Pacific Coastal - flight instructors aren't real pilots

[CanadaAir]

Pacific Coastal keeping up the false line that flight instructors are the lesser of pilots

You don't want to work for a company with this management,
Time for ALPA votes - WJ pilots will back you




• 500 hours Total Time*

*Preference given to candidates with a type rating, multi crew, multi engine, IFR, and/or turbine experience in 600/702/703/704/705 or military operations. Flight Instructor candidates should expect consideration with 1000+ hours total time experience.

viewtopic.php?t=202899

[CanadaAir]

You’re only a relief pilot
You’re only a narrow body pilot
you're just a regional pilot
You only flew a single engine
You’re only a float pilot
You’re only a piston pilot
Push-pull isn’t real multi time
you're just Canadian pilots
You’re only an instructor

There’re companies which use differences to divide pilots against each other & accept lower wages while the company profits.

This post already has pilot arguing calling one type of flying lesser than another, instead of questioning the low pay and high bond at Pacific Coastal.


More to piloting than generalizing with Pacific Coastal calling flight instruction as lesser experience.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Like any flying job my recommendation is to apply anyway even if you don't have the minimums. What PASCO wants is trainable applicants so use your cover letter to show the airline examples of how you learned new skills. One area where flight schools fail is the lack of SMS training. So if you are an Instructor what have you done to promote safety management systems at your school ?

[digits_]

Like any flying job my recommendation is to apply anyway even if you don't have the minimums. What PASCO wants is trainable applicants so use your cover letter to show the airline examples of how you learned new skills. One area where flight schools fail is the lack of SMS training. So if you are an Instructor what have you done to promote safety management systems at your school ?

The last thing companies want (except for perhaps major 705 operations) are pilots with an above average interest in SMS reports or safety policies. Let alone someone trying to implement stuff like that. It will quickly get you labelled as a trouble maker.

[rigpiggy]

As a line guy I always found training instructors difficult.
We're going to fly at 14000' this leg. " but the flightplan says fl200"
Yes I know however we will have only 40 kt hw vs 120, "but we need to fly high for the TAS" actually this planes tries best between 17-fl190. We're going to fly this route" but the flightplan says we have to South of lake Ontario," yes but the winds are better this way, and we will get a direct for rwy 24L. Many times at cruise, I would pull out the flight manual, "I have control" drop it in their laps and say"show me" back then we used the beer system I'm wrong, I buy a beer if your wrong you buy me a beer! I wish that I collected on more beer, but 2 a night was enough(vs 6)
Biggest problem I had with instructors was undoing the indoctrination.

[digits_]

As a line guy I always found training instructors difficult.
We're going to fly at 14000' this leg. " but the flightplan says fl200"
Yes I know however we will have only 40 kt hw vs 120, "but we need to fly high for the TAS" actually this planes tries best between 17-fl190. We're going to fly this route" but the flightplan says we have to South of lake Ontario," yes but the winds are better this way, and we will get a direct for rwy 24L.

Sounds like shitty flight planning more than anything. You don't want your FO to point out the route you want to fly doesn't match the one on the flight plan?

Many times at cruise, I would pull out the flight manual, "I have control" drop it in their laps and say"show me" back then we used the beer system I'm wrong, I buy a beer if your wrong you buy me a beer! I wish that I collected on more beer, but 2 a night was enough(vs 6)
Biggest problem I had with instructors was undoing the indoctrination.

Great CRM skills!

I'm curious, would you have treated them the same if you *didn't* know they had an instructor background?

[rigpiggy]

Yes, I am more than willing to explain the reasons for my decisions. But I always found the FI s to be more combative. "The book says" my response was to pull out the book and say "show me! ". I won't say I'm never wrong, but I got bought a lot more beer than I had to buy!

Being wrong means I learned something.

[rigpiggy]

[/quote]

Great CRM skills!

I'm curious, would you have treated them the same if you *didn't* know they had an instructor background?
[/quote]

Arguing with your captain, isn't my definition of great CRM either. Provided it isn't a safety issue, debrief after, or ask for clarification. But the instructor attitude of "I'm an instructor, and can never be wrong" is as disruptive to free flow in the flights as anything else.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Like any flying job my recommendation is to apply anyway even if you don't have the minimums. What PASCO wants is trainable applicants so use your cover letter to show the airline examples of how you learned new skills. One area where flight schools fail is the lack of SMS training. So if you are an Instructor what have you done to promote safety management systems at your school ?

First off i said safety management systems, not SMS. This doesn’t have to mean a full boat official SMS, but taking an interest in how organization safety could be improved, as in “I did these 3 things to help improve safety at my flight school”.

Responsible operators want pilots with a safety mindset. SMS is one aspect of that but the problem is that many pilots aren’t using it effectively. Good SMS reports actually will often save money for the company, bad ones waste everyone’s time.

