So, years ago......

[RippleRock]

....we had a contract clause that stated that ALL new hires start off in one of two positions.

One was 50 seat RJ FO, the second was Relief Pilot. There was ZERO capacity for the Company to train a brand new pilot into any other position. This was done so that anyone who was currently holding a position at the Company could bid onto a Widebody FO position or even a narrow body 320 FO before it was available to new hires. Shortly after CCAA, there was a LET signed that allowed up to 200 new hires to be trained right seat on the 320. It was suppose to be a "one off" to get the aircraft crewed properly post restructuring. Wow. It was ALL downhill from that point.

Today we have direct entry new hire FO's going to 777 FO right off the street before the position is being offered to anyone already on the property. Activation dates are being manipulated, training dates deffered, all to the benefit of, wait for it....NOT us. There happens to be a litteral FLOOD of new hires making almost nothing crewing our Widebody fleet. It is now common to have 2 FO's and a Relief Pilot who, between the three, have a combined annual salary significantly less than their Captain. This is a travesty, and occurs nowhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Can anyone put a dollar figure on this "grab", and maybe add it to our pile of losses over the years??? Or maybe better, add the savings up and add it to the collossal pile of money the Company/Shareholders has been making off our backs.



FWIW, It would be very prudent for everyone to make themselves aware of where we -were- as a group and what we have -given up- under ACPA, or have been forced to give up under an oppressive Company/Government alliance.

This among a hundred other "grabs" over the years would quite literally make your head spin at the "discount" you're currently working under. Educate yourselves. We have fallen very, very far over the last two decades.

I think conservatively, a combination of wage stagnation and WACON losses would need a 250% wage correction for every position alone, to get us to where we should have been.

It's time to give back, and right the ship.

HOLD THE LINE

[TheAlcalde]

With a soulless accounting robot running the show, I wonder what else the future holds for this airline.

[RippleRock]

Yes. We have been squeezed to the BONE. Not one ounce of blood left to give.

Time to bring this career back to life. It will require a massive transfusion. Don't sell yourselves short.

Hold the Line.

[330heavy]

Good luck to you guys, I think every Canaidan pilot group is routing for you guys to set things right. Then we can all play off each other each renewal. Win win.

[GTEO]

Any insight as to how things are progressing so far now that the contract has been expired for a few weeks? Has there been any kind of dialogue happening that would indicate that things are pointed in the right direction, or is it still too soon to say? I understand that the union can’t disclose everything at this point, but I’m just curious if there are any positive rumours. The turnout in YYZ was a great display of solidarity, and it gave reason for a lot of optimism. The entire industry is behind this.

[RippleRock]

Any insight as to how things are progressing so far now that the contract has been expired for a few weeks? Has there been any kind of dialogue happening that would indicate that things are pointed in the right direction, or is it still too soon to say? I understand that the union can’t disclose everything at this point, but I’m just curious if there are any positive rumours. The turnout in YYZ was a great display of solidarity, and it gave reason for a lot of optimism. The entire industry is behind this.

I am not in the Union, only a Member. So this is just my opinion. It's just what I've gathered by keeping my ears open.


It's too early to tell. We are still in the "information exchange" phase. Not all proposed contract changes have been tabled, nor acknowledged by the Company. There is suppose to be a Union NC newsletter released shortly outlining exactly where we are in the process, and a "rough outline" of what contract proposals have been presented. Things will become much clearer then. It's expected to be out by late October or early Nov.

Expect the negotiation timeline to be "played" by the Company. They can declare an impasse at any time which would trigger a lockout. (...determined by a timeline in the Canada Labour Code). Expect an impasse to be declared that will coincide with a lockout date at the least sensitive time for forward looking bookings. My bet is a lockout just after the Spring Break travellers are all home.

The first Informational Picket was a great success, but we need bigger and better.


Also......

Expect the "sky to be falling" hard between now and then. The emotional impact of "bad news" on what you're prepared to accept can not be overstated. Creative accounting, a falling stock price, and general "doom and gloom" statements like "mortgage renewals imploding the economy", dwindling interest in air travel because of the economy, type rumors will be everywhere. All will allude to the concept that there is "just no money" to pay pilots anywhere near what they're asking. You'll hear that the Corp needs to stay "competitive" in it's home market, stuff like that. Expect a comment that alludes to the falsehood that if they give the pilots a big raise, everyone must get one. Hogwash. Every coercive trick in the book will be played as there are big $$$ at stake, and they want to keep the status quo, or as close to it as they can get. We pilots are working at such a massive discount compared to our competitors (US and Domestic) that they will be extremely reluctant to give that savings up. We are a massive money printing machine right now. Expect a fight.

