Should I upgrade? (Serious answers only please)

[Upgradeable]

Edited

[mmm...bacon]

Caveat: I’m not/haven’t really ever been on the Airline path, so my advice isn’t from someone swimming in that pond.

Take the upgrade.
You’ll get the upgrade course experience, which will be valuable in the future, no matter where you end up.
You’ll get the immediate pay bump, which will make your lifestyle a little easier.
I’m sure that reserve sucks, but it is what you make of it - lots of time to pursue other hobbies/interests while you wait for the phone to ring.
Jet PIC, which is pretty much the coin of the realm. If you decide (as many are doing) to throw in the towel in Canada, every international job is looking for experienced jet captains…

Good luck!

[flyingcanuck]

So I upgraded on the RJ with less than what was needed 5+ years ago, but I had also seen 3 summers + 3 winters on type on both coasts.

600 hours on type is roughly less than a year of flying, and you haven't seen a winter or barely since you would've been in training. I'd wait till next summer at least and see some more on the line. One of the more challenging things you're going to deal with as a CA (especially on RSB) are the CDs to the East Coast, gusting 40, blowing snow with a new FO and a plane full of people. Can you handle that? Even having several years on the plane it took me a while to feel comfortable enough for that.

There's no rush, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. I am not saying you are or aren't capable enough as I don't know you, just don't get pulled into the fomo with all the hiring and movement right now.

Some don't upgrade because they're worried about failing. I think that is bullshit, if someone is that worried then don't do it. It's a lot of fun, but with the fun comes the responsibility.

My 2c.

[digits_]

Upgrade upgrade upgrade.

You'll never regret having more PIC. And since you're applying elsewhere, you don't have to worry about long term career strategies/bottom of seniority etc.

Don't let vague policies determine your choices either. Who knows how flow will affect you when you upgrade.

[GIVCE!]

Do the upgrade! It’s an adventure…no regrets!
G

[BTD]

You really have to sit down and do some real soul searching. I do line training at my airline and I can certainly say success and what will make a good PIC usually comes down to attitude and personal disposition. It usually doesn’t matter too much if someone has 5000 hrs or 20000.

However, recognize that 1700 hrs with 600 in the jet environment is very low time to be an RJ captain. If that’s all I knew about the PIC of the aircraft I was boarding without any other context, I’d be having second thoughts going to YHZ in a winter storm. Especially knowing that the FO may have 500 hrs and be brand new.

The Navajo time and Aztec time is great, however, by the nature of the total time you have, you wouldn’t have spent much time there.

This isn’t a slight on you by the way, we were all at that experience level at one point and I don’t know you.

When I did my first upgrade on a jet I had about 6500 total and 2000 on type. I considered that low time.

After some deep personal reflecting and being honest with yourself, if you believe you are ready, then definitely go for it. But be honest about it and maybe one more winter would be good to see if you aren’t 1000% sure.

For the average person with your experience level, I’d recommend against the upgrade at this time. But only you know you. And it has nothing to do with passing the upgrade.

Best of luck, and remember this advice is worth what you paid for it.

[Upgradeable]

Edited

[cdnavater]

I appreciate all the input and constructive criticism from everyone on here! There were many points that were raised that haven't even occurred to me.

I still think that this is what I want to do, but the timing of when to upgrade is something that I'll have to sit down and think about. As many have said, more experience on the line as an FO will never not be beneficial in helping with the upgrade. I'll have to make the decision as to how much experience I personally need before attempting it.

Once again, I'd like to pass on a "Thank you" to everyone on here. It's been said to me before that this industry is built upon mentorship, and as a new airline pilot I really do appreciate all the advice I can get!