[digits_]

First off i said safety management systems, not SMS. This doesn’t have to mean a full boat official SMS, but taking an interest in how organization safety could be improved, as in “I did these 3 things to help improve safety at my flight school”.

Doesn't SMS literally stand for Safety Management Systems?

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/genera ... s-aviation

Safety management systems (SMS) help companies identify safety risks before they become bigger problems. Transport Canada regulations require the aviation industry to put safety management systems in place as an extra layer of protection to help save lives.

[Heavy Rayn]

This comes down to relevant experience. 500 hours TT, of which 250+ was in the right seat of a king air makes for a better candidate for pasco than a 500 TT instructor, hence them asking for 1000 TT from instructors.

I also haven’t (for the most part) noticed the above stated attitudes in instructors either. Maybe I’m biased because I was an instructor at one point as well. The instructors I get in the right seat next to me are typically excited to learn a new style of operation and are just happy to be in the part 7 world. Maybe I’ve been lucky so far.

[PropDog]

Honestly, who cares? So you have to flight instruct for 14 months instead of 6 months?
I’ve seen some really great flight instructors adapt really well to large turboprops. I’ve seen many who are downright awful and clearly not prepared.
If you’re really miffed that badly that they want you to get a whopping 500 more hours before flying a turboprop in Western Canada then just don’t apply there.
They’re not saying they won’t hire flight instructors. They’re not asking for flight instructors to have some ridiculous amount of time. It’s 500 hours for someone with time in a similar operation vs someone with 1000 hours flying in an operation that isn’t remotely the same.
This is laughable. Grow up, put in the work, or go somewhere else. Stop taking it personally and do what it takes.

[Me262]

haha, pasco dropped their time from 750 to 500hrs? But they pay so well! (40k/year, 50k only after first year/1000TT).

I did an interview with them, never heard back anything after providing all the documentation this summer. All for the best, since I got a much better offer in the end.

[CaptDukeNukem]

haha, pasco dropped their time from 750 to 500hrs? But they pay so well! (40k/year, 50k only after first year/1000TT).

I did an interview with them, never heard back anything after providing all the documentation this summer. All for the best, since I got a much better offer in the end.

Congrats! Is it jazz?

[Me262]

haha, pasco dropped their time from 750 to 500hrs? But they pay so well! (40k/year, 50k only after first year/1000TT).

I did an interview with them, never heard back anything after providing all the documentation this summer. All for the best, since I got a much better offer in the end.

Congrats! Is it jazz?

That's right. And I feel really lucky catching the 50%+ increase. I can't imagine having to live in a big city with only 40k that used to be (and still is with Pasco). I guess sleep in the car? Besides the pay, no wonder Pasco is short on pilots when, besides pay, they are asking for all your documents - a few days after the interview - then no longer send you anything (offer or even PFO). They forgot? Went on vacation? Why bother asking for documents unless you were successful in the interview? (Pasco even does 2 interviews, not only one)

I also don't get the bad rep Jazz is getting vs alternatives. Since everyone is leaving for AC, that means your seniority will increase at a very fast pace. So good schedule and pairings in a short time. And for my personal needs, the payscale looks really good for when upgrading to capt, and it will only get better with future MOS's. So I see myself staying for the long term. Since AC or WJ is the end game for most, I imagine the seniority gain is at a brutal snailpace speed.

Out of all airlines that would hire with under 1000hrs, Jazz in my books is currently the best, even better than Encore since they pay more, you have the option of flying jets and you have 4 bases to choose from vs only 1.

[CaptDukeNukem]

haha, pasco dropped their time from 750 to 500hrs? But they pay so well! (40k/year, 50k only after first year/1000TT).

I did an interview with them, never heard back anything after providing all the documentation this summer. All for the best, since I got a much better offer in the end.

Congrats! Is it jazz?

That's right. And I feel really lucky catching the 50%+ increase. I can't imagine having to live in a big city with only 40k that used to be (and still is with Pasco). I guess sleep in the car? Besides the pay, no wonder Pasco is short on pilots when, besides pay, they are asking for all your documents - a few days after the interview - then no longer send you anything (offer or even PFO). They forgot? Went on vacation? Why bother asking for documents unless you were successful in the interview? (Pasco even does 2 interviews, not only one)

I also don't get the bad rep Jazz is getting vs alternatives. Since everyone is leaving for AC, that means your seniority will increase at a very fast pace. So good schedule and pairings in a short time. And for my personal needs, the payscale looks really good for when upgrading to capt, and it will only get better with future MOS's. So I see myself staying for the long term. Since AC or WJ is the end game for most, I imagine the seniority gain is at a brutal snailpace speed.

Out of all airlines that would hire with under 1000hrs, Jazz in my books is currently the best, even better than Encore since they pay more, you have the option of flying jets and you have 4 bases to choose from vs only 1.