Keep in mind that the Company pays for most of it's expenses and procurement costs in USD. Aircraft, engines, fuel, tires, ground support equipment among a hundred other things, all USD. So why can we not compare ourselves to our US counterparts? We do the exact same job in often the exact same environment. Your job certainly isn't EASIER than one in the States. Also remember that when fuel goes up, or rent at airports goes up, or landing fees rise, engine overhaul costs increase, Nav fees skyrocket, or a simple hydraulic fitting go up in price, THEY JUST PAY IT. No complaints. Don't let them think that a severe discount on your labor is a necessary function of the operation. That's false.

The best the individual can do going forward is listen to your Union Leadership. Pay attention to all messages, overt and subtle. Above all STAY UNITED. Attend the information pickets if you possibly can. This push is only going to require 6 months of DEDICATED EFFORT on everyone's part, and maybe two weeks to one month out on the line MAX. That's nothing, a "flash in the pan" compared to a 20-40 year career of proper and above all FAIR compensation. Ignore the "doom and gloom" messaging that I promise you will come as it's a "red herring". Keep your eye on the ball....and remember....

HOLD THE LINE

[kiaszceski]

I wish we could have a like button here...

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Is anyone else concerned our training programs are not designed to turn Jazz FOs into widebody FOs? I wonder how much pencil whipping is occurring.

[A310Heavy]

Good luck to you guys, I think every Canaidan pilot group is routing for you guys to set things right. Then we can all play off each other each renewal. Win win.

Oh, and want to call me a management shill, go for it. I think our management is top notch, doing a great job Are things perfect? No, but we’re on the right track, and good things are coming.

Air Transat shills won't be paving the way, that's for sure

Strength & Unity is the only way. Being buds with management is NOT

RippleRock - well said Sir

[DanWEC]

Good luck to you guys, I think every Canaidan pilot group is routing for you guys to set things right. Then we can all play off each other each renewal. Win win.

Oh, and want to call me a management shill, go for it. I think our management is top notch, doing a great job Are things perfect? No, but we’re on the right track, and good things are coming.

Air Transat shills won't be paving the way, that's for sure

Strength & Unity is the only way. Being buds with management is NOT

RippleRock - well said Sir

Division is strong with you eh? What we don't need is the crab in the bucket, so go away.

Back on track, well said RR!

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Good luck to you guys, I think every Canaidan pilot group is routing for you guys to set things right. Then we can all play off each other each renewal. Win win.

Oh, and want to call me a management shill, go for it. I think our management is top notch, doing a great job Are things perfect? No, but we’re on the right track, and good things are coming.

Air Transat shills won't be paving the way, that's for sure

Strength & Unity is the only way. Being buds with management is NOT

RippleRock - well said Sir

Division is strong with you eh? What we don't need is the crab in the bucket, so go away.

Back on track, well said RR!

To be fair...it was an Air Transat pilot showing solidarity with management. That's a division we do need and seems to be missing here

[RippleRock]

Over the years I have made a few tough decisions.

While making those decisions, I made a serious attempt to "think like a business man". Remove the emotional component and think "what's best for my family's future". They were very hard decisions, followed by actions that were not immediately rewarded.

During negotiations, think of yourself as being the "business decision maker" responsible for the well being of your family's future. When you do this, you'll start to think like our CEO. It's a numbers game only. You are a number, and you cost a "number" to provide a service. The value of that service hasn't changed over the decades, but the compensation for that service has severely deteriorated. It is your full responsibility as the "business manager" of your family's finances and economic future to get that compensation number back on track. Doing "extra" has a number, the strike, if and when it happens has a number, and the success of our negotiations also has a number. Do some math, and you'll see that standing united behind a common cause has the biggest reward in store by a large margin. Any "extra" (short term gains) and any lockout/strike costs (short term losses) would be erased within the first 6 months of a new contract with proper compensation, and will continue to reward your family for the rest of your career. It will be your new "baseline".

Take the responsibility as an individual, and the group will triumph. Don't take your eye off that goal, no matter what emotions you face.

The Company has the money to compensate you properly, --plenty actually-- the only thing that will make them is YOU.

[GTEO]

Thanks for the reply and the valuable insight, RippleRock. It will be interesting to see what is presented to the pilots from the union in the coming weeks. It sounds like it will be a battle alright, but here’s hoping that the rewards are worth the short term pain. History is being made and we are all here to watch it.

