Quick question on how to snag
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Quick question on how to snag
I posted a few days ago about my partial engine failure. It's been 5 days since the incident and I've been trying to snag it in the journey log. This entire time I've been under pressure to not log anything, from management and maintenance and CFI. Maintenance had also been acting agressive towards me about this issue.
The biggest problem right now is that my instructor flew that plane back, after repair was done on it by the school's maintenance employee who was not an AME, without snags or any paperwork.
And the school's argument is if I write anything my instructor will lose his license because he flew illegally, I will also be in legal trouble because I didn't snag it at first. At this point I understand that my instructor's decision to fly the plane back is not my problem.
Later today I'm going to write the engine problem I encountered in the journey log. I need help on how to write it, especially since there's a flight logged right under my flight which I encountered engine issue (aka my instructor flew that plane back afterwards). Nobody at school wanted to answer my question on how to write the snag.
The biggest problem right now is that my instructor flew that plane back, after repair was done on it by the school's maintenance employee who was not an AME, without snags or any paperwork.
And the school's argument is if I write anything my instructor will lose his license because he flew illegally, I will also be in legal trouble because I didn't snag it at first. At this point I understand that my instructor's decision to fly the plane back is not my problem.
Later today I'm going to write the engine problem I encountered in the journey log. I need help on how to write it, especially since there's a flight logged right under my flight which I encountered engine issue (aka my instructor flew that plane back afterwards). Nobody at school wanted to answer my question on how to write the snag.
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Blub,
This is one of those situations which is non ideal, and can only get worse the more you probe at it. You are right to want to document a snag. Regardless of your writing it down, you did take appropriate action in landing safely, and informing the owner/operator of the plane. Evidence of that is that they came to rectify the problem, and return the plane. The exact nature of the snag is unknown to you. Some snags are undeniable, and obvious: "Dent in wing". "Engine ran rough" is less clear, thus your obligation to diagnose is reduced, as long as you notify, which you did.
If I were in your situation, I would do the following: As to discuss the whole situation in person with your instructor, the instructor who flew the plane back, and whomever it was who "checked" the plane. State that you feel an obligation to report the snag, which is usually done in writing. Ask; does everyone agree that you reported the snag, such that the owner/operator of the plane could investigate, and rectify as necessary? They will all probably agree yes. Then, confirm for your future wisdom, that this would normally be done by your writing a snag in the journey log, they will probably say yes. Ask if it is acceptable to them this time, considering how things worked out, that your verbal only notification was adequate - they will probably say yes. Then, leave the whole situation at that - don't insist to write a snag. Transport Canada is not going to bother you about this, as long as they know that you reported the snag, which you did.
Digging your heels in here to make an imperfect situation more perfect is just going to annoy people, and attract attention to a few things which were not done well by others involved. You've made your point, you're not wrong, but don't try to be more right either...
That's what I'd do - and have done. Aviation is not perfect, even TC knows that....
This is one of those situations which is non ideal, and can only get worse the more you probe at it. You are right to want to document a snag. Regardless of your writing it down, you did take appropriate action in landing safely, and informing the owner/operator of the plane. Evidence of that is that they came to rectify the problem, and return the plane. The exact nature of the snag is unknown to you. Some snags are undeniable, and obvious: "Dent in wing". "Engine ran rough" is less clear, thus your obligation to diagnose is reduced, as long as you notify, which you did.
If I were in your situation, I would do the following: As to discuss the whole situation in person with your instructor, the instructor who flew the plane back, and whomever it was who "checked" the plane. State that you feel an obligation to report the snag, which is usually done in writing. Ask; does everyone agree that you reported the snag, such that the owner/operator of the plane could investigate, and rectify as necessary? They will all probably agree yes. Then, confirm for your future wisdom, that this would normally be done by your writing a snag in the journey log, they will probably say yes. Ask if it is acceptable to them this time, considering how things worked out, that your verbal only notification was adequate - they will probably say yes. Then, leave the whole situation at that - don't insist to write a snag. Transport Canada is not going to bother you about this, as long as they know that you reported the snag, which you did.
Digging your heels in here to make an imperfect situation more perfect is just going to annoy people, and attract attention to a few things which were not done well by others involved. You've made your point, you're not wrong, but don't try to be more right either...
That's what I'd do - and have done. Aviation is not perfect, even TC knows that....