Please continue to add on to this topic as you see fit

As someone who trains on the RJ, it really does come down to the candidate, as BTD said and I concur some higher time struggle and some lower sail right through. I have encountered some upgrades in the last while that had a few years right seat RJ who know the aircraft very well and still struggle with the decision making aspect, this is something that is difficult to train. Decision making is often learned from watching others or years of making them at the 703/704 level, unfortunately you are likely flying with some Captains with the same amount of total time as you, no offence but it really is the blind leading the blind and we always say, they don’t know what they don’t know.
My first flight off Indoc was a stand-up into a blizzard with a new FO, I had 10 years of right seat and a 12 years of Northern king air, thousands of multi-pic and I can say, it’s different when you have a full load of people and it falls squarely on your shoulders. I can’t imagine doing that flight at your time and I really want to stress this next point, the junior FOs coming through right now have nothing but C172 time as an instructor, you do not have any back up in any situation, it will be completely up to you, if you’re ready for that responsibility, maybe I’ll be one of your instructors.

[Upgradeable]

Edited

[Outlaw58]

I appreciate all the input and constructive criticism from everyone on here! There were many points that were raised that haven't even occurred to me.

I still think that this is what I want to do, but the timing of when to upgrade is something that I'll have to sit down and think about. As many have said, more experience on the line as an FO will never not be beneficial in helping with the upgrade. I'll have to make the decision as to how much experience I personally need before attempting it.



Once again, I'd like to pass on a "Thank you" to everyone on here. It's been said to me before that this industry is built upon mentorship, and as a new airline pilot I really do appreciate all the advice I can get!

Please continue to add on to this topic as you see fit

As someone who trains on the RJ, it really does come down to the candidate, as BTD said and I concur some higher time struggle and some lower sail right through. I have encountered some upgrades in the last while that had a few years right seat RJ who know the aircraft very well and still struggle with the decision making aspect, this is something that is difficult to train. Decision making is often learned from watching others or years of making them at the 703/704 level, unfortunately you are likely flying with some Captains with the same amount of total time as you, no offence but it really is the blind leading the blind and we always say, they don’t know what they don’t know.
My first flight off Indoc was a stand-up into a blizzard with a new FO, I had 10 years of right seat and a 12 years of Northern king air, thousands of multi-pic and I can say, it’s different when you have a full load of people and it falls squarely on your shoulders. I can’t imagine doing that flight at your time and I really want to stress this next point, the junior FOs coming through right now have nothing but C172 time as an instructor, you do not have any back up in any situation, it will be completely up to you, if you’re ready for that responsibility, maybe I’ll be one of your instructors.

cdnavater

Thanks for the reply! How long does it take to get through the upgrade training provided there are no delays? Assuming a candidate who is already type rated is accepted into the training program in March, would a May completion date be a reasonable expectation?

The repeat theme I'm seeing in the comments here points towards needing more experience, in particular with winter ops. It seems it would be in my best interest and safety to stay an FO at least through a full winter.

Just trying to have a timeline in mind...

Thanks! Also sorry if the formatting in my reply is off, I never actually posted on this forum haha!

Yes your timeline is reasonable, could be even shorter if you don't have any training hiccups.

As for the MOS affecting your upgrade/flow to mainline, the language say that the company MAY elect not to train you due to flow (bypass pay applies) but an upgrade won't impact your flow to mainline.

Hope that answers your questions

58

[nohojob]

A good thing about doing it now is your line indoc would be in Winter which would be a good learning experience. Also initially as a green captain, you can put yourself some higher limits for the weather.

[cdnavater]

I appreciate all the input and constructive criticism from everyone on here! There were many points that were raised that haven't even occurred to me.

I still think that this is what I want to do, but the timing of when to upgrade is something that I'll have to sit down and think about. As many have said, more experience on the line as an FO will never not be beneficial in helping with the upgrade. I'll have to make the decision as to how much experience I personally need before attempting it.



Once again, I'd like to pass on a "Thank you" to everyone on here. It's been said to me before that this industry is built upon mentorship, and as a new airline pilot I really do appreciate all the advice I can get!