[Bede]

Over the years I have made a few tough decisions.

While making those decisions, I made a serious attempt to "think like a business man". Remove the emotional component and think "what's best for my family's future". They were very hard decisions, followed by actions that were not immediately rewarded.

During negotiations, think of yourself as being the "business decision maker" responsible for the well being of your family's future. When you do this, you'll start to think like our CEO. It's a numbers game only. You are a number, and you cost a "number" to provide a service. The value of that service hasn't changed over the decades, but the compensation for that service has severely deteriorated. It is your full responsibility as the "business manager" of your family's finances and economic future to get that compensation number back on track. Doing "extra" has a number, the strike, if and when it happens has a number, and the success of our negotiations also has a number. Do some math, and you'll see that standing united behind a common cause has the biggest reward in store by a large margin. Any "extra" (short term gains) and any lockout/strike costs (short term losses) would be erased within the first 6 months of a new contract with proper compensation, and will continue to reward your family for the rest of your career. It will be your new "baseline".

Take the responsibility as an individual, and the group will triumph. Don't take your eye off that goal, no matter what emotions you face.

The Company has the money to compensate you properly, --plenty actually-- the only thing that will make them is YOU.

Absolutely bang on.

[AirCandida]

RA RA RA, that's all that comes out of the loud mouths here. They talk big online, but in real life they are pu$$ies. FACT is, you will cave AGAIN with a 10,000 signing bonus, for ANOTHER 10 YEARS. PATHETIC. You all will AGAIN lower the bar for EVERYONE in Canada, but hey, it's the NHL of the airlines. After all that, ACPA will return, because it will be realized you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a GD pig. Pat yourselves on the back boys (little boys at that).

[cdnavater]

RA RA RA, that's all that comes out of the loud mouths here. They talk big online, but in real life they are pu$$ies. FACT is, you will cave AGAIN with a 10,000 signing bonus, for ANOTHER 10 YEARS. PATHETIC. You all will AGAIN lower the bar for EVERYONE in Canada, but hey, it's the NHL of the airlines. After all that, ACPA will return, because it will be realized you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a GD pig. Pat yourselves on the back boys (little boys at that).

Wow, your recent PFO really hurt your feelings

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

....we had a contract clause that stated that ALL new hires start off in one of two positions.

One was 50 seat RJ FO, the second was Relief Pilot. There was ZERO capacity for the Company to train a brand new pilot into any other position. This was done so that anyone who was currently holding a position at the Company could bid onto a Widebody FO position or even a narrow body 320 FO before it was available to new hires. Shortly after CCAA, there was a LET signed that allowed up to 200 new hires to be trained right seat on the 320. It was suppose to be a "one off" to get the aircraft crewed properly post restructuring. Wow. It was ALL downhill from that point.

Today we have direct entry new hire FO's going to 777 FO right off the street before the position is being offered to anyone already on the property.

I am beginning to wonder if RR even works at AC.... in the 90s pilots were hired into positions as high as 767 FO....so nothing new there. Please show us the contract paragraph where new-hires were prohibited from all but 2 bid positions!

Do you even know how CMSC bids work? All positions are posted on the bid, and all pilots (who don't have a new-hire freeze) are allowed to bid to any position their seniority can hold...only after the bid closes are new-hires posted to vacant positions....sheeesh talk about all thrust and no vector

[AirCandida]

RA RA RA, that's all that comes out of the loud mouths here. They talk big online, but in real life they are pu$$ies. FACT is, you will cave AGAIN with a 10,000 signing bonus, for ANOTHER 10 YEARS. PATHETIC. You all will AGAIN lower the bar for EVERYONE in Canada, but hey, it's the NHL of the airlines. After all that, ACPA will return, because it will be realized you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a GD pig. Pat yourselves on the back boys (little boys at that).

Wow, your recent PFO really hurt your feelings

YOU mean YOUR PFO hurt YOUR feelings. So you did the mental gymnastics in your head to say you're better at Jazz, all the while you come across as a crusty ol'duck plucker, no wonder you're not really well like over there BUT KEEP on voting for the same garbage contracts at Jazz, you're not doing anyone, not even yourself any favors. You might as well go work at Walmart if you want to work for Walmart wages. But keep saying job security, see how that's working out for you. Keep voting in contracts that get vilolated, see how that goes for you. See how the industry has gone down the tiolet by the likes of you voting in this garabage EVERY TIME! DISGUSTING!

