lot of new hire classes? Will they consider 1100tt with 800 multi turbine/jet hrs with A’s written and all required PIC or are they sticking to 1500 hrs only at this time?

[TFTMB heavy]

What is the current hiring situation at Transat? Are they running a lot of new hire classes? Will they consider 1100tt with 800 multi turbine/jet hrs with A’s written and all required PIC or are they sticking to 1500 hrs only at this time?

Hiring 10 per month. As for you qualifications I don't know if they would call you right away since the minimums just dropped to 1500. But if I was you I would apply and keep updating them as my hours get closer to 1500.

[fortheloveofflying]

What is the current hiring situation at Transat? Are they running a lot of new hire classes? Will they consider 1100tt with 800 multi turbine/jet hrs with A’s written and all required PIC or are they sticking to 1500 hrs only at this time?

Hiring 10 per month. As for you qualifications I don't know if they would call you right away since the minimums just dropped to 1500. But if I was you I would apply and keep updating them as my hours get closer to 1500.

Thanks for the advice

[Cavalier44]

Like the Flair pilot program and the Jazz Approach program, I just don't understand who the target market for this type of cadet program is supposed to be. How many 17/18-year-olds have access to $160,000 to pay for such a program in today's economy? Even with assistance from the bank of Mom and Dad, that's an awful lot of money. Are they banking on international students filling out the majority of the positions?

What's the first-year FO pay at Air Transat - $64k/year? How long will it take you to make a return on your investment?

[Inverted2]

There’s still lots of rich kids with rich parents out there. Still a lousy return on investment if you ask me.

[throwawaycorporate]

Like the Flair pilot program and the Jazz Approach program, I just don't understand who the target market for this type of cadet program is supposed to be. How many 17/18-year-olds have access to $160,000 to pay for such a program in today's economy? Even with assistance from the bank of Mom and Dad, that's an awful lot of money. Are they banking on international students filling out the majority of the positions?

What's the first-year FO pay at Air Transat - $64k/year? How long will it take you to make a return on your investment?

If you invest $160K at 18 and let it compile for 47 years at 8% (under historical average) it will be worth over $5M for retirement.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

If you invest $160K at 18 and let it compile for 47 years at 8% (under historical average) it will be worth over $5M for retirement.

That's assuming someone has $160,000 at 18 years old to invest for retirement, but you forgot what they'd do for income in the mean time. Still going to need to pony up more money for a higher education like college or university to land a well-paying job.

You can't feed and house yourself for 47 years on money invested for retirement.

[throwawaycorporate]

If you invest $160K at 18 and let it compile for 47 years at 8% (under historical average) it will be worth over $5M for retirement.

That's assuming someone has $160,000 at 18 years old to invest for retirement, but you forgot what they'd do for income in the mean time. Still going to need to pony up more money for a higher education like college or university to land a well-paying job.

You can't feed and hose yourself for 47 years on money invested for retirement.

There are lots of options for sure.

ATC - paid training, over 100K to start as an example staying within the industry.
There's also sales, police/firefighter, trades, construction, etc

Personally if I had 160K at 18 I would be a ski instructor or dive instructor

[Heavy Rayn]

It really is a drop in the bucket right now, compared to the need to hire 100-150 pilots every year. But when hiring inevitably slows down it might be a great way to get in. Remember what it was like 20 year ago? No job ads anywhere.

On the flip side, it still doesn't necessarily address the REAL problem of attraction and retention, just avoids it more.

On a side note, how do these cadet programs address upgrades? At our 400 hrs a year it could take 10 years to be upgradable.

They have to keep diversifying the hiring pool. They will have to find a way to keep attracting and retaining higher time pilots. At some point when growth target is reached you're mostly dealing with retirements, I would expect we have enough experience in house by then.

Is there a list of requirements one must have before upgrading or bidding a command position at Transat? Or is it strictly seniority based? 400 hrs a year isn’t much at all, sounds nice haha

[TFTMB heavy]

It really is a drop in the bucket right now, compared to the need to hire 100-150 pilots every year. But when hiring inevitably slows down it might be a great way to get in. Remember what it was like 20 year ago? No job ads anywhere.

On the flip side, it still doesn't necessarily address the REAL problem of attraction and retention, just avoids it more.

On a side note, how do these cadet programs address upgrades? At our 400 hrs a year it could take 10 years to be upgradable.

They have to keep diversifying the hiring pool. They will have to find a way to keep attracting and retaining higher time pilots. At some point when growth target is reached you're mostly dealing with retirements, I would expect we have enough experience in house by then.

Is there a list of requirements one must have before upgrading or bidding a command position at Transat? Or is it strictly seniority based? 400 hrs a year isn’t much at all, sounds nice haha

It's by seniority for candidates with the upgrade minimums, not sure what it is anymore but was 4000 at some point, and with a positive upgrade evaluation. The evaluation is a review of your training and employee file. That will either trigger a yes, no or maybe. If it's maybe you have to either do a line check or they'll monitor your next sim training. It can even be both in certain circumstances.

400 hours per year is low, my average is more in the 600-700.

[Heavy Rayn]

[/b]

They have to keep diversifying the hiring pool. They will have to find a way to keep attracting and retaining higher time pilots. At some point when growth target is reached you're mostly dealing with retirements, I would expect we have enough experience in house by then.

Is there a list of requirements one must have before upgrading or bidding a command position at Transat? Or is it strictly seniority based? 400 hrs a year isn’t much at all, sounds nice haha

It's by seniority for candidates with the upgrade minimums, not sure what it is anymore but was 4000 at some point, and with a positive upgrade evaluation. The evaluation is a review of your training and employee file. That will either trigger a yes, no or maybe. If it's maybe you have to either do a line check or they'll monitor your next sim training. It can even be both in certain circumstances.

400 hours per year is low, my average is more in the 600-700.

Thank you for the info, I appreciate it.

[Just another canuck]

[/b]

They have to keep diversifying the hiring pool. They will have to find a way to keep attracting and retaining higher time pilots. At some point when growth target is reached you're mostly dealing with retirements, I would expect we have enough experience in house by then.

Is there a list of requirements one must have before upgrading or bidding a command position at Transat? Or is it strictly seniority based? 400 hrs a year isn’t much at all, sounds nice haha

It's by seniority for candidates with the upgrade minimums, not sure what it is anymore but was 4000 at some point, and with a positive upgrade evaluation. The evaluation is a review of your training and employee file. That will either trigger a yes, no or maybe. If it's maybe you have to either do a line check or they'll monitor your next sim training. It can even be both in certain circumstances.

400 hours per year is low, my average is more in the 600-700.

4000 hours? 7000 hours in the OM. Could go down to 5000 with manager approval. That’s what it was a few years ago anyway. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s changed since though.