I’m happy you’re happy. Best of luck at jazz.

[CaptDukeNukem]

When’s your GS date at jazz? Do you know what base and equipment you’re on?

[dontcallmeshirley]

When an instructor logs 50 hours, they're only actually in control for a total of 1 hour. The vast majority of instruction time is monitoring.

As a former instructor, I would agree that hands on time is more valuable than time spent sitting, watching, and teaching theory.

[Turbofanprop]

Pacific Coastal keeping up the false line that flight instructors are the lesser of pilots

You don't want to work for a company with this management,
Time for ALPA votes - WJ pilots will back you




• 500 hours Total Time*

*Preference given to candidates with a type rating, multi crew, multi engine, IFR, and/or turbine experience in 600/702/703/704/705 or military operations. Flight Instructor candidates should expect consideration with 1000+ hours total time experience.

viewtopic.php?t=202899

Long time lurker first time poster, this is funny

So yes, when it comes to flying the line in ice and in jet a burners or large pistons flying pax, often in weather flight schools wouldnt fly in, and at altitude and locations 172s don’t go yes you are less of a pilot for that mission

Now if I was going to have my niece learn to fly, a guy flying single pilot charters in the north would be LESS of a pilot than someone who instructs all day in a 172

It’s called relevant experience

And times money, sure they could train the 172 instructor up, but it’s a ton easier to spool up a guy who was doing more or less the same job before he got hired (duh)

Now here’s the part I don’t like, you say who would want to fly for them, but apparently you REALLY REALLY want to fly for them as you then mention trying to use unions to strong arm them into hiring you.

As the saying goes “he’s just not that into you”

Trying for force ANY type of relationship is as creepy as it is foolish, you two have different opinions on what experience is important, they should be free to hire who has what they want, as you are free go work for who values what you have. Freemarket is a beautiful thing, and when left alone it cuts through all BS like a scalpel


*I should note I have a huge amount of instruction given time and still instruct even though I don’t remotely need the hours and I’m comfortable money wise

[Fly0nTheWall]

When an instructor logs 50 hours, they're only actually in control for a total of 1 hour. The vast majority of instruction time is monitoring.

As a former instructor, I would agree that hands on time is more valuable than time spent sitting, watching, and teaching theory.

So for comparison, how much time do you spend hand flying at a 704/705? In a two crew environment one pilot is literally called the Pilot Monitoring. Maybe they should be hiring more instructors since instructors seem to have more relevant experience

[digits_]

When an instructor logs 50 hours, they're only actually in control for a total of 1 hour. The vast majority of instruction time is monitoring.

As a former instructor, I would agree that hands on time is more valuable than time spent sitting, watching, and teaching theory.

So for comparison, how much time do you spend hand flying at a 704/705? In a two crew environment one pilot is literally called the Pilot Monitoring. Maybe they should be hiring more instructors since instructors seem to have more relevant experience

On the other hand, instructors joining with 1000 hours will be paid more than 500 hour hires. So they're actually valuing instructor experience more

[Me262]

When’s your GS date at jazz? Do you know what base and equipment you’re on?

8 jan. You don't get to know the base or type until GS starts.

[Turbofanprop]

When an instructor logs 50 hours, they're only actually in control for a total of 1 hour. The vast majority of instruction time is monitoring.

As a former instructor, I would agree that hands on time is more valuable than time spent sitting, watching, and teaching theory.

No


Flying turboprops and jets as a capt and as a training capt, most its on AP, which we d/c for landing, obviously t/o and the very rare g/a is hand flown, outside from that minus a oddball automation issue it’s AP YD

Back when I full time instructed, and now doing some on the side, I’ll probably demo a landing and take off, or help here and there, in pre solo stage I’ll knock out a touch and go almost every .1, now add to that if I demo and have to help every 1 in 10 and the average lesson is 1.5, I might be more hands on instructing compared to the jet

In cruise we monitoring the AP or my experienced and qualed FO, this is easier then monitoring and TEACHING my student flying a XC, at least if you are a active and involved teacher

So this argument is not valid, one type of flying isn’t better or harder than the other, they are simply just different

[Hangry]

Instructors have zero operationally valid experience. Doesn’t mean it can’t be learned. The skills you gain instructing can absolutely benefit your career but let’s not pretend they have “real” experience.

That’s gained when you actually fly.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Instructors have zero operationally valid experience. Doesn’t mean it can’t be learned. The skills you gain instructing can absolutely benefit your career but let’s not pretend they have “real” experience.

That’s gained when you actually fly.

Disagree. Instructors have to constantly assess and for lack of a better word “babysit”. Yes, they may not be holding the yoke, but have to exercise good decision making and seeing the “big picture”. It’s equally if not more valuable than a king air FO who can hold it straight and level for 7 hours a day. Time is time.