[cdnavater]

RA RA RA, that's all that comes out of the loud mouths here. They talk big online, but in real life they are pu$$ies. FACT is, you will cave AGAIN with a 10,000 signing bonus, for ANOTHER 10 YEARS. PATHETIC. You all will AGAIN lower the bar for EVERYONE in Canada, but hey, it's the NHL of the airlines. After all that, ACPA will return, because it will be realized you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a GD pig. Pat yourselves on the back boys (little boys at that).

Wow, your recent PFO really hurt your feelings

YOU mean YOUR PFO hurt YOUR feelings. So you did the mental gymnastics in your head to say you're better at Jazz, all the while you come across as a crusty ol'duck plucker, no wonder you're not really well like over there BUT KEEP on voting for the same garbage contracts at Jazz, you're not doing anyone, not even yourself any favors. You might as well go work at Walmart if you want to work for Walmart wages. But keep saying job security, see how that's working out for you. Keep voting in contracts that get vilolated, see how that goes for you. See how the industry has gone down the tiolet by the likes of you voting in this garabage EVERY TIME! DISGUSTING!

You’re pretty funny, btw I do alright and I wouldn’t chirp too much as a Flair pilot there bud, my 181.50/hr trumps your 160, just saying.

[Tbayer2021]

Wow, your recent PFO really hurt your feelings

YOU mean YOUR PFO hurt YOUR feelings. So you did the mental gymnastics in your head to say you're better at Jazz, all the while you come across as a crusty ol'duck plucker, no wonder you're not really well like over there BUT KEEP on voting for the same garbage contracts at Jazz, you're not doing anyone, not even yourself any favors. You might as well go work at Walmart if you want to work for Walmart wages. But keep saying job security, see how that's working out for you. Keep voting in contracts that get vilolated, see how that goes for you. See how the industry has gone down the tiolet by the likes of you voting in this garabage EVERY TIME! DISGUSTING!

You’re pretty funny, btw I do alright and I wouldn’t chirp too much as a Flair pilot there bud, my 181.50/hr trumps your 160, just saying.

Wow, your recent PFO really hurt your feelings

YOU mean YOUR PFO hurt YOUR feelings. So you did the mental gymnastics in your head to say you're better at Jazz, all the while you come across as a crusty ol'duck plucker, no wonder you're not really well like over there BUT KEEP on voting for the same garbage contracts at Jazz, you're not doing anyone, not even yourself any favors. You might as well go work at Walmart if you want to work for Walmart wages. But keep saying job security, see how that's working out for you. Keep voting in contracts that get vilolated, see how that goes for you. See how the industry has gone down the tiolet by the likes of you voting in this garabage EVERY TIME! DISGUSTING!

You’re pretty funny, btw I do alright and I wouldn’t chirp too much as a Flair pilot there bud, my 181.50/hr trumps your 160, just saying.

Not defending Flair's pay by any means. But you're comparing top Jazz scale to 1st year Flair?

[cdnavater]

YOU mean YOUR PFO hurt YOUR feelings. So you did the mental gymnastics in your head to say you're better at Jazz, all the while you come across as a crusty ol'duck plucker, no wonder you're not really well like over there BUT KEEP on voting for the same garbage contracts at Jazz, you're not doing anyone, not even yourself any favors. You might as well go work at Walmart if you want to work for Walmart wages. But keep saying job security, see how that's working out for you. Keep voting in contracts that get vilolated, see how that goes for you. See how the industry has gone down the tiolet by the likes of you voting in this garabage EVERY TIME! DISGUSTING!

You’re pretty funny, btw I do alright and I wouldn’t chirp too much as a Flair pilot there bud, my 181.50/hr trumps your 160, just saying.

YOU mean YOUR PFO hurt YOUR feelings. So you did the mental gymnastics in your head to say you're better at Jazz, all the while you come across as a crusty ol'duck plucker, no wonder you're not really well like over there BUT KEEP on voting for the same garbage contracts at Jazz, you're not doing anyone, not even yourself any favors. You might as well go work at Walmart if you want to work for Walmart wages. But keep saying job security, see how that's working out for you. Keep voting in contracts that get vilolated, see how that goes for you. See how the industry has gone down the tiolet by the likes of you voting in this garabage EVERY TIME! DISGUSTING!

You’re pretty funny, btw I do alright and I wouldn’t chirp too much as a Flair pilot there bud, my 181.50/hr trumps your 160, just saying.

Not defending Flair's pay by any means. But you're comparing top Jazz scale to 1st year Flair?