Please continue to add on to this topic as you see fit

As someone who trains on the RJ, it really does come down to the candidate, as BTD said and I concur some higher time struggle and some lower sail right through. I have encountered some upgrades in the last while that had a few years right seat RJ who know the aircraft very well and still struggle with the decision making aspect, this is something that is difficult to train. Decision making is often learned from watching others or years of making them at the 703/704 level, unfortunately you are likely flying with some Captains with the same amount of total time as you, no offence but it really is the blind leading the blind and we always say, they don’t know what they don’t know.
My first flight off Indoc was a stand-up into a blizzard with a new FO, I had 10 years of right seat and a 12 years of Northern king air, thousands of multi-pic and I can say, it’s different when you have a full load of people and it falls squarely on your shoulders. I can’t imagine doing that flight at your time and I really want to stress this next point, the junior FOs coming through right now have nothing but C172 time as an instructor, you do not have any back up in any situation, it will be completely up to you, if you’re ready for that responsibility, maybe I’ll be one of your instructors.

cdnavater

Thanks for the reply! How long does it take to get through the upgrade training provided there are no delays? Assuming a candidate who is already type rated is accepted into the training program in March, would a May completion date be a reasonable expectation?

The repeat theme I'm seeing in the comments here points towards needing more experience, in particular with winter ops. It seems it would be in my best interest and safety to stay an FO at least through a full winter.

Just trying to have a timeline in mind...

Thanks! Also sorry if the formatting in my reply is off, I never actually posted on this forum haha!

Looks like it’s about 16 to 26 days from start to finish, you’d be paired up with another upgrade candidate and they usually have seat support for the PIC evaluation.
As mentioned, if you bid for the upgrade but are projected to go to AC in the next 12 months, they can freeze you in your current position but you would get paid as if you did the training.
Good luck with your decision

[RoAF-Mig21]

With your expereince, I would stay put. Stay F/O.

Don't bite more than you can chew. Your TT and experience is not that much. Remember "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should". The only good thing I can see here is that you have time on type, which is good. Like someone else said, you may be flying with a new 250 hr F/O. Are you prepared to take on that responsability?

Hang around a bit, get more experience, enjoy your seniority and eventually you'll get to the left seat or AC.

Thant's just my advice...

[cykj]

Glad to see you asking about upgrading. Getting some jet PIC would be great but picture yourself going to YSJ on a CD in January, 2 hours late. The weather is awful, you're only going to have an hour at the hotel if you make it in. YHZ is the alternate and you'll definitely have to try again after refuelling at 0330. Then remember you're probably doing it again tomorrow.

I'm going to go with wait until after you have some more winter experience. Before deciding, try bidding some east coast continuous duties to see what you're going to be doing as a reserve YYZ CA.

[prop2jet]

I am going to echo the last 2 comments. I think you should wait. The last thing you want is to get into the upgrade and then find you really are not ready for it. AC is not the be all end all.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I have the other opinion. You mentioned that you feel confident. Roll with that. The only way to get decision making experience is to actually make decisions. Yes, sitting as an FO and watching captains contact operations and SOCC endlessly might seem easier, but if you have time on type and feel like you can safely do the job, go for it.

Jet PIC is huge. Get it while you can.

[QKZXKV]

I have the other opinion. You mentioned that you feel confident. Roll with that. The only way to get decision making experience is to actually make decisions. Yes, sitting as an FO and watching captains contact operations and SOCC endlessly might seem easier, but if you have time on type and feel like you can safely do the job, go for it.

Jet PIC is huge. Get it while you can.

I agree with this

[truedude]

I have the other opinion. You mentioned that you feel confident. Roll with that. The only way to get decision making experience is to actually make decisions. Yes, sitting as an FO and watching captains contact operations and SOCC endlessly might seem easier, but if you have time on type and feel like you can safely do the job, go for it.

Jet PIC is huge. Get it while you can.