Re: Quick question on how to snag
You can't snag something after the fact.
In fact - your only going to get yourself in trouble. The plane was looked at and has been flying since - let it go and learn for next time.
In fact - your only going to get yourself in trouble. The plane was looked at and has been flying since - let it go and learn for next time.
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Most logbooks have quite some empty room after every entry. An elegant solution might be to write something like 'Engine performed less than suspected' on the line after your flight.
Then the mechanic could write something like 'Engine tested serviceable' on the next line. The instructor could then possibly claim he wrote his flight on the wrong line, or erase it and write it a few lines further down.
Not perfect, but could satisfy everyone involved. And it closely resembles what happened.
Alternatively, you can snag the plane where it is right now, and then the AME can just sign it off as no fault found. Then everybody is in the clear. The school should not have any objections to that.
Then the mechanic could write something like 'Engine tested serviceable' on the next line. The instructor could then possibly claim he wrote his flight on the wrong line, or erase it and write it a few lines further down.
Not perfect, but could satisfy everyone involved. And it closely resembles what happened.
Alternatively, you can snag the plane where it is right now, and then the AME can just sign it off as no fault found. Then everybody is in the clear. The school should not have any objections to that.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Well..... If you have not just completed a flight in the plane, snagging it where it sits will probably incur considerable objection, with no benefit. Someone could ask how you detected an engine snag without flying it, and the answer would be awkward.Alternatively, you can snag the plane where it is right now, and then the AME can just sign it off as no fault found.
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Perhaps. He was on board the airplane with an instructor. It's not weird that the instructor would let him snag the plane as practice. Or the instructor can take some responsibility and snag the plane as PIC after the last flight. Protect his student, and own up to the slightly shady practice (assuming everything happened as reported).PilotDAR wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:26 pmWell..... If you have not just completed a flight in the plane, snagging it where it sits will probably incur considerable objection, with no benefit. Someone could ask how you detected an engine snag without flying it, and the answer would be awkward.Alternatively, you can snag the plane where it is right now, and then the AME can just sign it off as no fault found.
This is of course assuming everyone plays nice and agrees to solving the issue this way.
If no cooperation is possible, and the OP is worried about the airplane's safety, he can write 'PARTIAL LOSS OF ENGINE POWER DURING FLIGHT FROM CYAA TO CYBB ON YYYY/MM/DD. SNAG REPORTED BY PHONE UPON LANDING.', let the school deal with the fall out and likely look for a new flying school.
I think it's in everyone's interest to work together to resolve this. I don't think it's unreasonable for the OP to demand something ends up in the book, one way or the other. If the school keeps fighting it, then they deserve all the trouble they'll get.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Don't go looking for trouble. The airplane was looked at and has flown since your issue.
I would advise you NOT to put an entry in the log book at this time as doing so will just create more problems.
However, in the future you now know that it should be recorded in the log following the flight.
605.94 (1) The particulars set out in column I of an item in Schedule I to this Division shall be recorded in the journey log at the time set out in column II of the item and by the person responsible for making entries set out in column III of that item.
Reference Schedule 1 row 9 below CAR 605.94.
I would advise you NOT to put an entry in the log book at this time as doing so will just create more problems.
However, in the future you now know that it should be recorded in the log following the flight.
605.94 (1) The particulars set out in column I of an item in Schedule I to this Division shall be recorded in the journey log at the time set out in column II of the item and by the person responsible for making entries set out in column III of that item.
Reference Schedule 1 row 9 below CAR 605.94.
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Next time, follow up with a text or email outlining the snag, and that you discussed with the cfi/mx/owner. Just for clarities sake, then wear your helmet.
My advice look for another school
My advice look for another school
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Take this as a learning experience, and move on to another FTU.
Then, at your new school, if you encounter a situation in which a defect is noted (or just as a hypothetical situation) - ask your instructor or the CFI, how to properly go about entering said defect in to the journey log.
Also, more often than not, FTUs don't particularly like student pilots entering defects into the journey log without, (at the very least) some sort of conversation about the "defect" or some supervision to ensure it is entered clearly and concisely.
Then, at your new school, if you encounter a situation in which a defect is noted (or just as a hypothetical situation) - ask your instructor or the CFI, how to properly go about entering said defect in to the journey log.