Sure, I realize that, however I hardly think you can equate any Jazz pilot to Walmart, if any airline in Canada is the Walmart its Flair.
As for regional wages, I’m pretty sure Jazz is back on top but to be honest I haven’t looked too closely.

[alkaseltzer]

RA RA RA, that's all that comes out of the loud mouths here. They talk big online, but in real life they are pu$$ies. FACT is, you will cave AGAIN with a 10,000 signing bonus, for ANOTHER 10 YEARS. PATHETIC. You all will AGAIN lower the bar for EVERYONE in Canada, but hey, it's the NHL of the airlines. After all that, ACPA will return, because it will be realized you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a GD pig. Pat yourselves on the back boys (little boys at that).

Wow, your recent PFO really hurt your feelings

YOU mean YOUR PFO hurt YOUR feelings. So you did the mental gymnastics in your head to say you're better at Jazz, all the while you come across as a crusty ol'duck plucker, no wonder you're not really well like over there BUT KEEP on voting for the same garbage contracts at Jazz, you're not doing anyone, not even yourself any favors. You might as well go work at Walmart if you want to work for Walmart wages. But keep saying job security, see how that's working out for you. Keep voting in contracts that get vilolated, see how that goes for you. See how the industry has gone down the tiolet by the likes of you voting in this garabage EVERY TIME! DISGUSTING!

"Vilolated"
"Tiolet"
"Garabage"

Joseph, Mary and the wee donkeys, how did someone hire you with such poor literacy?

[Tbayer2021]

You’re pretty funny, btw I do alright and I wouldn’t chirp too much as a Flair pilot there bud, my 181.50/hr trumps your 160, just saying.

You’re pretty funny, btw I do alright and I wouldn’t chirp too much as a Flair pilot there bud, my 181.50/hr trumps your 160, just saying.

Not defending Flair's pay by any means. But you're comparing top Jazz scale to 1st year Flair?

Sure, I realize that, however I hardly think you can equate any Jazz pilot to Walmart, if any airline in Canada is the Walmart its Flair.
As for regional wages, I’m pretty sure Jazz is back on top but to be honest I haven’t looked too closely.

Plus, isn't the scale at jazz almost 20 years to the top?

[RippleRock]

....we had a contract clause that stated that ALL new hires start off in one of two positions.

One was 50 seat RJ FO, the second was Relief Pilot. There was ZERO capacity for the Company to train a brand new pilot into any other position. This was done so that anyone who was currently holding a position at the Company could bid onto a Widebody FO position or even a narrow body 320 FO before it was available to new hires. Shortly after CCAA, there was a LET signed that allowed up to 200 new hires to be trained right seat on the 320. It was suppose to be a "one off" to get the aircraft crewed properly post restructuring. Wow. It was ALL downhill from that point.

Today we have direct entry new hire FO's going to 777 FO right off the street before the position is being offered to anyone already on the property.

I am beginning to wonder if RR even works at AC.... in the 90s pilots were hired into positions as high as 767 FO....so nothing new there. Please show us the contract paragraph where new-hires were prohibited from all but 2 bid positions!

Do you even know how CMSC bids work? All positions are posted on the bid, and all pilots (who don't have a new-hire freeze) are allowed to bid to any position their seniority can hold...only after the bid closes are new-hires posted to vacant positions....sheeesh talk about all thrust and no vector

I stand corrected, but I dont forgive you for what you allowed us to become, no one should.

737 Zip positions appeared open to new hires on CMSC 01-04 and a bit later. However, no one could hold 320 FO right off the street. Freeze criteria has changed over the years, so don't waste your time quoting "specific freeze rules".

Do you remember a LET post CCAA in the summer of 2005 that allowed for a "limited number" of pilots to be trained directly onto the 320? Why was there a LET? A specific contract allowance for a limited, one time number of pilots. If you question that LET, you either were not on the property, or more likely have a selective memory. That LET was granted because the 320 FO position was coveted. Insane concept isn't it? Who would want a 320FO position? Well times have certainly changed haven't they. That's not a question.

The fact remains that you guys are 100% responsible for "hard selling" $hitty contracts over the years that decimated the natural seniority progression onto larger aircraft. That's the point I was making. Accept some responsibility for dragging our asses into the mud.

To guys like Kaffee, it's "situation normal" to have a 4 year 777 FO making less than $100 an hour. Just so you all know who I'm talking to.

[JHR]

I'm pretty sure Walmart pilots make more than both Jazz and Flair pilots