I called up a company that was responsible for doing the maintenance on UBC a few years back and in the logs it was pretty vaigue. It just said to reference to a work order and listed the number. I called the company and they wanted me to pay $10 less than shop price ($60) an hour to have them pull it out of archives. Is this a common practice among shops? I decided that I did not want to pay $100 at the moment just to get some paperwork but I would have thought this is something that out of curtesy they would do for free.....
Maybe its just me.
Archived Work Orders
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niss
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Archived Work Orders
She’s built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
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Bullet Remington
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Niss:
The original aircraft owner/s should have a copy of the work orders, listing the work that has been done. It is dictated by CARs that AMOs provide ORIGINAL copies to the aircraft owner operator, as well as retain copies of the work orders for archived records.
In some cases, depending upon the time frame, AMo's will have these records stored away in a back room somewhere. Again depending upon the time frame, later AMOs in some instances, will have these records on hard rive and can burn off a copy.
As for AMOs charging for these, that's business. If the original owner did not provide them to the new owner, AND I have to take the time to sit down and dig them out, then I charge for my time. Basically, it means that I am taking time I could be earning a living to provide, again in some cases, a service to a customer I won't ever see.
Time = money. Unfortunate, but courtesy won't pay the shop bills.
Good luck with the attempt though, I do wish you well.
The original aircraft owner/s should have a copy of the work orders, listing the work that has been done. It is dictated by CARs that AMOs provide ORIGINAL copies to the aircraft owner operator, as well as retain copies of the work orders for archived records.
In some cases, depending upon the time frame, AMo's will have these records stored away in a back room somewhere. Again depending upon the time frame, later AMOs in some instances, will have these records on hard rive and can burn off a copy.
As for AMOs charging for these, that's business. If the original owner did not provide them to the new owner, AND I have to take the time to sit down and dig them out, then I charge for my time. Basically, it means that I am taking time I could be earning a living to provide, again in some cases, a service to a customer I won't ever see.
Time = money. Unfortunate, but courtesy won't pay the shop bills.
Good luck with the attempt though, I do wish you well.
Records
If you own an aircraft and the data you need is not in the log book you have a problem as all work accomplished is to be entered.
Referencing a WO# is not full compliance.
The best practice is to attach a copy of the WO if you cannot enter the particulars in the log book.
Commercial aircraft operate differently under their schedules however private should have entries. The better shops will print out the work scope on a word processor and paste it onto a log page then sign it. Always be suspicious of quick sign offs they tend to indicate hidden problems and sloppy work.
This particular AMO may want to charge you but it leads me to believe they did it wrong in the first place, and if they had any commercial sense they would provide this as a professional courtesy.
Referencing a WO# is not full compliance.
The best practice is to attach a copy of the WO if you cannot enter the particulars in the log book.
Commercial aircraft operate differently under their schedules however private should have entries. The better shops will print out the work scope on a word processor and paste it onto a log page then sign it. Always be suspicious of quick sign offs they tend to indicate hidden problems and sloppy work.
This particular AMO may want to charge you but it leads me to believe they did it wrong in the first place, and if they had any commercial sense they would provide this as a professional courtesy.
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airplanenut66
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Logbook Entries
Just a note to KKboy,
I am not sure but I believe your statement that "If you own an aircraft and the data you need is not in the log book you have a problem as all work accomplished is to be entered.
Referencing a WO# is not full compliance." is somewhat incorrect, I work for a medium size AMO as an inspector and we do not include every little cleared descrepancy. If you are doing a 48 month inspection on a Hawker 800 and you have say 250 snags it is impossible to enter all these in the log books. However I am under the belief that any item that has a p/n and s/n must be addressed in the log entry as well as any certification of pitot satic systems,transponders certs and majormods or repairs,flight controls and engine adjustments, but tightening 3 screws in floorboard panel does not require an entry in the logbook. We have talked closely with a Transport representitive about this to ensure we are in compliance and we are. The owner will recieve a complete work package itemizing every snag cleared and referenced by a work order.
We have had on many occasions customers who have called 2years later asking for a wiring diagram for a inverter installation we have performed because they have lost there's. We are now charging a minimum charge to go to archives to retrieve this info because you are tying up a person for some time and have no way of recouping for his lost time.
So a note to all owners, make sure your log book entry is as you wish, ensure you file any records for the aircraft and do not lose as this will become a pain in the behind for you and for the poor fellow who has to go look up the info to send to you and here about the griping of an hour bill!
I am not sure but I believe your statement that "If you own an aircraft and the data you need is not in the log book you have a problem as all work accomplished is to be entered.