Also, more often than not, FTUs don't particularly like student pilots entering defects into the journey log without, (at the very least) some sort of conversation about the "defect" or some supervision to ensure it is entered clearly and concisely.
Re: Quick question on how to snag
This whole discussion reminds me of when I did my initial training. At the flight school, students did not enter snags. Only instructors ever made logbook entries.
At my first 703 job, inevitably the pilots screwed up the logbooks. Which lead to the DOM losing his mind, "don't they teach pilots how to make logbook entries?!?"
Glad to see things haven't changed.
At my first 703 job, inevitably the pilots screwed up the logbooks. Which lead to the DOM losing his mind, "don't they teach pilots how to make logbook entries?!?"
Glad to see things haven't changed.
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Years ago, I did an examination flight with an examiner in the 150 I'd owned for more than 20 years at the time (and was the only pilot during that period). As he examined me on paperwork, he picked out the journey log for the [my] plane (I'd started a new one when I bought it). He leafed through it, paused and asked: "Do you mean to tell me that since 1987, there has never been a snag on this airplane?". "Nope" I answered... He side eyed me, and the examination continued. I passed anyway....
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Re: Quick question on how to snag
Since you did not answer my question on the last thread I will ask here as well. When you lost power did you try applying carb heat?
Re: Quick question on how to snag
That is in a post above from yesterday … so this happened on Oct 6 where more than a few places in Canada were near bullseye on the carb ice chart. The random enroute carb ice clearing might be easier to miss or delay, a mystery to explore further … and how a snag execution applies in that type of failure.
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Re: Quick question on how to snag
A « snag exclusion » ?pdw wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:01 amThat is in a post above from yesterday … so this happened on Oct 6 where more than a few places in Canada were near bullseye on the carb ice chart. The random enroute carb ice clearing might be easier to miss or delay, a mystery to explore further … and how a snag execution applies in that type of failure.
What the hell is that?
Respectfully you either snag it or you don’t. Winds, temperatures etc… don’t matter.
She’s broke and you have the defect rectified/deferred. The end.
Love your fascination with weather PDW but I suspect your barking up the wrong tree…
TPC
Re: Quick question on how to snag
I get it, the powerloss could still be one of a number of causes, but the issue here became not the troubleshooting so much as how to perform (execute) the snag correctly.
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Re: Quick question on how to snag
That post by “Big Pistons Forever” is perfect for the training forum. Gives great insight to the importance understanding snag etiquette.
(By now it should be clear for this thread ‘snag question’ how a snag should have read in your experience with the powerloss you have described.)
“repair was done” ? but also says on the other thread that nothing found .. sooo what do you think or know it was? Is it something that will help others not to have the same accident?
(By now it should be clear for this thread ‘snag question’ how a snag should have read in your experience with the powerloss you have described.)
Re: Quick question on how to snag
I thought dealing with a rough running carbureted engine was normal ops lol. Usually either carb icing or incorrect mixture/plug fouling.
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Re: Quick question on how to snag
The importance of leaning out to prevent fouling /blowback and how to properly lean (without getting into the realm of ROP/LOP cruise ops) would make for an excellent training guide/different thread. BPF, what do you think?
TPC
Re: Quick question on how to snag
I like how you guys are worried Transport Canada are going to come down hard on the school if there's a logbook issue. I worked for a 703 that didn't have a single pilot written snag in any logbook ever. Stacks of Journey Logs to the ceiling and not one snag. Transport never said shit.
Re: Quick question on how to snag
Pure madness! So everytime I pull the Carb Heat on and I have a momentary power loss its a snag?
This is 100% a newbie Millenial who needs to be told he is wrong.
This is 100% a newbie Millenial who needs to be told he is wrong.
Re: Quick question on how to snag
As of late (last few years) noticed there had been a number of fatalities from this, with some that are still not sure exactly. There have also been those not broadcasted where pilot and pax have survived. The next time the throttle plate snags with some carb ice maybe it’s best to be open about it and let everyone at the club know so as not to leave the less experienced (and newbies) so dangerously in the dark about how this ice works.
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Re: Quick question on how to snag
He didn't pull the carb heat though. I'd 100% snag a power loss and pray that the previous renter would do the same. There needs to be a record in case of a worsening condition. This isn't like when you fly the same Beaver all summer. These airplanes get beat on like, well, a rental.
Safety starts with two