I agree with this. Just know your limitations and don't feel pressured into situations you are not comfortable with. I think one of the hardest/biggest part if being a Captain, is knowing when to say no. When not to go. And when to go around. Don't gauge your decisions based on what others might do, make them based on your experience and comfort levels.

[cdnavater]

I have the other opinion. You mentioned that you feel confident. Roll with that. The only way to get decision making experience is to actually make decisions. Yes, sitting as an FO and watching captains contact operations and SOCC endlessly might seem easier, but if you have time on type and feel like you can safely do the job, go for it.

Jet PIC is huge. Get it while you can.

I agree with this. Just know your limitations and don't feel pressured into situations you are not comfortable with. I think one of the hardest/biggest part if being a Captain, is knowing when to say no. When not to go. And when to go around. Don't gauge your decisions based on what others might do, make them based on your experience and comfort levels.

That’s the problem, we are not a 703/704 charter airline, we are a scheduled 705 operation, if commercial wants us to go, we go with very few exceptions.
If a Captain off line Indoc has to cancel because they’re not comfortable, they’re not ready, plain and simple!

[digits_]

That’s the problem, we are not a 703/704 charter airline, we are a scheduled 705 operation, if commercial wants us to go, we go with very few exceptions.
If a Captain off line Indoc has to cancel because they’re not comfortable, they’re not ready, plain and simple!

Interesting.

That implies there should be no difference in captain competency level post line indoc.

If that's the case, why are 10 year captains making more than year 1 captains? After all, they should all have the same comfort level and skill level

[cdnavater]

That’s the problem, we are not a 703/704 charter airline, we are a scheduled 705 operation, if commercial wants us to go, we go with very few exceptions.
If a Captain off line Indoc has to cancel because they’re not comfortable, they’re not ready, plain and simple!

Interesting.

That implies there should be no difference in captain competency level post line indoc.

If that's the case, why are 10 year captains making more than year 1 captains? After all, they should all have the same comfort level and skill level

It’s called longevity, you know YOS, it has nothing to do with competency, the company feels ALL Captains should be able to do the same job. They don’t prevent junior pilots from operating with other junior pilots, it’s not an environment to feel your way through, you should have the experience to do the job or don’t bid it.

[Happyflyer78]

Only you would know if you should or shouldn’t upgrade. Luck has been on your side so far if you are qualified for an upgrade on an RJ at your experience level.

[PittBoss]

So I upgraded on the RJ with less than what was needed 5+ years ago, but I had also seen 3 summers + 3 winters on type on both coasts.

600 hours on type is roughly less than a year of flying, and you haven't seen a winter or barely since you would've been in training. I'd wait till next summer at least and see some more on the line. One of the more challenging things you're going to deal with as a CA (especially on RSB) are the CDs to the East Coast, gusting 40, blowing snow with a new FO and a plane full of people. Can you handle that? Even having several years on the plane it took me a while to feel comfortable enough for that.

There's no rush, just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. I am not saying you are or aren't capable enough as I don't know you, just don't get pulled into the fomo with all the hiring and movement right now.

Some don't upgrade because they're worried about failing. I think that is bullshit, if someone is that worried then don't do it. It's a lot of fun, but with the fun comes the responsibility.

My 2c.

I totally agree with this. Being on reserve and flying those legs which people drop for many odd reasons. Specially bad wx. Huge Huge responsibility.

[Upgradeable]

Edited

[CanadaAir]

Hey all, I forgot this post was still up. For anyone who's interested in my decision, I'm holding off on the upgrade until at least fall of 2024. Thanks again for the replies and PMs!

Smart

Those taking min hour upgrades might have troubles

What does it take to get 1000 hours on type, 1.5-2 year. That's as quick as it could be.
Much safer than those DEC lacking type time.
Colgan was a example of a captain with only 100 hours on type

Jazz ALPA should put in a minimum upgrade time on type with the company, all your jobs are on the line if there's an accident with a low time captain.
The public will stop flying Jazz if they find out the captain was only a few hundred hours on the aircraft.