Referencing a WO# is not full compliance." is somewhat incorrect, I work for a medium size AMO as an inspector and we do not include every little cleared descrepancy. If you are doing a 48 month inspection on a Hawker 800 and you have say 250 snags it is impossible to enter all these in the log books. However I am under the belief that any item that has a p/n and s/n must be addressed in the log entry as well as any certification of pitot satic systems,transponders certs and majormods or repairs,flight controls and engine adjustments, but tightening 3 screws in floorboard panel does not require an entry in the logbook. We have talked closely with a Transport representitive about this to ensure we are in compliance and we are. The owner will recieve a complete work package itemizing every snag cleared and referenced by a work order.
We have had on many occasions customers who have called 2years later asking for a wiring diagram for a inverter installation we have performed because they have lost there's. We are now charging a minimum charge to go to archives to retrieve this info because you are tying up a person for some time and have no way of recouping for his lost time.
So a note to all owners, make sure your log book entry is as you wish, ensure you file any records for the aircraft and do not lose as this will become a pain in the behind for you and for the poor fellow who has to go look up the info to send to you and here about the griping of an hour bill!
nut66
Thanks I understand your position and agree that not everything can be explained in a log book entry.
Look at it this way, I suspect that this Hawker you speak of has had an engine visit. In the engine log they have likely made an entry that it was say overhauled. It would be appropriate to attach a reasonably complex document to the log page showing all SB's and modifications accomplished test results and certification for future reference not a statement and tag.
I don't think it is unreasonable to do this exact same thing on a major check.
Certainly a screw replacement is not going to require an entry and serialized components will but the intent is to be as complete as possible should there ever be any questions.
Transport Canada as far as I am concerned only have the minimum requirement in mind and that is good but you certainly are not required to accomplish only the minimum.
As far as what is compliance, I am sure you have seen lots of entries which were less than what you would have preffered, that sort of thing annoys the hell out of me and I teach people to be complete using MM chapter references and an entry for everything you do to an aircraft within reason.
Look at it this way, I suspect that this Hawker you speak of has had an engine visit. In the engine log they have likely made an entry that it was say overhauled. It would be appropriate to attach a reasonably complex document to the log page showing all SB's and modifications accomplished test results and certification for future reference not a statement and tag.
I don't think it is unreasonable to do this exact same thing on a major check.
Certainly a screw replacement is not going to require an entry and serialized components will but the intent is to be as complete as possible should there ever be any questions.
Transport Canada as far as I am concerned only have the minimum requirement in mind and that is good but you certainly are not required to accomplish only the minimum.
As far as what is compliance, I am sure you have seen lots of entries which were less than what you would have preffered, that sort of thing annoys the hell out of me and I teach people to be complete using MM chapter references and an entry for everything you do to an aircraft within reason.
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Bullet Remington
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KK;
There are a variety of legal ways to make entries in both the tech logs as well as the journey logs.
For "Transport" catagory aircraft such as the Hawker and B737's, the manner with which entires are made are solely dependent upon the operator's procedures, as listed in their (the Operator's) Maintenance policy and Procedures Manual.
Some are very, very basic. I.E. : "C" Check carried out at XXX.XX airframes hour IAW manufacturer's ? Operators specification BLah, Blah, by Arman's Camel shoing, Barn Door Painiting and Bikini Cuts, AMO # 000-000.
Others are more detailed, again depending upon the procedures.
On light aircraft, it will depend upon the AMO/Owner's dictates and approval. For instance if only a 100 hour/Annual inspection is completed then the statement will state an annual was completed , with the airframes hours and date accomplished.
Should I be doing the annual, I also enter any snags noted and rectified. If the snags are NON- Airworthiness snags, AND the owner elects to have them deferred, then that is noted as well, in both the journey and airframe tech logs. As well, all AWD's complied with and or checked for applicablity is also noted.
AWD's are also recorded in the AWD/ Component removal - reolacement log. An entry is made in the prop and engine logs as well.
IF, i am completing a major repair and/or mod, this is BRIEFLY entered in the Journey and Air frame tech logs. Depending upon the repair, the work sheets MAY include up to 15 pages. I have done work fro an operator whose procedures dictated that all the work be recorded in the log book. I used over 8 pages to record it. And nobody ever reads them!
So what I do is provide a brief description of the work carried out and referr to the work order. The work order listed itemized actions taken. The original work order is supplied to the owner/operator and a copy kept on file.
All perfectly legal. (If such a term actually exists!!) One would assume, in the event the aircraft is sold, the new owner would recieve all copies of all work orders listing the work carried out on the machine. These records SHOULD be provided by the previous owner and or Lessee of the machine.
While this manner MAY appear to be inadequate to some, it has been and is the "norm" for many operators/owner' Leasors and Lessees.
I suspect it will be that way for a long time to come.
It is indeed unfortunate that Niss is having difficulty getting these past records. I don't know the sepcifics of his particular situation, however, his pre-buy engineer SHOULD have asked for thjose records PRIOR to making a recommendation to him on the feasability of purchasing the machine.
I know that statement don't help much, after the fact. None-the-less it is true.
I don't hjave a magical recommendation to him, but I do wish him well.
As for courtesy in providing, Time is money! Car mechainc's , lawyers, doctor and every othe r"professional" in business today, including pilots, don't work for free.
Neither do engineers.m Not trying to be negative nor discouraging here, just a fact. Air craft cost money. Every time one turns around there's another bill.
That's the way it is, and that's the way it shall be. Hard for small private owners, but none-the-less it's the cost of owning an aircraft and operating it.
Good Luck, Niss. I wish you well, Sir!
There are a variety of legal ways to make entries in both the tech logs as well as the journey logs.
For "Transport" catagory aircraft such as the Hawker and B737's, the manner with which entires are made are solely dependent upon the operator's procedures, as listed in their (the Operator's) Maintenance policy and Procedures Manual.
Some are very, very basic. I.E. : "C" Check carried out at XXX.XX airframes hour IAW manufacturer's ? Operators specification BLah, Blah, by Arman's Camel shoing, Barn Door Painiting and Bikini Cuts, AMO # 000-000.
Others are more detailed, again depending upon the procedures.
On light aircraft, it will depend upon the AMO/Owner's dictates and approval. For instance if only a 100 hour/Annual inspection is completed then the statement will state an annual was completed , with the airframes hours and date accomplished.
Should I be doing the annual, I also enter any snags noted and rectified. If the snags are NON- Airworthiness snags, AND the owner elects to have them deferred, then that is noted as well, in both the journey and airframe tech logs. As well, all AWD's complied with and or checked for applicablity is also noted.
AWD's are also recorded in the AWD/ Component removal - reolacement log. An entry is made in the prop and engine logs as well.
IF, i am completing a major repair and/or mod, this is BRIEFLY entered in the Journey and Air frame tech logs. Depending upon the repair, the work sheets MAY include up to 15 pages. I have done work fro an operator whose procedures dictated that all the work be recorded in the log book. I used over 8 pages to record it. And nobody ever reads them!
So what I do is provide a brief description of the work carried out and referr to the work order. The work order listed itemized actions taken. The original work order is supplied to the owner/operator and a copy kept on file.
All perfectly legal. (If such a term actually exists!!) One would assume, in the event the aircraft is sold, the new owner would recieve all copies of all work orders listing the work carried out on the machine. These records SHOULD be provided by the previous owner and or Lessee of the machine.
While this manner MAY appear to be inadequate to some, it has been and is the "norm" for many operators/owner' Leasors and Lessees.
I suspect it will be that way for a long time to come.
It is indeed unfortunate that Niss is having difficulty getting these past records. I don't know the sepcifics of his particular situation, however, his pre-buy engineer SHOULD have asked for thjose records PRIOR to making a recommendation to him on the feasability of purchasing the machine.
I know that statement don't help much, after the fact. None-the-less it is true.
I don't hjave a magical recommendation to him, but I do wish him well.
As for courtesy in providing, Time is money! Car mechainc's , lawyers, doctor and every othe r"professional" in business today, including pilots, don't work for free.
Neither do engineers.m Not trying to be negative nor discouraging here, just a fact. Air craft cost money. Every time one turns around there's another bill.
That's the way it is, and that's the way it shall be. Hard for small private owners, but none-the-less it's the cost of owning an aircraft and operating it.
Good Luck, Niss. I wish you well, Sir!
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Techopsgirl
- Rank 2
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- Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:34 am
I've been in tech records for a few years & have had to do this once or twice before. I can see the reasoning like everyone else for charging a fee for this service. Sometimes it can take a while to dig up old records, make copies and get it ready for shipping, time that cost the company money. We are going through 3 or 4 c-checks which are done by an outside company and we are provided with all the original paperwork (as all aircraft operators are) and a copy is kept with the AMO facility that completes the check. You should have recieved the original check packs when the aircraft finished the maintenance visit which you keep in your archives. It is not mandatory to make entires in the logs for each part change as long as it is documented properly in the check package. I believe there should be entires for any dual inspections, and ground runs and the like. It is common pratice for a maintenance facility to release the aircrft with reference to a work order or "check package" otherwise many a AME would have a serious case of carpal tunnel symdrome!
check package
I think what is being lost in this is that you seldom do a C check on a Piper Cherokee.
The world of Transport aircraft and general aviation are not comparable in regards to log book entries.
The world of Transport aircraft and general aviation are not comparable in regards to log book entries.
